Big John Greer - I'm The Fat Man

[JSngry]

I must confess, Big John Greer was a name with which I was unfamiliar, but that was a flaw in my my knowledge base that has since been corrected. This cat can BLOW, one of the great R&B honkers who walked that line between grit and grace as finely (and skirted it as closely) as it could be walked. Recommended just for his playing alone....

BUT WAIT- THERE'S MORE!

Sidemen include the Lucky Millender Orchestra (with Art Blakey on four cuts), Al Casey, Tony Scott, Tate Houston, Tyree Glenn, Cecil Payne,Earl May, Herie Lovelle, Rudy Powell, Skeeter Best, Idrees Sulieman, Connie Kay, Bill Doggett, Jimmy Crawford, Everett Barksdale, Budd Johnson, Al Sears, Joe Benjamin, Sam Taylor (featured prominently on the later cuts where the emphasis shifts to Greer as singer), Mickey Baker, Panama Francis, and other names you will recognize. They're mostly (but not always - Tony Scott's clarinet pops through in a moment of R&B near-surrealism) in a supporting, part-playing role, but the difference that players like this playing parts can make is not to be taken lightly. Simply put, this shit SWINGS from start to finish. Like a mofo.

Also, all of these sessions were recorded for RCA/RCA subsidiaries and used RCA studios. So they're recorded clearly with that snappy sound that comes from old RCA sides.

Apparently, there was a more comprehensive, 3-CD Bear Family set that covered all of this material, but best as I can tell, it's OOP. So this one will have to do until the real thing comes along. But believe me when I tell you that if you like that pre-R&R R&B, the type of thing that rocks and rolls and swings, and if you like tenor playing that is, to use the local cliche, greasyus maximus, hey, check this bad boy out. You'll not be disappointed.

Edited August 2, 2007 by JSngry

[JSngry]

No love for greasy tenor? Not even w/Art Blakey?

Where's Mr. Goldberg?

[Shawn]

Oh I'm all about greasy tenor!!! Damn, that's quite a roll call of talent on this discs...

I'll be lookin' for that one.

[Noj]

I mostly just sit here and seethe with jealousy when you post something like this, JSngry.

[JSngry]

I mostly just sit here and seethe with jealousy when you post something like this, JSngry.

Hey, can't fight The Seether!

Just 15% of a C-Note at Da'Bastids. Probably better deals to be had.

[brownie]

Big John Greer is one of the tenors featured with Wynonie Harris on a number of Wynonie sessions. There is a 4CD Wynonie Harris Proper box that gathers many of the sessions. Superb box from a quite unique singer!

The tenors taking part in the sessions include Eddie Davis, Teddy Edwards, Illinois Jacques, Jack McVea, Arnett Cobb, Allen Eager, Johnny Griffin, Hal Singer, John Hardee ...

Big John Greer is heard in one of his best solos on 'Mr. Blues Is Coming to Town'.

Strangely his classic solo on 'Bloodshot Eyes' is not in that box (I have it on a Harris compilation LP).

I'll be looking for that Big John Greer reissue CD! Thanks for pointing it out

[JSngry]

Greer's AMG Bio It's kinda sad.

Never attaining the same glistening level of fame that fellow New York sax blasters Sam "The Man" Taylor and King Curtis enjoyed, Big John Greer nevertheless blew strong and sang long on a terrific series of waxings for RCA Victor and its Groove subsidiary from 1949 to 1955.

Greer was a childhood pal of future King Records producer Henry Glover. The pair attended high school together in Hot Springs and progressed to Alabama A&M College. Glover moved up quickly, playing trumpet and arranging for popular bandleader Lucky Millinder by 1948; when Millinder saxist Bull Moose Jackson split the aggregation to promote his blossoming solo career, Glover called his pal Big John Greer to fill Moose's chair. Greer's first record date as a leader was for Bob Shad's fledgling Sittin' in With label, but the great majority of his discography lies in Victor's vaults.

Initially recording as a singer/saxist with Millinder's unit for RCA, Greer stayed put when Millinder defected to King in 1950. That worked out nicely for Greer, who blew scorching tenor sax behind King stars Wynonie Harris (on "Mr. Blues Is Coming to Town" and "Bloodshot Eyes") and Bull Moose Jackson (on the incredibly raunchy "Nosey Joe"). Greer enjoyed his biggest hit as a vocalist in 1952 with the tasty blues ballad "Got You On My Mind" for RCA. The Howard Biggs-Joe Thomas composition attracted covers over the years from a mighty disparate lot, notably the Big Three Trio, Cookie & the Cupcakes, and Jerry Lee Lewis.

Greer's RCA and (from 1954 on) Groove platters were of uncommonly high standards, even for the polished New York scene. But no more hits ensued ("Bottle It Up and Go" and "Come Back Maybellene" certainly deserved a wider audience) for the powerful saxist. Glover brought him over to King in 1955, but a year there didn't slow his slide. Booze was apparently taking its toll on Greer's employment prospects; by 1957, he was back in Hot Springs, through as anything but a local attraction. He died at age 48, forgotten by all but the most dedicated R&B fans.

I wonder who produced/contracted those RCA sides. The sidemen are more than a little "high class" on a consistent basis. This isn't the usual case of the odd jazz player or two showing up on an R&B date. This is definitely an arranger/contractor/producer/somebody calling in top-shelf players to cover what for all intents and purposes are "normal" R&B charts. There's definitely a difference in feel and execution as a result. Subtle, but real. Not necessarily "better", but definitely...different, and not at all in a bad way.

[paul secor]

Greer's AMG Bio It's kinda sad.

Never attaining the same glistening level of fame that fellow New York sax blasters Sam "The Man" Taylor and King Curtis enjoyed, Big John Greer nevertheless blew strong and sang long on a terrific series of waxings for RCA Victor and its Groove subsidiary from 1949 to 1955.

Greer was a childhood pal of future King Records producer Henry Glover. The pair attended high school together in Hot Springs and progressed to Alabama A&M College. Glover moved up quickly, playing trumpet and arranging for popular bandleader Lucky Millinder by 1948; when Millinder saxist Bull Moose Jackson split the aggregation to promote his blossoming solo career, Glover called his pal Big John Greer to fill Moose's chair. Greer's first record date as a leader was for Bob Shad's fledgling Sittin' in With label, but the great majority of his discography lies in Victor's vaults.

Initially recording as a singer/saxist with Millinder's unit for RCA, Greer stayed put when Millinder defected to King in 1950. That worked out nicely for Greer, who blew scorching tenor sax behind King stars Wynonie Harris (on "Mr. Blues Is Coming to Town" and "Bloodshot Eyes") and Bull Moose Jackson (on the incredibly raunchy "Nosey Joe"). Greer enjoyed his biggest hit as a vocalist in 1952 with the tasty blues ballad "Got You On My Mind" for RCA. The Howard Biggs-Joe Thomas composition attracted covers over the years from a mighty disparate lot, notably the Big Three Trio, Cookie & the Cupcakes, and Jerry Lee Lewis.

Greer's RCA and (from 1954 on) Groove platters were of uncommonly high standards, even for the polished New York scene. But no more hits ensued ("Bottle It Up and Go" and "Come Back Maybellene" certainly deserved a wider audience) for the powerful saxist. Glover brought him over to King in 1955, but a year there didn't slow his slide. Booze was apparently taking its toll on Greer's employment prospects; by 1957, he was back in Hot Springs, through as anything but a local attraction. He died at age 48, forgotten by all but the most dedicated R&B fans.

I wonder who produced/contracted those RCA sides. The sidemen are more than a little "high class" on a consistent basis. This isn't the usual case of the odd jazz player or two showing up on an R&B date. This is definitely an arranger/contractor/producer/somebody calling in top-shelf players to cover what for all intents and purposes are "normal" R&B charts. There's definitely a difference in feel and execution as a result. Subtle, but real. Not necessarily "better", but definitely...different, and not at all in a bad way.

I have the Greer Bear Family set (tho I haven't listened to it in a while). The booklet with that lists the producers on his RCA sessions as Stephen H. Sholes (with Charles R. Grean for two sessions) from 1949 thru April 10, 1952; then Joe Thomas - a tenor saxophonist and vocal coach, but not the Joe Thomas who played in Jimmy Lunceford's band, later recorded in an r&b style for King Records, and, years later, made a recording for Uptown Records - Danny Kessler, Ed Kissack, and Bob Rolontz.

It's possible that the presence of some of the sidemen was due to the influence of Lucky Millinder, who is listed as the band leader on several early John Greer RCA sessions. Greer played in Millinder's band. Greer himself, pianist Howard Biggs, who was musical director for The Ravens, and Leroy Kirkland are listed as leaders on later Greer RCA dates.

As Jim noted, many well known jazz musicians - among them Rudy Powell, Mundell Lowe, Al Casey, Tony Scott, Tate Houston, Art Blakey, Seldon Powell, Aaron Bell, "Skeeter Best, Earl May, Idrees Sulieman, Eddie Barefield, Buddy Tate, Taft Jordan, Jimmie Crawford, Budd Johnson, Jerome Richardson, Billy Taylor (pianist), Connie Kay, and Tyree Glenn - played on John Greer's recording dates, though that wasn't all that unusual in the early days of r&b.

Hope this helps a bit.

[JSngry]

As Jim noted, many well known jazz musicians - among them Rudy Powell, Mundell Lowe, Al Casey, Tony Scott, Tate Houston, Art Blakey, Seldon Powell, Aaron Bell, "Skeeter Best, Earl May, Idrees Sulieman, Eddie Barefield, Buddy Tate, Taft Jordan, Jimmie Crawford, Budd Johnson, Jerome Richardson, Billy Taylor (pianist), Connie Kay, and Tyree Glenn - played on John Greer's recording dates, though that wasn't all that unusual in the early days of r&b.

No, not at all. It just seems that the % of jazz musicians on a lot of Greer's dates is a lot higher than normal. But maybe that's just my perception?

[paul secor]

As Jim noted, many well known jazz musicians - among them Rudy Powell, Mundell Lowe, Al Casey, Tony Scott, Tate Houston, Art Blakey, Seldon Powell, Aaron Bell, "Skeeter Best, Earl May, Idrees Sulieman, Eddie Barefield, Buddy Tate, Taft Jordan, Jimmie Crawford, Budd Johnson, Jerome Richardson, Billy Taylor (pianist), Connie Kay, and Tyree Glenn - played on John Greer's recording dates, though that wasn't all that unusual in the early days of r&b.

No, not at all. It just seems that the % of jazz musicians on a lot of Greer's dates is a lot higher than normal. But maybe that's just my perception?

You could be right. That was just my impression, but I've never actually done a thorough discographical search. If there is a higher % of jazz musicians on Greer's dates, it could be due to the Millinder influence. He may have had more jazz musicians in his recording bands - don't know if those bands were the same as his touring bands, but I'd bet they were very similar - than most r&b bands of the day did.

[kh1958]

King Curtis a New York sax blaster? I thought he was from Fort Worth.

[Niko]

no one has mentioned yet that on one of these sessions we have one of trumpeter Don Joseph's few appearances on record (btw the Don Joseph discography also mentions that "According to session log, Tony Scott participated only from 15:45-17:00." )

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

Yeah, I should get this album. My mate has Greer's Sittin' in with single on 78. Decades since I heard it. Swings like fuck. I have only one of his RCA 78s - "Let me hold you"/"Tell me so" - less effective. Are these on that CD?

MG

Edited August 8, 2007 by The Magnificent Goldberg

[Big Beat Steve]

Too bad R&B reissues like this almost always end up with a fair share of duplication. Will have to check out my Greer vinyl etc. to see what's actually going to be new.

[JSngry]

I have only one of his RCA 78s - "Let me hold you"/"Tell me so" - less effective. Are these on that CD?

There are 30 songs on this CD, and those two are not among them.

Now, can somebody tell me about one Dolores Brown> She appears on one cut, as well as in a photo on the back. She would appear to be quite...desireable.

[Niko]

I have only one of his RCA 78s - "Let me hold you"/"Tell me so" - less effective. Are these on that CD?

There are 30 songs on this CD, and those two are not among them.

Now, can somebody tell me about one Dolores Brown> She appears on one cut, as well as in a photo on the back. She would appear to be quite...desireable.

if allmusic is not too simple for you (it's Chadbourne)

Biography by Eugene Chadbourne

A '40s big band jazz and 'rhythm and blues singer, Dolores Brown is quite likely to show up as Delores Brown in discography credits and other references, with apparently no confirmed opinion among researchers over which vowel is correct. There is no dispute over what is the most famous story involving Brown, however. That would have to be her 1942 recording of the chilling "Cold Weather Papa" song, done at a time when the American Federation of Musicians recording ban was in place and musicians were effectively frozen out of recording studios. All except harmonica players, that is, because the AFM at that time did not recognize the harmonica as a musical instrument, be it a diatonic, chromatic, echo-harp or what not. So Brown was backed up on this record by a quartet of harmonica players, each approximating the sound of a rhythm section instrument. This was a quartet of harmonica virtuosos, no less, consisting of Frank C. Andriello of the Polka Dots band with Hy Dolber, Ralph Files and the brilliant Michael Chimes. The resulting record, released with the similarly arranged "20-99 Blues" on the flip side, actually did fairly well despite the oddball instrumentation.

Brown was paid $25 for the session, which is often cited as an example of producer Joe Davis' genius at experimentation, not to mention getting around legalities and paying bargain basement wages. It was not the vocalist's first collaboration with Davis. As a vocalist with the Erskine Hawkins big band, she had cut a version of the Davis song "'S'posin'", an example of a tune actually written by Davis, who also had a habit of affixing his name or a pseudonym such as E.V. Body to folk songs or other non-copyrighted material. Brown made her recording debut with Hawkins in 1939, staying with this band for more than a year. While the Hawkins band is definately admired for its recordings, the praise is rarely lavished on the vocal tracks. Reviews of various reissue compilations of this band generally are of the opinion that the instrumental tracks save the day, balancing out the mediocrity of the vocal numbers. "Harmless if forgettable" is a typical comment about Brown's chirping with this outfit.

In 1943, Brown began singing with the Don Redman Orchestra for an extended engagement at the Zanzibar in New York City. Based on evidence of recordings, she was based out of Brooklyn for much of this decade. Redman utilized her on some recordings for V-Disc at the close of the year, and in 1947 there were several projects involving her for the Sterling label. These include a recording with the honky-tonking Bill Doggett and a version of "Can't Help Lovin' That Man" recorded with the vocal group The Auditones and released under their combined names. In the spring of 1948, Brown performed at the resurrection of Spider Kelly's Philadelphia club, singing in front of the Al Russell Trio. She also recorded with bluesman Big John Greer.

[Big Beat Steve]

I have only one of his RCA 78s - "Let me hold you"/"Tell me so" - less effective. Are these on that CD?

There are 30 songs on this CD, and those two are not among them.

The two tracks that MG mentions are on Big John Greer's reissue LP "R&B in New York" (Official 6026).

This thread made me pull out that LP once more. It's been a long while since I last listened to it; small wonder after having listened more closely now: This LP includes 16 of his RCA tracks from late 1951 to 1955, and though Greer did a few goodies (such as "You Played On My Piano" with the abovementioned Dolores Brown) he obviously was often aiming quite clearly at the pop end of R&B. The A&R men at Victor apparently wanted him to be another Ivory Joe Hunter.

According to the discographies, the percentage of title tracks of his earlier (ca. 1949-51) recordings that sound a bit more gutsy seems to be higher so let's hope this 30-tracks CD emphasises his uptempo material a bit more.

At any rate, there is little reason for those who like their R&B with a beat to bemoan the fact that his "collected works" on Bear Family have gone OOP. Many of his 4-track sessions aparently yielded about one uptempo tune per every 3 pop ballads. Ho hum ...

Edited August 11, 2007 by Big Beat Steve

[JSngry]

According to the discographies, the percentage of title tracks of his earlier (ca. 1949-51) recordings that sound a bit more gutsy seems to be higher so let's hope this 30-tracks CD emphasises his uptempo material a bit more. .

In fact, they dominate the set, the uptempo tunes do. If you hadn't told me otherwise, Id have been left w/the impressionthat Greer specialized in rocking R&B, not ballads.

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

Excellent info Steve - thanks.

MG

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

Got this today! Together with Bull Moose Jackson's "Bad Man Jackson", on Proper. (Greer was Jackson's replacement in the Lucky Millinder band, and they two CDs were both in Spillers when I went in, so how could I leave the Jackson behind?

The Greer, as Jim said, is very, very well recorded, particularly when put up against the Jackson King material.

My only disappointment with the Greer is that it's all RCA Victor/Groove material - so his first recording for Bob Shad's Sittin' in with label of "Rockin' with Big John" isn't included. That is so much more laid back and satisfying than the RCA Victor one - a true classic that's missing. But this is definitely picking nits.

MG

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

On the related subject of the proportion of jazz musicians on R&B recordings from the post-war period, here's a list of sidemen on a Cousin Joe boxed set, covering 1945-1955, that I got last year.

Hot Lips Page, tp

Dick Vance, tp

Leonard Hawkins, tp

Shad Collins, tp

Thomas Jefferson, tp

Lemon Boler, tp (who?)

Dickie Wells, tb

Tyree Glenn, tb

Tony Scott, cl

Mezz Mezzrow, cl

Sidney Bechet, sops

Pete Brown, as

Earl Bostic, as

Joe Harris, as

Ray Abrams, ts

John Hardee, ts

Al Sears, ts

Lee Allen, ts

Clarence Hall, ts

Herb Hardesty, ts

Sam Butera, ts

Harry Carney, bars

Sam Price, p

Leonard Feather, p

Kenny Watts, p

Ernie Washington, p

Billy Kyle, p

George Parker, p

Hank Jones, p

Paul Gayten, p

Steve Henderson, p

Salvador Doucette, p

Danny Barker, g

Billy Butler, g

Jimmy Shirley, g

Al "Buck" Casey, g

Ernest McLean, g

Edgar Blanchard, g

Lloyd Trotman, b

Leonard Gaskin, b

Pops Foster, b

Frank Fields, b

Warren Stanley, b

Al Matthews, b

Jimmy Jones, b

Percy Joell, b

Big Sid Catlett, d

J C Heard, d

Arthur Herbert, d

Eddie Nicholson, d

Robert Green, d

Woodie Nichols, d

Kenny Clarke, d

Dorothea Smith, d

Alonzo Stewart, d

Earl Palmer, d

Of course, Cousin Joe was from New Orleans, and had played jazz since the early thirties, which explains the presence of so many New Orleans musicians on his records. (There are also a few unknowns spattering his discography.) But I don't think it was all that uncommon for jazz musicians to play on R&B records from the period. Many of the top R&B artists had a jazz background. Louis Jordan, Jimmy Witherspoon and Wynonie Harris are good, but not exceptional examples. Others, from the West Coast, who'd played in Texas and other western Territory bands included Roy Milton, Charles Brown, Ivory Joe Hunter, Amos Milburn, Johnny Otis and Joe Liggins.

MG

Oh yes, one might also mention that, back in Chicago, Red Holloway and Harold Ashby were in the Otis Rush band, during his Cobra period. Eddie Chamblee and Stanley Turrentine were with Lowell Fulson, and so on.

Edited October 22, 2007 by The Magnificent Goldberg

[Big Beat Steve]

Got the Greer CD that's discussed here a couple of weeks ago too (as the earlier debate in this thread had spurreed me into ordering it via AMazon too when a few others Must-Haves had accumulated).

Indeed a nice selection with a far better share of uptempo material than the Official LP I mentioned earlier, and some very catchy instrumentals that are sure to set your feet tapping - BUT:

If you've listened to a huge bit of sax-led late 40s/early 50s R&B, Big John Greer's RCA/Groove material just comes across as somewhat polished, slick and all too perfectly produced (a bit like some of the Al Sears stuff done for RCA and Sam The Man Taylor's for Mercury) - as opposed to the raw, gutsy, untameed energy of what the Indie labels did at about the same time. MG is talking about better recording quality - true, admittedly, but that cannot be the only difference that makes the RCA stuff come across as somewhat calculated. At times almost a bit like some R&B for listeners who were content remaining on the outside of those greeeezy jook joints looking in instead of getting right into the action themselves ...

But admittedly this is nitpicking too. The music on its own terms is fine, warts'n missing rough edges 'n all

Edited October 23, 2007 by Big Beat Steve

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

Got the Greer CD that's discussed here a couple of weeks ago too (as the earlier debate in this thread had spurreed me into ordering it via AMazon too when a few others Must-Haves had accumulated).

Indeed a nice selection with a far better share of uptempo material than the Official LP I mentioned earlier, and some very catchy instrumentals that are sure to set your feet tapping - BUT:

If you've listened to a huge bit of sax-led late 40s/early 50s R&B, Big John Greer's RCA/Groove material just comes across as somewhat polished, slick and all too perfectly produced (a bit like some of the AL Sears stuff done for Mercury a bit later) - as opposed to the raw, gutsy, untameed energy of what the Indie labels did at about the same time. MG is talking about better recording quality - true, admittedly, but that cannot be the only difference that makes the RCA stuff come across as somewhat calculated. At times almost a bit like some R&B for listeners who were content remaining on the outside of those greeeezy jook joints looking in instead of getting right into the action themselves ...

But admittedly this is nitpicking too. The music on its own terms is fine, warts'n missing rough edges 'n all

I think you've got a point, Steve, though I've only listened to the CD once. But comparing the RCA Victor version of "Rockin' with Big John" with my memories of the version on Sittin' in with, as George Clinton said, "No compute". My imediate reaction was disappointment that the first version hadn't been included, even though it's nit-picking. But it's nonetheless true that BJG was a hell of a player and this CD does him justice.

I do have a tendencey to write off the major companies when it comes to making really greasy music but I shouldn't forget that it was RCA Victor who recorded Piano Red, and then it was OkeH who recorded Dr Feelgood & the Interns".

MG

[JSngry]

Nitpicking indeed...

What, is R&B that's played with professional polish by definition "not real" enough?

What kind of vicarious thrills are we looking for anyway?

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

Nitpicking indeed...

What, is R&B that's played with professional polish by definition "not real" enough?

If you'd heard Greer's Sittin' in with version of "Rockin' with Big John", you'd know that polish isn't the issue. Being completely at ease, relaxed, comfortable, yet preaching the blues at the same time, is.

What kind of vicarious thrills are we looking for anyway?

Er... listening to music IS vicarious; particularly listening to foreign music.

MG