Leni Riefenstahl passes on

[PFunkJazz]

or protest too much anyway!

[Joe G]

Calm down PFunk! I don't think a "closet Nazi" would write a book about Bessie Smith for goodness sakes.

[PFunkJazz]

Well, anything is possible. But no, not likely, I admit.

But have you read it?

ParanoidFunkJazz

[PFunkJazz]

Have to go offline for 12 hours. Keep on keepin on. Check you tomorrow.

[Christiern]

Chris it is true what couw said, she never did seem remorseful.

It is I'm sure also true what you say about many being suckered into support of the Nazis. However, you would think the ones suckered would make it a point to say so.

She may not have seemed remorseful--in fact, she may not have been remorseful. If so, that is certainly regrettable, but it does not erase nor diminish her talent for film making. Then, too, it is just possible that her later film activity in Africa was a way of showing remorse.

My point is that people make mistakes and I have no doubt but that she came to regard her association with Hitler as such--I just hope that she regretted for the right reasons.

BTW, I bet Mr. funk posts using a computer with lots of Japanese-made components, he may even drive a Japanese or German car, or eat Italian food (sorry ). We cannot go through life pointing fingers and perpetually hating people about whom we really know very little.

[Son-of-a-Weizen]

My widowed mother has had a boyfriend for the past 5 years (good for her!) who was drafted in Germany at age 16 in 1943 and sent to the Russian front. Luckily for him he was captured and held by the U.S. as a prisoner of war.

My father dodged that particular conscription 'bullet' by about 3 years (although he was strafed by U.S. fighters on the roadway and almost shot by a sentry) ....but his older cousin wound up on the Eastern Front and was captured by the Russians. Miraculously, he was among the few that were returned in the mid-50's but died soon thereafter for obvious reasons. God that was some ghastly business out there..... Paul Carell's "Hitler Moves East" (covers opening of the Barbarosa campaign up through Stalingrad) and "Scorched Earth" (Kursk in '43 up through mid-'44) pretty much sums it up.

[catesta]

My point is that people make mistakes and I have no doubt but that she came to regard her association with Hitler as such--I just hope that she regretted for the right reasons.

People are often not willing to forget the past mistakes of others. We see examples of that, and discuss it almost everyday.

I don't know enough about her other work to comment one way or another. So I can only hope you are correct and she did regret (for the right reasons) her association with Hitler.

It's going to be tough for her to answer the question now.

[The Mule]

Chris, I understand what you're saying and think the dichotomy between the artist and their art is a fascinating subject. However, we're not talking about "Miles Davis beat his wives and yet he as capable of such beautiful music" here.

Once again, Leni Reifenstahl was a Nazi-sympathizer and career opportunist who created a ghastly work of propaganda that indirectly led to the slaughter of tens of millions. When Fritz Lang was approached by the Nazis and basically offered a blank check to become Hitler's propagandist, he was appalled and fled to America. Reifenstahl saw an opportunity and she seized it. In my mind, Lang was the greater person and a greater filmmaker.

TRIUMPH OF THE WILL continues to inspire hatred today (the same goes for BIRTH OF A NATION which was often screened by Klansmen right before lynchings of blacks in the south). The woman NEVER apologized or even expressed regret. In interview after interview there was a disconnect in her mind between her film and what it represented. She was either too proud or arrogant or still too much of an "Aryan" to ever grapple with her contribution to fascism and the subsequent horrors.

Nothing of what I've seen of her subsequent work redeems her or TRIUMPH OF THE WILL.

btw, please DO NOT associate me with PFunkJazz's obnoxious and uncalled for accusations of racism or Nazism.

[The Mule]

Furthermore, she was quoted just before her 100th birthday as saying, "I don't know what I should apologize for. I cannot apologize, for example, for having made the film "Triumph of the Will' --- It won the top prize. All my films won prizes."

That quote, at best, can be held up as an appalling example of tone-deafness. When I read that I see a woman who either still believes in the Third Reich or is so blindly arrogant, ambitious, and narcissistic she is undeserving of any respect. Not to mention incredibly callous.

[catesta]

Solid argument Mule.

Edited September 10, 2003 by catesta

[Christiern]

Solid argument, indeed.

And don't worry, Mule, your reasoned, mature posts to this thread put a very wide gap between you and funk. I had not heard the Riefenstahl quote from her 100th birthday--it certainly is very telling.

As you say, it is an interesting subject--where does one draw the line between a person's ideology and work? Is there a line to be drawn?

[The Mule]

As you say, it is an interesting subject--where does one draw the line between a person's ideology and work? Is there a line to be drawn?

I really do think it's a fascinating subject. As you well know, many great artists were pretty monsterous to the people around them and yet...

Is the act of artistic creation so difficult that the artist MUST be self-absorbed or narcissistic in order to create?

There's a book there Chris and if you don't write it, I might!

Edited September 10, 2003 by The Mule

[jacman]

i certainly feel no empathy for her. i do pity her. she was a great artist, but willingly used her art to further Nazi-ism. as she stated in her memoirs, she was captivated by Hitler, as were millions of other people.

Denial is not just a river in Egypt.

[jacman]

But it's true! Christiern looks like a dead ringer for the ex-Nazi author in Mel Brooks' movie The Producers! If it wasn't for his dodgy politics it would be funny. As it is, it's rather frightening.

well, that has to be the most hilarious post i've read in quite some time. i'll bet your dad can beat up Chris' dad too, Huh?

[Jazzmoose]

Many people--not just Germans--were suckered into support for or acceptance of the Nazis during the 1930s, that includes such highly regarded Americans as Lindbergh and Ford. Does that in any way diminish the former's accomplishment? Does it mean that we should not drive or ride in a Ford vehicle?

I hardly think Ford was "suckered". Given his propensity for antisemitism, and his dedication to spreading the Elders of Zion bullshit hit piece, I would imagine that what we consider Hitler's worst aspects would stand out as his best qualities in Henry Ford's mind...

[White Lightning]

Mark, Chris: My ford comment was in reply to the Mercedes/BMW comment. What I refered to is the well-established fact, yet very well hidden in the US that many AMERICAN corporation, inc. FORD had factories and subsidiaries within occupied Europe and THEY employed forced labor EXACTLY as those infamous German plants and factories. Everything you know about the mishaps to the forced labor in the German factories is exactly the same in those Americn factories - starvation, torture and thousands of deaths. But hey, Ford had the right connection after the American won the war...

The Mule: Your points are valid. In fact, as I mentioned my grandfather, whom I owe almost everything that I've beome, shared your point of views. Emotionally I feel the same. But I think that a total seperation between Art and an Artist should be made for the future of Art as a seperate as possible from the Artist's points of view.

That's why I think that the Qs - whether or not she knew about the Holocaust is irrelevant. Suppose she knew EXACTLY what was going on and she supported it wholeheartedly, and suppose that it will be proven beyong doubt that her work inspired the continuation of the killing of the Jews and others. I mean - let's suppose she indeed was the essense of evil. I still, as much as it will hurt me, would think that her art should be seperated of the artist.

[White Lightning]

off topic - What do you guy's reaction to Cat Stevens' music, now that he's called Yusuf Islam and he contributes some of the royalties to Hamas, Jihad, Iran etc.?

For me THAT's where I draw the line. I stopped listen to his music altogether, and I grew up on his music.

[The Mule]

I mean - let's suppose she indeed was the essense of evil. I still, as much as it will hurt me, would think that her art should be seperated of the artist.

Why?

In a general sense I might agree with separating the art from the artist (which is, in and of itself, a debate--Isn't it true that "who" the artist is, as a human being, informs the art?) EXCEPT when that art is in the service of irredeemable EVIL. TRIUMPH OF THE WILL is an evil film. It celebrates fascism, racism, anti-semitism, and presents Adolf Hitler as God. I don't care how ground-breaking or well made it was, it was created to promote EVIL. Indeed, because of it's high craft and seductive powers it fits the very definition of insidious.

Riefenstahl may not have known about the "Final Solution," but she sure as hell knew that the Nazi Party was virulently anti-semitic, racist, bent on world domination, and believed the German people to be the "master race." One has to assume that she was down with the program. Indeed, if you look at her work previous to her time with the Nazis, she sure seemed to extol Aryan virtues regardless.

Sorry, but Fritz Lang got on the next boat to America when the Nazis came to him and that's what any human being who didn't believe in the Third Reich should have done.

Why, then, should history NOT harshly judge this woman who used her immense talents to promote one of the most hateful and vile regimes the world has ever seen?

btw, your Cat Stevens analogy isn't the same thing at all. Cat Stevens may or may not be financially supporting Islamic fundamentalist terrorism--I don't know. What he ISN'T doing is writing and singing catchy little songs extolling the virtues of brave Islamic terrorists killing Israelis and Americans. Leni Riefenstahl wasn't a Nazi party member who made great melodramas. If that were the case I might agree that one should separate her poltics from her work. What Riefenstahl did--consciously--was make fascism and Adolf Hitler look RIGHT. Correct. Worthy. Justified. Appealing. She exhalted EVIL in her ART.

Edited September 10, 2003 by The Mule

[Jazzmoose]

Barak, I haven't listened to Cat Stevens since he announced that yes, Rushdie should be killed. Admittedly, listening to his music at this point would be more of a nostalgia thing than anything else, but I seem to be able to give up that particular pleasure quite easily...

[White Lightning]

Mule, If seperating art and artist sounds reasonable enough to you, then the question is where do you draw the line where that seperation is not in order. How About R.Strauss who was a member of the Nazi party? Or Wagner, who supported and believed in Aryan supremecy, his music was composed as such and was an idol to Hitler?

For me, this is a slippery slide. I don't wish Radio stations to stop playing a certain artist just because he expressed some anti-American opinions, for example.

So where do you draw the line?

I don't know how to draw that line, since I'm aware that my sensitivities are different than others. I know that my line (see above post) is just that - MY line. Othersdraw it elsewhere. But I'm thinking about a public policy, not an individual one. Say in NPR etc. Because I try to find an objective definition of when this line is drawn, and the only definition that I can come up with that will maintain the art of people who oppose/support Bush, or Sharon, or Arafat or whatever is:

Complete seperation of Art and artist unless the artist uses the money/publicity to directly and openly support actual human right violation.

Needless to say, anyone, however, is free to boycott whatever artist he wishes to because of the artist's views/beliefs etc.

[The Mule]

I draw the line at art that intentionally, explicitly, and insidiously promotes a philosophy of hate.

I don't think it's that slippery a slope.

[maren]

Leni Riefenstahl wasn't a Nazi party member who made great melodramas. If that were the case I might agree that one should separate her poltics from her work.

Mule, your post before you edited it was already hinting at this point -- and now you've hit the nail on the head! She was making propaganda. With great production values. (Pretty much the same holds true for Birth of a Nation, IMO -- even though it is a melodrama, both the author and DW Griffith had a propagandistic agenda).

Ezra Pound's poems, Wagner's/Richard Strauss's operas -- to me, they're more genuinely works of art -- I understand and accept both the people who are moved by the art, and the people whose awareness of the artists' moral failings has the upper hand in their aesthetic response to the work. Furtwangler's conducting, Elisabeth Schwarzkopf's singing -- there, for me it's more a case of a personal emotional boycott of someone who, whether out of ideology or opportunism, cozied up to an evil regime. They made beautiful music, but so did other people, who I'll pay more attention to.

Strauss, though -- there are melodies that I want to hear, want to know. I don't hold the melodies responsible, and somehow find it easy to separate them from him! Wagner, on the other hand, there's something queasily fascistic about a lot of it for me! Or like aural heroin or opium or something -- sort of feels like scary poison to me -- and it sounded like that to me even before I knew about how much Hitler loved him or that Wagner himself wrote horrible anti-Semitic tracts.

And then, what about a melody itself getting hijacked?? (I'm just ruminating here, not saying anything dogmatic.) Haydn wrote a beautiful tune, a hymn to protect the Emperor (you know, like "God Save the Queen" and "God Bless America"). And then string quartet variations on it. And then -- someone set the words "Deutschland uber Alles" to it (meaning "I'll set Germany above everything", not "Germany will rule everything") -- really a lump-in-the-throat sweet melody -- the poor tune didn't deserve to be used like that!!! But it feels a little radioactive now -- it had such a power, but someone used it for evil. I'm not kidding. I love the song, and I feel bad for it -- but I think it needs not to be sung too much for a long time.

[chris olivarez]

off topic - What do you guy's reaction to Cat Stevens' music, now that he's called Yusuf Islam and he contributes some of the royalties to Hamas, Jihad, Iran etc.?

For me THAT's where I draw the line. I stopped listen to his music altogether, and I grew up on his music.

I didn't like the sob then and if that's how he's spending his money then I don't like him now.

[chris olivarez]

As great as an artistic statement as this might have been it would never have seen the light of day unless it had Joseph Goebbels approval. She might not have dropped the Zyklon B into the receptacles and she might not have sent the Wehrmacht,Luftwaffe and Kriegsmarine out to do their monstorous work but she knew.The woman obviously wasn't stupid and she understood how things worked in the Reich. She knew.

[PFunkJazz]

Christiern's photo on the Members page makes him look like the ex-Nazi author in Mel Brooks' movie The Producers.

Really. Check it out.

Creepy or what?