Miles & Mobley

[montg]

What was it about Mobley that didn't appeal to Miles? I was listening to the Carnegie Hall CD last night and Mobley sounded mighty fine to me in that context. The rhythm section (Kelly/Chambers/Cobb) was certainly compatible with Mobley.

[Parkertown]

Mobley didn't "push it."

[Parkertown]

I love that Carnegie Hall set...but mostly for Miles' white-hot playing.

[jazzbo]

I think in fact that Mobley and Miles were more similar than dissimilar in playing style, and Miles found that a dissimilar style next to him on the bandstand or in the studio worked better.

Or it could be something extramusical. Often I think Miles dissed musicianship for reasons outside the musician's musicianship. I mean didn't he say something like "Duke Jordan couldn't play shit." I don't think that was ever true, no matter whether talking about his tenure with Bird or beyond.

[Rooster_Ties]

I love that Carnegie Hall set...but mostly for Miles' white-hot playing.

Here's a thought -- perhaps some of Miles best, most agressive pre-1965 playing occured when he had sax-players that weren't "really pushing it"-type players. (Edit to say that Jazzbo snuck in while I was writing this long-winded post of mine, saying much the same thing).

For various reasons, I've never been as big a fan of the Miles recordings with Hank (so I haven't heard those dates in probably 10 years) -- but I do know that Miles was totally taking no prisoners on that live Stockholm date with Sonny Stitt from 1960 (the one paired with the Miles & Trane live material, also from Stockholm, on Dragon).

Miles was one who always seemed to want to balance fire and heat (which he usually found in his sax players), with 'cool' and warmth (more often in his own playing). But when his sax players weren't "pushing it" as hard, Miles stepped up more aggressively more of the time to compensate -- i.e., with Hank, Stitt, and Coleman (anybody else I'm forgetting in that '60 to '64 range?).

Sam Rivers is the outlier here, but (if I recall), Miles plays with more lyricism on that Miles in Tokyo date (which I haven't heard in years -- the "Seven Steps" box is the last Miles box I have yet to get), and also one other Miles & Rivers date (also from Tokyo), that’s floating around. One would or could argue that Miles finally got the right balance (or his right balance) with Wayne.

But back to Miles playing with Sonny, Hank, and George -- for my money, that's sometimes some of Miles' best playing from that era (at least to my tastes), because of his trying to push it more, to compensate for his sax players at that time.

Edited July 27, 2007 by Rooster_Ties

[Guy Berger]

I think in fact that Mobley and Miles were more similar than dissimilar in playing style, and Miles found that a dissimilar style next to him on the bandstand or in the studio worked better.

I think this is pretty much it, or at least the most reasonable inference. (Though I think you could make an interesting argument that Wayne Shorter's playing "Miles-ified" during his years with the group.)

FWIW, I disagree with Rooster's placing of George Coleman's playing with Mobley. On those recordings George has a very robust sound.

Guy

[Spontooneous]

If the Blackhawk recordings are any indication, Mobley fell into his just-playing-licks bag with Miles a lot.

Ever notice that on the Blackhawk sides, the rhythm section sparkles in the trumpet and piano solos but often sounds bored during the tenor spots?

[Big Al]

If the Blackhawk recordings are any indication, Mobley fell into his just-playing-licks bag with Miles a lot.

Ever notice that on the Blackhawk sides, the rhythm section sparkles in the trumpet and piano solos but often sounds bored during the tenor spots?

On the contrary; I always thought they found their groove behind Mobley and felt really in-the-pocket. But then, what's "in-the-pocket" to one man may be boring to the other. YMMV.

[Dan Gould]

If the Blackhawk recordings are any indication, Mobley fell into his just-playing-licks bag with Miles a lot.

Ever notice that on the Blackhawk sides, the rhythm section sparkles in the trumpet and piano solos but often sounds bored during the tenor spots?

On the contrary; I always thought they found their groove behind Mobley and felt really in-the-pocket. But then, what's "in-the-pocket" to one man may be boring to the other. YMMV.

I agree. Wynton Kelly and PC played and recorded with Hank a great deal. Only Jimmy Cobb was "new" to Hank, the others obviously dug his sound/feel/conception.

[chewy-chew-chew-bean-benitez]

did miles really say "mobley cant play shit"? was that in his autobio?

[Soulstation1]

that's just common knowledge

[Larry Kart]

On the one hand, some of Mobley's greatest records were made when he was with Miles but under his own name on Blue Note or as a sideman for Blue Note. On the other hand, Mobley's solo work as a sideman with Miles as by and large IMO far below the level of his contemporary work on Blue Note -- relatively unfocused/routine, even out right distracted at times. What accounts for the difference, if difference there be? The presence/attitude of Miles, who could be one hell of a jerk when he wanted to be (pissed perhaps that he no longer had the cutting-edge Coltrane in his band but a man whom he stupidly might have thought of as a stylistic retread/placeholder), and the effect of that draft on Mobley, who seems like a man who needed a fair amount of empathy to be at this best. The absence of Alfred Lion? (which may be another way of saying the same thing). Mobley's drug problems and Miles's reaction to them? The presence of Jimmy Cobb? (a nice drummer for sure but not one well-suited to bringing out the best in Mobley). Playing the same tunes night after night? In sum, the Blue Notes tell me that whatever the hell was going on here, there was nothing the hell wrong with Hank Mobley then that he couldn't triumphantly control/overcome when he wasn't in the vicinity of Miles Davis.

Edited July 29, 2007 by Larry Kart

[marcello]

Most artists are at their best on their own projects playing their chosen repertoire.

No mystery there.

In the entire history of the Miles Davis bands, Hank was there not very long at all.

Mobley had something like five recordings as a leader in 1956 alone and about the same number or more in 1957, so his identity was firmly rooted well before he started playing with Miles in 1961.

[Larry Kart]

Most artists are at their best on their own projects playing their chosen repertoire.

No mystery there.

In the entire history of the Miles Davis bands, Hank was there not very long at all.

Mobley had something like five recordings as a leader in 1956 alone and about the same number or more in 1957, so his identity was firmly rooted well before he started playing with Miles in 1961.

Yes, Mobley wasn't with Miles that long. My point is that during, just before, and within the same year of his time with Miles, Mobley made some of his most striking recordings, while his solo work with Miles usually was far below that standard, for whatever reasons. Some documentation:

Kenny Dorham Quintet

Kenny Dorham (tp) Hank Mobley (ts) Kenny Drew (p) Paul Chambers (b) Philly Joe Jones (d)

Rudy Van Gelder Studio, Englewood Cliffs, NJ, January 15, 1961

tk.2 "Philly" Twist Blue Note BLP 4063

tk.11 Whistle Stop -

tk.19 Windmill -

tk.20 Sunset -

tk.25 Sunrise In Mexico -

tk.31 Dorham's Epitaph -

tk.34 Buffalo -

* Kenny Dorham - Whistle Stop (Blue Note BLP 4063, BST 84063)

Miles Davis Quintet

Miles Davis (tp) Hank Mobley (ts) Wynton Kelly (p) Paul Chambers (b) Jimmy Cobb (d)

Columbia 30th Street Studios, NYC, March 7, 1961

CO66235-6 Drang-Dog Columbia CL 1656

CO66236-4 No Blues -

* Miles Davis - Someday My Prince Will Come (Columbia CL 1656, CS 8456)

Miles Davis Quintet With John Coltrane

Miles Davis (tp) Hank Mobley (ts) John Coltrane (ts -2) Wynton Kelly (p) Paul Chambers (b) Jimmy Cobb (d)

Columbia 30th Street Studios, NYC, March 20, 1961

1. CO66500-14 Someday My Prince Will Come Columbia C5X 45000

2. CO66500-15 - Columbia CL 1656

3. CO66501 Old Folks -

* Miles Davis - The Columbia Years 1955-1985 (Columbia C5X 45000, C4K 45000)

* Miles Davis - Someday My Prince Will Come (Columbia CL 1656, CS 8456)

Miles Davis Quintet With John Coltrane

Miles Davis (tp) Hank Mobley (ts) Wynton Kelly (p) Paul Chambers (b) Jimmy Cobb (d -1) Philly Joe Jones (d -2)

Columbia 30th Street Studios, NYC, March 21, 1961

1. CO66506 I Thought About You Columbia CL 1656

2. CO66507 Blues, No. 2 Columbia KC2 36278; CBS/Sony (J) 36AP 1409/10

* Miles Davis - Someday My Prince Will Come (Columbia CL 1656, CS 8456)

* Miles Davis - Circle In The Round (Columbia KC2 36278)

* Miles Davis - Circle In The Round (CBS/Sony (J) 36AP 1409/10)

Hank Mobley Quintet

Hank Mobley (ts) Wynton Kelly (p) Grant Green (g -1/5) Paul Chambers (b) Philly Joe Jones (d)

Rudy Van Gelder Studio, Englewood Cliffs, NJ, March 26, 1961

1. tk.3 Smokin' Blue Note BLP 4080

2. tk.4 Uh Huh -

3. tk.8 The Best Things In Life Are Free -

4. tk.11 Workout -

5. tk.15 Greasin' Easy -

6. tk.21 Three Coins In A Fountain Blue Note BST 84431, (J) TOCJ 5941/44

* Hank Mobley - Workout (Blue Note BLP 4080, BST 84080, CDP 7 84080-2)

* Hank Mobley - Another Workout (Blue Note BST 84431)

Miles Davis Quintet

Miles Davis (tp) Hank Mobley (ts) Wynton Kelly (p) Paul Chambers (b) Jimmy Cobb (d)

"The Blackhawk", San Francisco, CA, 1st set, April 21, 1961

Autumn Leaves (inc.) rejected

CO67467 Oleo Columbia CL 1670

CO67461 No Blues Columbia CL 1669

CO67462 Bye Bye (theme) -

* Miles Davis In Person, Vol. 2 - Saturday Night At The Blackhawk (Columbia CL 1670, CS 8470, CJ 44425, CK 44425)

* Miles Davis In Person, Vol. 1 - Friday Night At The Blackhawk (Columbia CL 1669, CS 8469, CJ 44257, CK 44257)

Miles Davis Quintet

same personnel

"The Blackhawk", San Francisco, CA, 2nd set, April 21, 1961

CO67460 All Of You Columbia CL 1669

Neo (Teo) Mosaic MQ6-220

I Thought About You -

CO67459 Bye Bye Blackbird Columbia CL 1669

CO67458 Walkin' -

CO67463 Love, I've Found You -

* Miles Davis In Person, Vol. 1 - Friday Night At The Blackhawk (Columbia CL 1669, CS 8469, CJ 44257, CK 44257)

* Miles Davis - The Complete Blackhawk Sessions (Mosaic MQ6-220)

Miles Davis Quintet

same personnel

"The Blackhawk", San Francisco, CA, 3rd set, April 21, 1961

If I Were A Bell Mosaic MQ6-220

CO67465 Fran-Dance Columbia CL 1670

CO69451 On Green Dolphin Street Columbia CL 1765

Bye Bye (theme) Mosaic MQ6-220

Love, I've Found You Columbia rejected

* Miles Davis - The Complete Blackhawk Sessions (Mosaic MQ6-220)

* Miles Davis In Person, Vol. 2 - Saturday Night At The Blackhawk (Columbia CL 1670, CS 8470, CJ 44425, CK 44425)

* Various Artists - Who's Who In Jazz (Columbia CL 1765, CS 8565)

Miles Davis Quintet

same personnel

"The Blackhawk", San Francisco, CA, 1st set, April 22, 1961

CO67468 If I Were A Bell Columbia CL 1670

CO67466 So What -

No Blues -

* Miles Davis In Person, Vol. 2 - Saturday Night At The Blackhawk (Columbia CL 1670, CS 8470, CJ 44425, CK 44425)

Miles Davis Quintet

same personnel

"The Blackhawk", San Francisco, CA, 2nd set, April 22, 1961

On Green Dolphin Street Mosaic MQ6-220

Walkin' -

Miles Davis Quintet

same personnel

"The Blackhawk", San Francisco, CA, 3rd set, April 22, 1961

Autumn Leaves Mosaic MQ6-220

CO67469 Teo (Neo) Columbia CL 1670

Two Bass Hit Mosaic MQ6-220

Bye Bye (theme) -

Love, I've Found You -

* Miles Davis - The Complete Blackhawk Sessions (Mosaic MQ6-220)

* Miles Davis In Person, Vol. 2 - Saturday Night At The Blackhawk (Columbia CL 1670, CS 8470, CJ 44425, CK 44425)

Miles Davis Quintet

same personnel

"The Blackhawk", San Francisco, CA, 4th set, April 22, 1961

I Thought About You Mosaic MQ6-220

Someday My Prince Will Come -

Softly As In A Morning Sunrise -

Bye Bye (theme) (inc.) Columbia rejected

* Miles Davis - The Complete Blackhawk Sessions (Mosaic MQ6-220)

Miles Davis Quintet

same personnel

"The Blackhawk", San Francisco, CA, April 22 or 21, 1961

Autumn Leaves Magnetic (Luxe) MRCD 125

Autumn Leaves (inc.) unissued

Two Bass Hit / Bye Bye (theme) Magnetic (Luxe) MRCD 125

I Thought About You -

Someday My Prince Will Come -

Bye Bye (theme) -

* Miles Davis - Transition (Magnetic (Luxe) MRCD 125)

Gil Evans Orchestra

Miles Davis (tp) Johnny Coles, Bernie Glow, Louis Mucci, Ernie Royal (tp -1) Dick Hixson, Jimmy Knepper, Frank Rehak (tb -1) Paul Ingraham, Robert Swisshelm, Julius Watkins (frh -1) Bill Barber (tu -1) Hank Mobley (ts) Danny Bank, Eddie Caine, Romeo Penque, Jerome Richardson, Bob Tricarico (woodwinds -1) Janet Putman (harp -1) Wynton Kelly (p) Paul Chambers (b) Jimmy Cobb (d) Bobby Rosengarden (per -1) Gil Evans (arr, cond -1)

"Carnegie Hall", NYC, May 19, 1961

1. CO69842 So What Columbia CL 1812

2. CO69844 No Blues -

3. CO69845 Oleo -

4. Teo Columbia CL 40609

5. Walkin' -

6. I Thought About You -

* Miles Davis At Carnegie Hall (Columbia CL 1812)

* Miles Davis - Live Miles: More Music From The Legendary Carnegie Hall Concert (Columbia CL 40609)

Hank Mobley Quartet

Hank Mobley (ts) Wynton Kelly (p) Paul Chambers (b) Philly Joe Jones (d)

Rudy Van Gelder Studio, Englewood Cliffs, NJ, December 5, 1961

tk.2 Gettin' And Jettin' Blue Note BST 84431

tk.8 Out Of Joe's Bag -

tk.9 Hank's Other Soul -

tk.15 I Should Care -

tk.16 Hello, Young Lovers -

* Hank Mobley - Another Workout (Blue Note BST 84431)

As for Mobley's "identity [being] firmly rooted well before he started playing with Miles in 1961" and "most artists [being] at their best on their own projects playing their chosen repertoire" -- of course to the first (though the Mobley of "Workout" and "Another Workout" is arguably a different and more mature player. As for the second, the younger Mobley was in great form on most everything he recorded with The Jazz Messengers and then with the Horace Silver Quintet.

[montg]

The presence of Jimmy Cobb? (a nice drummer for sure but not one well-suited to bringing out the best in Mobley).

Funny you should mention Cobb, I was listening to 'Teo' from the Carnegie Hall album and it's interesting to hear how Cobb plays very differently behind Miles and then Mobley. For Miles it's all cymbals and light rim shots--a pretty light approach altogether which gives Miles a lot of space. When Mobley comes in around the 3:30 mark Cobb switches from the rim to the snare and sounds a lot more aggressive (around 3:42, for instance he seems to almost pound the snare at one point). It felt to me, as I was listening, that Cobb was kind of overwhelming behind Mobley during the performance.

[sal]

Mobley didn't "push it."

This was my first thought.

[Peter Friedman]

I think that Larry Kart's comments have hit the bulls-eye on this topic.

Though I enjoy Mobley's playing with Miles, it is certainly not his best work.

On the other hand, in my opinion George Coleman sounded terrific with Miles. I have always thought that the Miles Davis Quintet with George Coleman was not given it's proper due. That particular group has long had a strong appeal to me.

[Kyo]

On the other hand, in my opinion George Coleman sounded terrific with Miles. I have always thought that the Miles Davis Quintet with George Coleman was not given it's proper due. That particular group has long had a strong appeal to me.

George Coleman is generally one of the most underrated players out there.

I love his more recent solo albums, he makes a great team with Harold Mabern!

[mikeweil]

There was a blindfold test in down beat or Jazz Times recently where one younger player admitted George Coleman's influence and pointed out that Coleman himself always played with a certain "sweet sound" no matter how hard edged and boppish or r&b-ish his phrases were, and that this specific detail was missing with all of his imitators. Very fitting - I listened, and he's right.

[Jazz Kat]

There are so many better Mobley records, when he WASNT playing with Miles, to listen to.

[Jazz Kat]

There are so many better Mobley records, when he WASNT playing with Miles, to listen to.

[sheldonm]

There are so many better Mobley records, when he WASNT playing with Miles, to listen to.

...we heard you the first time!

[AllenLowe]

just to add, as to the comment that "most artists [being] at their best on their own projects playing their chosen repertoire" - I honestly think that in jazz this is untrue as often or more often than it is true - thinking, most immediately, of the many sidemen of Mingus and Ellington who made mediocre or undistinguished recordings on their own - also, in terms of the amount of bad composition that emanates these days from the jazz world - makes me think that just about everybody I hear would be better off as a sideman -

[BruceH]

On the one hand, some of Mobley's greatest records were made when he was with Miles but under his own name on Blue Note or as a sideman for Blue Note. On the other hand, Mobley's solo work as a sideman with Miles as by and large IMO far below the level of his contemporary work on Blue Note -- relatively unfocused/routine, even out right distracted at times. What accounts for the difference, if difference there be? The presence/attitude of Miles, who could be one hell of a jerk when he wanted to be (pissed perhaps that he no longer had the cutting-edge Coltrane in his band but a man whom he stupidly might have thought of as a stylistic retread/placeholder), and the effect of that draft on Mobley, who seems like a man who needed a fair amount of empathy to be at this best. The absence of Alfred Lion? (which may be another way of saying the same thing). Mobley's drug problems and Miles's reaction to them? The presence of Jimmy Cobb? (a nice drummer for sure but not one well-suited to bringing out the best in Mobley). Playing the same tunes night after night? In sum, the Blue Notes tell me that whatever the hell was going on here, there was nothing the hell wrong with Hank Mobley then that he couldn't triumphantly control/overcome when he wasn't in the vicinity of Miles Davis.

I think Larry has hit it right on the head here.

[John Tapscott]

I wouldn't choose his sides with Miles as the best way to show-off Hank's playing, but I've enjoyed his work with that band on the Blackhawk and Carnegie Hall albums. Just imagine yourself in Hank's shoes. It would be hard to do your best, when your employer didn't appreciate you for who you are but wishing you were someone else. In Hank's case that would be Rollins or 'Trane, and wasn't Miles quite vocal about the fact that he wished he had either of those men rather than Hank? Not the most relaxed setting for doing your best work.