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Brad Experienced

Brad

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34 minutes ago, Alexander Hawkins said:

Yes...the Hazard rumours have maybe quietened down just a *little* bit over here in the last couple of days...I guess with both him and Courtois much will depend on how they react to Sarri's appointment as manager. FWIW however, there was talk this morning in the press of Chelsea being linked with Donnarumma should Courtois move on...

I find that the transfer rumors tend to be so wild that they have little basis in reality. For example, there was the rumor that Mbappé was moving to Madrid. 

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Alexander Hawkins Explorer

Alexander Hawkins

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22 hours ago, Brad said:

I find that the transfer rumors tend to be so wild that they have little basis in reality. For example, there was the rumor that Mbappé was moving to Madrid. 

Indeed...and often they seem just to be players' agents talking up their worth so they can negotiate bigger salaries! FWIW Mbappé to Madrid was getting a lot of possible play over here too...though this makes more sense to me: in their true 'Galacticos' fashion (yawn), I suppose only Hazard, Mbappé or Neymar would do at present in world football to replace Ronaldo.

Don't know if you ever look at this page? https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/gossip - it can be a useful one stop shop to see the morning's rumour mill..!

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Big Beat Steve Proficient

Big Beat Steve

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5 hours ago, Brad said:

Interesting article about the Mesut Özil affair.

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2018/jul/23/mesut-ozil-international-retirement-germany?utm_source=esp&utm_medium=Email&utm_campaign=The+Recap&utm_term=282198&subid=24953887&CMP=sport_the_recap

Watch out, Brad, if you bring up THIS topic - this might turn out highly political ... MODS alert ... You are quoting an article from an English source that gives a somewhat one-sided slant to this affair as they fell prey to Özil's statement being worded in English (strange for someone who wants to speak out to Germans, the German national team being above all a German affair  - unless of course you consider this to be a thing that addresses his WORLDWIDE followers on the social media in the first place)

What German football authorities said after the World Cup about Özils's failure ot live up to expectations was extremely silly and uncalled for. He most definitely was not the only one who messed things up and was not the only one to blame. Such a slant in what they said was bloody stupid. And the way the German football assocation had handled this affair before the WC (hoping it would abate by itself) was just as incompetent. They simply had no balls in all this.

However, Özil and Gündogan did an utterly stupid thing in posing with Erdogan who, apart from the havoc he wreaks in Turkish society and democracy, had gone out of his way for months and months to insult Germany and Germans as Nazis (mainly because German politicians did not wish the Turkish election campaign to be conducted in Germany with public appearances by Turkish politicians here - like the Netherlands and Austria, for example, did not wish to be done too, if you remember), in openly calling on Turkish immigrants in Germany and other Western European countries to above all stay Turkish and certainly not meddle too deeply (or worse still, assimilate) in the country they live in, in insulting and threatening German politicians of Turkish descent who had openly criticised his anti-democratic and authoritarian actions, claiming they had "bad blood" and wanting their "blood" tested to see if they actually had any "Turkish blood" left in them, and so on and so on. Do you ACTUALLY think such figures endear themselves to the hearts of many here? Do you actually think those who apparently are not above posing with such a figure at a time when this Erdogan is in the middle of an ELECTION campaign will not be blamed for it - for good reasons? Would anybody be naive enough to believe for a second this was  a strictly private meeting out of sheer politeness and not a highly political meeting where the photos taken and publicized were used to raise more support for Erdogan? Remember he had significantly higher votes for himself among the Turkish community in Germany than he had in Turkey itself. What would the public reaction have been in the UK if a UK footballer of renown had posed publicly with today's offsprings of Enoch Powell, for example?
The very, very best you can say in their favor is that Özil and Gündogan were EXCEEDINGLY ill-advised by their advisers/agents (themselves of Turkish descent too, BTW) in posing for these photographs.

This unnecessary action created a lot of unrest and uproar in the preparatory phase before the WC and certainly cannot have helped in the preparations. Gündogan at least saw fit to issue a statement soon afterwards that he definitely was proud to play in the German team, etc. etc. Özil remained mute throughout. And when he did say something in most recent times (before resigning) his key statement was that he would do it again anytime.

Ain't that strange all in all? Besides, the invitation to meet up with Erdogan had been extended to another international Turkish-German player, Emre Can, who refused to participate, however. And he does not seem to have suffered from it. So there WOULD have been a way out if you have enough of an intellect to sense the implications of this situation.

Sorry to say, but if you are enough of a celeb in a position like this then you are in the public eye and have a responsiblity to assume in your role. As to those who might now ask if a celeb is not entitled to his personal view - well, he is, but if his personal views take forms like this then he is bound to meet with stiff opposition from many sides. And mind you, beyond the usual irresponsible and incurable dimwits in social media who engage in racist commentaries (and who BTW exist in the same way the other way round when it comes to insults and serious threats by diehard nationalist Turks within the Turkish community in Western Europe and/or, more specifically, Germany against those Turks or Germans of Turkish descent who openly speak out against the political situation in Turkey and/or the behavior of those openly unwilling to integrate themselves in any way in their host societies and countries - being called a traitor is the mildest insult there) Özil was NOT put down as not being a German after all but rather was criticized for the political statement he made in this way and at this time. You cannot expect a German footballer of strictly German descent to meet with much sympathy if he openly sympathizes and poses for photographs with a right-wing extremist German politician at election time (and very rightly so!) so why should Özil be cut any slack in this way if he decides to make a statement like this? If for no other reason than as a German he ought to have felt just as insulted by the Nazi insults voiced by Erdogan - unless of course he said to himself "Hey I am of Turkish background so he can't mean me" which of course raises the inevitable question of to what extent you can have your cake and eat it.

In short, Brad, let the affair rest where it is. There are many more layers and aspects to this than the Guardian managed (or saw fit) to grasp.

Edited by Big Beat Steve
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mikeweil Mentor

mikeweil

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The main point is, I think, that many, if not most, do not really understand the life situation of immigrants, or all the more so, second generation immigrants, like Özil and Gündoğan, live in. There is an important quote in the British article linked:

 “Not meeting the president would have been disrespecting the roots of my ancestors, who I know would be proud of where I am today,” he said. “For me, it didn’t matter who was president, it mattered that it was the president.”

Those who criticize him for that do know little about Turkish rules of courtesy, and their struggle for identity between cultures. I have played in a band of Turkish and Kurdish immigrants for eight years, we did concerts all over Europe, and I remember the dozens of political discussions between the musiscians and their friends and fans. We did our first tour through Turkey when Erdoğan first ran for election - nobody was sure about the direction he would take. It is all too complicated to write about here. I respect his position, although I have no sympathies for Erdoğan, and think it cannot be compared to that of Emre Can, who is not as much in the spotlight. I witnessed many variants of seeking identity between these very different worlds, and often children of Turkish immigrants born in Germany turn to the home country of their parents in a way their parents never would. I can see the latent racism, there are signs of it around every day, and think, Özil is right when he says:

“In the eyes of Grindel and his supporters, I am German when we win, but I am an immigrant when we lose,” Özil said in a new statement on Sunday. “Despite paying taxes in Germany, donating facilities to German schools and winning the World Cup with Germany in 2014, I am still not accepted into society.”

Take a look at people like Hoeneß, who, IMHO, should not have returned to his post, and cannot keep his mouth shut. There are at least one third of Germans thinking like that, I'm afraid, and they all play better football than the players on the field, verbally, that is. It is embarassing. The media play their part and want statements fast, where taking your time to think would be better. There are many contradictions in the attitude towards immigrants all over the world, with most politicians opting for easy solutions for a highly complicated matter. It is all very embarassing, as everybody has at least some historical responsibilty for all the events that led to the current situation. 

One of the big contradictions is having national teams in a world where nationalism turns to its negative sides, the teams of many countries would not be what they are without immigrants and their descendants. On the level of league teams, nobody talks about it, except for right wing German dumbheads making disrespectful remarks about Jerome Boateng. On the level of national teams, it suddenly becomes a problem. How can you separate sports and politics? Not when you stick to the idea of national teams, I think.

The difficult reationship between Özil and his father makes things even more complicated - the latter's early statement didn't really leave a choice for his son.

 

Edited by mikeweil
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Big Beat Steve Proficient

Big Beat Steve

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I agree, Brad, and I usnderstand your motivations. And I for one did not feel offended, i just wanted to add a bit to the overall picture in order make it less one-sided. It IS complex.

But ....

2 hours ago, mikeweil said:

The main point is, I think, that many, if not most, do not really understand the life situation of immigrants, or all the more so, second generation immigrants, like Özil and Gündoğan, live in. There is an important quote in the British article linked:

 “Not meeting the president would have been disrespecting the roots of my ancestors, who I know would be proud of where I am today,” he said. “For me, it didn’t matter who was president, it mattered that it was the president.”

Those who criticize him for that do know little about Turkish rules of courtesy, and their struggle for identity between cultures.

 

.. sorry to disagree, Mike, but that's a cheap way of chickening out in one crucial aspect if he tried to limit it to this so-called "traditions" and "courtesy". Old-time courtesy is all very well within one's own four walls but we do live in today's world and a person of such prominence ought to be aware of the implications, particularly if such a meeting is obviously being instrumentalized for political ambitions like it was here. And this means that he was going well beyond the common ground of passably democratic and decent behavior that a role model is called upon to live up to in a situation like this.  No sensible reason to accept double standards. After all, there are enough migrants (including many of Turkish origin) who do not agree with what he did and how he tried to wriggle out of it by trying to "explain" it either. BECAUSE they are aware of the situation of migrants and even more so of what goes on down in their country of origin.
You can't have it both ways - enjoy the benefits of a democratic society on the one hand and then, on the other, pretend you have to retreat into so-called traditionalism-minded "courtesy" whenever it suits you and your interests best and hope to get away with it because allegedly your "roots" "dictate" you such behavior. You (meaning people like Özil) certainly cannot separate the office (president) from the person. Least of all in these circumstances and at such a moment. Unless - of course - you are fine with what the person in that office does. But then stand for it and live with the reactions. Sharply criticizing the footballer for such action is not racism per se.
From a certain point you (i.e. anybody in such a situation of reconciling conflicting aspects of two cultures) just have to make up your mind and decide where you actually want to be and what kind of society you want to embrace. Particularly if you are considered a role model. That may be a downside of being that prominent and taking in everything that comes with it but that's the way it is. Virtually everywhere.

Edited by Big Beat Steve
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Brad Experienced

Brad

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The UEFA Nations League kicked off this week.  Four leagues with the best teams in A League. Here’s how the competition works,  https://www.google.com/amp/s/news.sky.com/story/amp/uefa-nations-league-how-the-new-tournament-works-11493031, which, frankly, isn’t all that clear to me. 

At any rate, Spain, under new coach Luis Enrique, got off to a good start and beat England 2-1. 

Edited by Brad
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