A Lark Ascending Posted September 12, 2003 Report Posted September 12, 2003 Jazzmoose, No intention on my part to criticise you personally. I enjoy your enthusiastic and informative posts. My point was very specific to the criticism of AAJ, a case for the defence. Nothing more. Apologies if it came over a bit stronger than intended. Quote
Guest Chaney Posted September 12, 2003 Report Posted September 12, 2003 I ask this question only for the controversy: Does this board really need more women? If yes, why? Quote
JSngry Posted September 12, 2003 Report Posted September 12, 2003 With all the talk about a "gentlemen's club," no one has asked what to me, a woman, seems like a glaringly obvious question: Where are the women on this board? There seem to be very few, and frankly, y'all seem to like that just fine. It may be that such threads as The Babe Thread--and a "we're all guys" tone in general--tend to make women feel unwelcome here. Again frankly, it seems as if some of you would rather ogle fantasy women than maintain an atmosphere in which you could interact with real women. I can speak only for myself, but what you "see" is what you get. Yeah, I like the Babe thread, but I'm not afraid to poke fun at it either. Part of it appeals to the horndog in me, and part of it brings out the evolved male in me and makes me want to post a picture of Babe Ruth. I'm comfortable with both aspects of my self. I don't try to intentionally offend. Usually, anyway... This place is about fun and jazz for me, and those are two areas that I feel totally comfortable approaching from both a humorous and a serious perspective. sometimes even both at once. That's who I am, so that's who I am. Personally, I don't care if more women post here. I don't care if more men post here either. If somebody likes to have fun, if they like jazz, and it they are secure enough to go with what and who they are, then cool. Welcome aboard. If not, well, this place might not be a good fit. "One size fits all" is a myth! This ain't really a restaurant, it's more of a potluck in a lunchroom. As a rule, the Organissimo philosophy as it has been evolving is a simple one - if you don't like what you see on the table, bring something from home and pass it around to see how it goes over. I don't bite, and I'm not a rapist. I'm a 47 year old father of two who's been totally monogamous for the last 22+ years. I know who I am, and I know who I'm not, and really don't see the need, usually, to go too far out of my way to prove it either way. In fact, I'm trying too hard just making this post! Quote
Templejazz Posted September 12, 2003 Report Posted September 12, 2003 Just now: Blue Note board - Cannot find server AAJ board - cannot find server Jazz Corner - cannot find server Plus everyone named John dying. Something weird is going on. Perhaps they are getting set to put the new BNBB back online and had to take down the entire site for a couple hours.... Quote
Jazzmoose Posted September 12, 2003 Report Posted September 12, 2003 (edited) Not a problem, Bev; I should have known that. (Edited to point out that the quote feature can be quite useful when the posts are coming fast and furious! Oh, well...) Edited September 12, 2003 by Jazzmoose Quote
Christiern Posted September 12, 2003 Author Report Posted September 12, 2003 (edited) I can only repeat the fundamental question: Where are the women on this board? Pixels can be deceptive, Rita! Edited September 12, 2003 by Christiern Quote
Guest Chaney Posted September 12, 2003 Report Posted September 12, 2003 And full disclosure re babe threads: Back in April, I started a poll / thread on the Hoffman forum in response to a babe thread: TOP BABE: Non-Tart Category -- In conjunction with the fine polling work of Michael, I though I'd start another - this one dealing with women both beautiful and intelligent. Quote
uli Posted September 12, 2003 Report Posted September 12, 2003 I'm comfortable at JazzCorner, which has always had quite a few active female posters and which recently acquired a bunch of new female posters, including a couple of very young 'uns. BN, you will have me convinced when the minions will have female members. Quote
JSngry Posted September 12, 2003 Report Posted September 12, 2003 Just now: Blue Note board - Cannot find server AAJ board - cannot find server Jazz Corner - cannot find server Plus everyone named John dying. Something weird is going on. The Rapture? Quote
Simon Weil Posted September 12, 2003 Report Posted September 12, 2003 I ask this question only for the controversy: Does this board really need more women? If yes, why? OK, if it's directed at me, my line was "Jazz needs more women". Because: 1) Jazz playing on a high level has always been dominated by men. If we had more women, we'd have more talent. 2) The "Jazz fan" is archetypally male. If we had more female fans, we'd have more fans. Ergo Jazz would have more financial etc resources. 3) I am pissed off with testoterone. In general, the more places that women feel at home in within Jazz, the more are liable to commit in a meaningful way. If they do it here, that's part of the way there. 4) Anyway, I just think women get a raw deal in society. Simon Weil Quote
Jazzmoose Posted September 12, 2003 Report Posted September 12, 2003 I ask this question only for the controversy: Does this board really need more women? If yes, why? "Need"? No, I guess not. But it seems to me that the more contributors we have to discuss jazz, the better off we are. More viewpoints give us a more complete picture. Besides, even Mars needs more women! (Just not Pia Zadora, please...) Quote
Guest Chaney Posted September 12, 2003 Report Posted September 12, 2003 The Rapture? OH CRAP! I'm much too busy right now to find god and be born again! Can it wait 'til the weekend? Quote
Jazzmoose Posted September 12, 2003 Report Posted September 12, 2003 Wow...you can sure tell when the other boards go down; this place starts filling up! Quote
bluenoter Posted September 12, 2003 Report Posted September 12, 2003 (edited) BN, you will have me convinced when the minions will have female members. Uli--I'm not one of your dreaded "lowercase" (eai) minions, but before Steve Reynolds disappeared, I considered myself a fledgling minion of his, and he himself dubbed me an official minion. Edited September 12, 2003 by bluenoter Quote
JSngry Posted September 12, 2003 Report Posted September 12, 2003 (edited) I ask this question only for the controversy: Does this board really need more women? If yes, why? OK, if it's directed at me, my line was "Jazz needs more women". Because: 1) Jazz playing on a high level has always been dominated by men. If we had more women, we'd have more talent. 2) The "Jazz fan" is archetypally male. If we had more female fans, we'd have more fans. Ergo Jazz would have more financial etc resources. 3) I am pissed off with testoterone. In general, the more places that women feel at home in within Jazz, the more are liable to commit in a meaningful way. If they do it here, that's part of the way there. 4) Anyway, I just think women get a raw deal in society. Simon Weil OK... 1- We already have enough "talent". What we need is more, as you called it, "high level" talent, and that's not a function of gender. If the argument is that having more women active in jazz increases the chances of finding that high-level talent, then I agree. But if it's that there's this VAST untapped pool of superior female talent, then I ain't buying it. High level talent is high level precisely because it's rare. Do we need more Geri Allens? Hell yeah. Are we right to assume that more females will display the talent of Geri Allen than will the same number of men? Hell no. 2- Perhaps. But perhaps we'd have more jazzcentric relationships, marriages, and families. And families cost money. There goes the records and the clubbing! What we need are more jazz fans of both genders who refuse to commit to anything but the music. Bring in the pods, I say! 3- Hey, I'm pissed off with having to eat to stay alive, but whatcha' gonna do? Best to learn to control it and enjoy it responsibly and maturely rather than curse it, since it's not going away anytime soon. 4- No rebuttal, just wanted to finish the list. But just like anybody, ANYBODY else, sometimes the raw deal is your own fault to some degree, and sometimes it's not. Glancing over that does far more harm than good when it comes time to try and right a real wrong, one in which the wronged is truly and totally blameless. Edited September 12, 2003 by JSngry Quote
JSngry Posted September 12, 2003 Report Posted September 12, 2003 The Rapture? OH CRAP! I'm much too busy right now to find god and be born again! Can it wait 'til the weekend? Dude, this IS the weekend... Quote
Simon Weil Posted September 12, 2003 Report Posted September 12, 2003 I ask this question only for the controversy: Does this board really need more women? If yes, why? OK, if it's directed at me, my line was "Jazz needs more women". Because: 1) Jazz playing on a high level has always been dominated by men. If we had more women, we'd have more talent. .... OK... 1- We already have enough "talent". What we need is more, as you called it, "high level" talent, and that's not a function of gender. If the argument is that having more women active in jazz increases the chances of finding that high-level talent, then I agree. But if it's that there's this VAST untapped pool of superior female talent, then I ain't buying it. High level talent is high level precisely because it's rare. Do we need more Geri Allens? Hell yeah. Are we right to assume that more females will display the talent of Geri Allen than will the same number of men? Hell no.... I am on the Jazzgrrls list and I remember this one discussion where a woman teacher mused that there seemed more females playing jazz at the school band level than males - and where did they go? So I drew the conclusion that she felt women were put off. This is before talent even enters into it. Just put off. She talked about "being tough enough", like women were put off by rather testosterone driven hard-nosed competition - so that, implicitly, otherwise talented women got put off by the vibe in Jazz. There are more female instrumentalists, stars, in classical music - where, I suggest, the vibe is quite different. Not a good thing, in my opinion. Simon Weil Quote
A Lark Ascending Posted September 12, 2003 Report Posted September 12, 2003 I'm very much with Simon on this one. Women do approach most areas of life differently from men. Get a significant number of women playing jazz and we'll get an increasing diversity of jazz. I'm very much for that. Quote
JSngry Posted September 12, 2003 Report Posted September 12, 2003 (edited) Jazz came from a tough environment, and it still resides in one, all efforts to change that notwithstanding. The die has long been cast in that regard. If anybody quits, that's THEIR decision as to what their priorities are, and there is no disgrace in backing off when the struggle seems greater than the eventualk reward. Although I certainly believe that women in jazz have to jump through more hoops than men (and I do believe that that is fundamentally wrong), the bottom line is that EVERYBODY has to jump through quite a few hoops in this music. If women have to "get tougher" in order to survive, so what? Truthfully, the women I most admire have, as a rule, been emotionally tougher than most of the men I admire, not because of some competitiveness, but because it was either do or die, sink or swim. Grit, tenacity, and a refusal to let life beat you down are NOT bad qualities in my book. "No pain, no gain" rings totally hollow when the pain is self-inflicted (see the hideous "tortured artist"), but as a natural character trait, it rates quite high on my list of desireable qualities. Honestly, I think that's the way it should be. Just put everybody through the same changes to get there. But don't take away the very thing that gives the music so much of it's basic character just so that more people can play it. Like I said, we don't need more people playing it, we need more people playing it WELL, and that can only come from trial, struggle, perseverance, defeats, and then and only then, triumph. Unless there's a need for more Anrde Previns, and I for one don't think there is. Edited September 12, 2003 by JSngry Quote
JSngry Posted September 12, 2003 Report Posted September 12, 2003 Oh yeah - when I talk about "toughness", I most assuredly do NOT mean exclusively the stereotypical "macho" brand of same. If that's who you are, fine, go with that. But "toughness" is a trait, not a style, and it comes in many, MANY forms. It is definitely not limited to one gender-specific manifestation. Just wanted to make that clear. Quote
Simon Weil Posted September 12, 2003 Report Posted September 12, 2003 OK, I'll make a sort of political statement. I think there is a particular sort of societal interplay that exists between men and revolves around a structured competition in which everything can get quite aggressive, and indeed is required to do so. People go at it hammer and tongs. But, within that, there is a realisation that this is some sort of game - a testoterone-driven game. And this is particulary suited to men because of the way we are constituted. To me, that is a core element of society. But it's hard for women to join. Not because they are any less tough than men, on the contrary. It's because their toughness does not apply particularly well to this somewhat ritualistic form of game. So, the point is, men can go on playing those sorts of games in Jazz, and block women out. Just as they can in the rest of society. But is it good for Jazz, good for Society? Simon Weil Quote
Jazzmoose Posted September 12, 2003 Report Posted September 12, 2003 Simon, I completely agree with your analysis. However, I'm not sure that there's anything we can really do about it long term. It seems to me that perhaps that's just the way men (and women) are, and to pretend that it is a problem that can be solved is to just buy into a fallacy of free will that simply doesn't exist. (Not really an argument; I'm just pondering a bit here...) Quote
Chuck Nessa Posted September 12, 2003 Report Posted September 12, 2003 More men do this, more women do that. More women feel this way, more men feel that way. Why do we search for "correctives" to this? Is it inherently wrong? Quote
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