Herb Ellis - Verve LP

[mikeb]

Can someone give me a line-up and track listing for the Herb Ellis self-titled Verve LP MGV 8278? AMG lists it from 1957. I'm wondering if this has seen the light of day on disc under a different title.

Thank you!

[Jim R]

According to Michel Ruppli'e Verve discography, 8278 was not released. The session (Oct. 11, 1957 in L.A.) was released on NOTHING BUT THE BLUES (8252):

Roy Eldridge, Stan Getz, Ellis, Ray Brown, Stan Levey

patti cake, blues for janet, big red's boogie woogie, tin roof blues, royal garden blues, blues for junior, soft winds, pap's blues

[mikeb]

Thanks Jim!

[DrJ]

GREAT album, that NOTHING BUT THE BLUES!

[Larry Kart]

Great on paper maybe, but I've always found it rather artificially heated and "off" in some way, as though the twanginess of Ellis' conception of the blues, combined with Getz's hardbreathing attempt to be even bluesier and more twangy (if you can be twangy on the tenor saxophone, Getz does it here), led the whole thing to curdle. Also, Stan Levey's typically mircoscopic ride cymbal beat, which I like a lot in other contexts, is not what was needed here. Maybe someone like Gus Johnson would have saved things.

[paul secor]

I've always liked this record, and listened to it again today. I hear some of what you're saying, Lawrence, but it still sounds good to me.

[JSngry]

As a rule, I enjoy Herb Ellis more when I think of him as a REALLY hip Western Swing player than as a jazz musician. An irrelevant distinction, perhaps, but it puts that very real twanginess into a better, more listenable, perspective for me. Barney Kessell's from Oklahoma too, shares a lot of common roots, but he sounds a lot more "pure" jazz than Ellis ever did. Just an observation, not a value judgement one way or the other.

So, like, was Herb Ellis a pioneer of Fusion in this regard?

[DrJ]

Exactly, Jim hits it. Ellis WAS coming out of that Western swing background, so his sound feels perfectly natural and uncontrived to me, and I dig it - sounded different than just about any other jazz guitarist out there. And Getz, well, I don't hear him playing artificially in any way. And Eldridge is a pleasure on any occasion. NOTHING BUT THE BLUES is a winner all around to me.

Edited September 15, 2003 by DrJ

[JSngry]

Well, honestly, I don't dig Ellis all THAT much. But I dig him MORE when I think of him as a Western Swing player. Not a knock on him, he's an "honest" player, just my personal tastes. I don't DISlike him ever, I just tend to turn elsewhere for jazz guitar. But I don't scream in horror when I hear him either, if you know what I mean.

OTOH, I'm quite sympathetic to complaints about Getz' playing from this time. Seems like he was either sublime or ridiculous, and it was a crapshoot as to which it was gonna be on any given date. Lots of times it sounds to me like he was just role-playing - blues on demand, if you will. Again, just the way it strikes me, and I WILL leave the room, if not screaming in horror, when this type of Getz comes on. For the other kind, I will CLEAR the room if I have to in order to have it all to myself without distraction.

It would be really easy to blame Norman Granz for all this, but myself, I tend to blame Oscar Peterson, even if that's cliched and over-simplistic. Somehow, it seems to fit. Twangity-splangity-fleep-floop-doo. Leave no third or fifth unflatted and/or unbent, it's the house rule.

But anybody ever says a bad word about Roy Eldrige, even his "excitabilty", well...God'll get ya' for that, Walter!

Edited September 15, 2003 by JSngry

[Larry Kart]

I like Herb Ellis a fair amount of time -- especially once in-person in the mid-'80s, when he was away from the O. Peterson orbit (BTW, Jim, "Twangity-splangity-fleep-floop-doo" is pure genius) -- but on Nothing But the Blues to my ears he and even more so Getz seem to be trying so damn hard. There are couple of places where Stan almost brays like a mule. My guess is that Roy's macho presence kind of freaked him out.

[JSngry]

-- but on Nothing But the Blues to my ears he and even more so Getz seem to be trying so damn hard. There are couple of places where Stan almost brays like a mule. My guess is that Roy's macho presence kind of freaked him out.

Getz had his own blues, DEEP blues. He didn't need to play anybody else's.

Guess it took him a while to fully accept that...

[DrJ]

Well, to each their own. I don't hear Getz as a distraction here (although I agree he could sound forced and stiff at times - just don't feel it applies here).

Ellis sounds like his usual self here, too. Not a personal favorite of mine either, but I do enjoy him on occasion and respect what he was about.

My only real knock on this particular session is that nothing but the blues turned out to be just a little TOO MUCH of the blues...a sameness sets in after a while that doesn't sit well with me, I would have preferred a slightly more varied program although I know that wasn't what he was after.

FWIW, I also really dig Ellis' contributions to the MEETS JIMMY GIUFFRE Verve date that was released as an Elite Edition some time ago. There was a mutual, understated folksiness there that made for a great pairing despite some other pretty major differences in concept.

[Larry Kart]

There's some wonderful, utterly relaxed and genuine, Getz blues playing on this album, maybe one of the earliest where he really got things together in that area:

The Soft Swing  (Verve MGV 8321)

Stan Getz (ts) Mose Allison (p) Addison Farmer (B) Jerry Segal (d)

NYC, July 12, 1957

All the Things You Are, Pocono Mac, Down Beat, To the Ends of the Earth, Bye Blues

There's some superb stoptime playing from Stan on both blues (Pocono Mac and Down Beat), the whole thing just a lovely day in the studio. Don't see that it's out on CD in the U.S. right now, but it probably was/is out in Japan.

[DrJ]

I dig that one too, Lawrence, have it on CD-R thanks to a kind soul from the board. Surprised it hasn't been reissued here lately, but given the popularity of Getz and Universal's track record I'm sure it's just a matter of time.

[Chuck Nessa]

Sorry but I have a huge problem getting past what I hear as a really ugly tone. Ellis's name is usually an "exit sign" for me. Sidemen override this sometimes, and I've met him (he's an amazingly nice guy). I just hate his tone.

[Jim R]

As much of a jazz guitar hound as I am, I've never really cared a great deal for Ellis either. Jim's comments above pretty well sum it up for me, and although his sound isn't the only thing about his work that I don't care for, that is part of it for me as well. As with a lot of guitarists (but certainly not all), he changed his equipment a few times over the years. The more he changed it (going from the single coil type pickup on his old Gibson ES-175 to a humbucker, and then giving up the Gibson altogether, and signing an endorsement deal with a Japanese maker), the worse it got, to my ears.

I don't necessarily avoid his work, I just don't seek it out like I do with a lot of guitarists. I did pick up his "Conversations In Swing Guitar" CD's (with Duke Robillard), for when I'm in the mood for some down-home bluesy swing. I like 'em mainly because of Duke, though... B)

[Brad]

Well, I've played this a couple of times lately and I have to agree with the observations or criticisisms if they can be called such. His sound is very twangy, sometimes very close to blues guitar or a folksy style. I wouldn't rate him as my favorite (I'd have to go with GG there). However, I do like Getz here, as well as Eldridge. Those two make this date for me.

[Joe G]

Well, honestly, I don't dig Ellis all THAT much. But I dig him MORE when I think of him as a Western Swing player. Not a knock on him, he's an "honest" player, just my personal tastes. I don't DISlike him ever, I just tend to turn elsewhere for jazz guitar. But I don't scream in horror when I hear him either, if you know what I mean.

Just out of curiosity Jim, where do you turn for jazz guitar?

[JSngry]

Just out of curiosity Jim, where do you turn for jazz guitar?

The usual places - Django, Christian, Kessell, Burrell, Hall, Montgomery, Green, Benson, Martino, McLaughlin, Ulmer, Sharrock, as well as some other less "name brand" players like Atilla Zoller & Bern Nix. No doubt I'm leaving some names out.

What I said was an attempt at politeness, of saying that Ellis is not one of my favorites. Nothing wrong with him, it's just that as a rule he just doesn't grab me where I like to be grabbed . We all got our special places, doncha'know.

[Joe G]

Hey that's cool, I wasn't bustin' your chops; just hadn't seen you post much about guitarists in the past, and was hoping that you weren't one of those jazz guys that hate the guitar in jazz! Glad to see that's not the case.

[JSngry]

Nah man. I actually prefer guitar to piano in a chordal setting unless it's a choice between a REALLY good pianist and a not so good guitarist. It's a more open sound, and I like that.

Big splashy cymbal whooshes, nice open chords, and a groovin', loose bassist. That's how I like playing changes!

[Larry Kart]

Django and Christian, in classes of their own. Grant Green is Grant Green. Otherwise, Jimmy Raney, in the top group of improvisers regardless of instrument (and an influence on Green, to complete the circle).

[DrJ]

Farlow and Smith

[Larry Kart]

Oops. Yes, Farlow, too. BTW, I heard him live in the mid-'80s in Chicago, with a bassist (probably Larry Grey) and a good boppish drummer (Robert Shy), and he was in a place that seemed to be a fair bit beyond anything I'd heard on record from him, incredibly fluid in thought and articulation, virtually Tatumesque, and with a good deal broader range in dynamics and touch, all sorts of expressive shadings as seen from an express train. In fact, the speed and intensity of meaningful musical events that night seemed to me to be at or close to the limit of what the human mind (or at least my mind) could assimilate. I got the feeling that what I heard was not the result of the fairly common difference between live and studio musical selves (the great Farlow material taped in Ed Fuerst's apartment is not stylistically different from studio Farlow of the time) but rather of a late-ish development in his overall musical approach that, as far as I know, was not documented on record.

[DrJ]

Good possibility, Lawrence. I never got a chance to see Farlow play, but do agree that what you hear on Farlow's "classic" recordings for Verve, excellent though it was, sounds like the potential tip of the iceberg. And there are times his music sounded mechanical and lacking in dynamics, although I wonder how much of that was the often unsympathetic sound his recordings had in that era.

Much as I love Farlow's playing, I might give the edge to Johnny Smith. He wasn't as consistent in terms of the quality of the settings he placed himself in, but he actually sounded more fully developed and mature in his playing in the 50's than Farlow. I find his coming at it from a little less of a diehard bopper's angle kind of refreshing too - he strikes me as a very natural, melodic player. Too bad he ended up laying so low.