mikeweil Posted July 28, 2018 Report Posted July 28, 2018 (edited) The main point is, I think, that many, if not most, do not really understand the life situation of immigrants, or all the more so, second generation immigrants, like Özil and Gündoğan, live in. There is an important quote in the British article linked: “Not meeting the president would have been disrespecting the roots of my ancestors, who I know would be proud of where I am today,” he said. “For me, it didn’t matter who was president, it mattered that it was the president.” Those who criticize him for that do know little about Turkish rules of courtesy, and their struggle for identity between cultures. I have played in a band of Turkish and Kurdish immigrants for eight years, we did concerts all over Europe, and I remember the dozens of political discussions between the musiscians and their friends and fans. We did our first tour through Turkey when Erdoğan first ran for election - nobody was sure about the direction he would take. It is all too complicated to write about here. I respect his position, although I have no sympathies for Erdoğan, and think it cannot be compared to that of Emre Can, who is not as much in the spotlight. I witnessed many variants of seeking identity between these very different worlds, and often children of Turkish immigrants born in Germany turn to the home country of their parents in a way their parents never would. I can see the latent racism, there are signs of it around every day, and think, Özil is right when he says: “In the eyes of Grindel and his supporters, I am German when we win, but I am an immigrant when we lose,” Özil said in a new statement on Sunday. “Despite paying taxes in Germany, donating facilities to German schools and winning the World Cup with Germany in 2014, I am still not accepted into society.” Take a look at people like Hoeneß, who, IMHO, should not have returned to his post, and cannot keep his mouth shut. There are at least one third of Germans thinking like that, I'm afraid, and they all play better football than the players on the field, verbally, that is. It is embarassing. The media play their part and want statements fast, where taking your time to think would be better. There are many contradictions in the attitude towards immigrants all over the world, with most politicians opting for easy solutions for a highly complicated matter. It is all very embarassing, as everybody has at least some historical responsibilty for all the events that led to the current situation. One of the big contradictions is having national teams in a world where nationalism turns to its negative sides, the teams of many countries would not be what they are without immigrants and their descendants. On the level of league teams, nobody talks about it, except for right wing German dumbheads making disrespectful remarks about Jerome Boateng. On the level of national teams, it suddenly becomes a problem. How can you separate sports and politics? Not when you stick to the idea of national teams, I think. The difficult reationship between Özil and his father makes things even more complicated - the latter's early statement didn't really leave a choice for his son. Edited July 28, 2018 by mikeweil Quote
uli Posted July 28, 2018 Report Posted July 28, 2018 Ball don't lie: 13' Goal! Arsenal 1, Paris Saint Germain 0. Mesut Özil (Arsenal) right footed shot from the centre of the box to the bottom left corner. Assisted by Pierre-Emerick Aubameyang. Quote
Brad Posted July 28, 2018 Report Posted July 28, 2018 Didn’t mean to raise a hornet’s nest so I have no objection to deleting the post. I just thought the non German members who follow football might be interested. Apologies to anyone I offended. Quote
Big Beat Steve Posted July 28, 2018 Report Posted July 28, 2018 (edited) I agree, Brad, and I usnderstand your motivations. And I for one did not feel offended, i just wanted to add a bit to the overall picture in order make it less one-sided. It IS complex. But .... 2 hours ago, mikeweil said: The main point is, I think, that many, if not most, do not really understand the life situation of immigrants, or all the more so, second generation immigrants, like Özil and Gündoğan, live in. There is an important quote in the British article linked: “Not meeting the president would have been disrespecting the roots of my ancestors, who I know would be proud of where I am today,” he said. “For me, it didn’t matter who was president, it mattered that it was the president.” Those who criticize him for that do know little about Turkish rules of courtesy, and their struggle for identity between cultures. .. sorry to disagree, Mike, but that's a cheap way of chickening out in one crucial aspect if he tried to limit it to this so-called "traditions" and "courtesy". Old-time courtesy is all very well within one's own four walls but we do live in today's world and a person of such prominence ought to be aware of the implications, particularly if such a meeting is obviously being instrumentalized for political ambitions like it was here. And this means that he was going well beyond the common ground of passably democratic and decent behavior that a role model is called upon to live up to in a situation like this. No sensible reason to accept double standards. After all, there are enough migrants (including many of Turkish origin) who do not agree with what he did and how he tried to wriggle out of it by trying to "explain" it either. BECAUSE they are aware of the situation of migrants and even more so of what goes on down in their country of origin. You can't have it both ways - enjoy the benefits of a democratic society on the one hand and then, on the other, pretend you have to retreat into so-called traditionalism-minded "courtesy" whenever it suits you and your interests best and hope to get away with it because allegedly your "roots" "dictate" you such behavior. You (meaning people like Özil) certainly cannot separate the office (president) from the person. Least of all in these circumstances and at such a moment. Unless - of course - you are fine with what the person in that office does. But then stand for it and live with the reactions. Sharply criticizing the footballer for such action is not racism per se. From a certain point you (i.e. anybody in such a situation of reconciling conflicting aspects of two cultures) just have to make up your mind and decide where you actually want to be and what kind of society you want to embrace. Particularly if you are considered a role model. That may be a downside of being that prominent and taking in everything that comes with it but that's the way it is. Virtually everywhere. Edited July 28, 2018 by Big Beat Steve Quote
uli Posted July 28, 2018 Report Posted July 28, 2018 Unai Emery (Arsenal) : «Mesut Özil peut prendre la responsabilité d'être capitaine» https://www.lequipe.fr/Football/Actualites/Unai-emery-arsenal-mesut-ozil-peut-prendre-la-responsabilite-d-etre-capitaine/926468 Quote
erwbol Posted August 19, 2018 Report Posted August 19, 2018 Mourinho gone by Christmas. Manchester United have become a joke. Meanwhile, Courtois warming the bench at the Bernabeu. Quote
Brad Posted September 8, 2018 Report Posted September 8, 2018 (edited) The UEFA Nations League kicked off this week. Four leagues with the best teams in A League. Here’s how the competition works, https://www.google.com/amp/s/news.sky.com/story/amp/uefa-nations-league-how-the-new-tournament-works-11493031, which, frankly, isn’t all that clear to me. At any rate, Spain, under new coach Luis Enrique, got off to a good start and beat England 2-1. Edited September 8, 2018 by Brad Quote
erwbol Posted September 9, 2018 Report Posted September 9, 2018 Tonight the Netherlands face Deschamps' France's godawful anti-football in the Nations League. I just hope Koeman gets his line-up right at kick-off this time. First half against Peru was dreadful last Thursday. Quote
erwbol Posted September 9, 2018 Report Posted September 9, 2018 2-1 loss. Could have been worse. Quote
Brad Posted September 11, 2018 Report Posted September 11, 2018 Spain beat Croatia 6-0. We are back! Quote
EKE BBB Posted September 11, 2018 Report Posted September 11, 2018 16 minutes ago, Brad said: Spain beat Croatia 6-0. We are back! Quote
erwbol Posted September 18, 2018 Report Posted September 18, 2018 Liverpool 2 PSG 0 Liverpool picking up where they left off! Quote
Brad Posted September 18, 2018 Report Posted September 18, 2018 Barca was impressive today, particularly Messi — what else is new? Quote
mjazzg Posted September 18, 2018 Report Posted September 18, 2018 1 hour ago, erwbol said: Liverpool 2 PSG 0 Liverpool picking up where they left off! Only just in the end Quote
Brad Posted September 18, 2018 Report Posted September 18, 2018 A draw would have been a disappointment after they jumped out to 2 nil. Quote
Brad Posted October 5, 2018 Report Posted October 5, 2018 (edited) La Liga: boring, uncompetitive and all that. Hang on.... La Liga report by Sid Lowe. Edited October 5, 2018 by Brad Quote
mjazzg Posted October 5, 2018 Report Posted October 5, 2018 I think Mr Lowe is striving a bit too hard to make his point here. I suspect, as does his final paragraph or two, that we're just waiting for the big two to get into their stride and maybe a couple of others, Sevilla and Atlético being the usual suspects. But it's got to be fun when and if it lasts. Football is about competition after all and the longer any league remains competitive is better all round. Quote
Brad Posted October 16, 2018 Report Posted October 16, 2018 A reality check for Spain as they fell convincingly to England. Reading the Spanish press, they are harkening back to what happened in Russia. Also, what is happening to Germany? They could be relegated in the Nations League. They still seem to be in a funk. Quote
mjazzg Posted October 17, 2018 Report Posted October 17, 2018 14 hours ago, Brad said: they fell convincingly to England It's coming home again! good performance by all accounts. Counter attack in the first half and defend for your lives in the second... Quote
Brad Posted October 17, 2018 Report Posted October 17, 2018 11 minutes ago, mjazzg said: It's coming home again! good performance by all accounts. Counter attack in the first half and defend for your lives in the second... What's that sound I hear: Erwbol furiously tapping at his keyboard Quote
mikeweil Posted October 17, 2018 Report Posted October 17, 2018 (edited) 15 hours ago, Brad said: Also, what is happening to Germany? They could be relegated in the Nations League. They still seem to be in a funk. They improved a bit, but IMO Löw is too conservative and reluctant in his approach. He should have opted for more younger energetic players before the World Championship. After being the champion, things are bound to be less glorious. He wanted to play it safe when taking chances would have been the better option. Same in the German national league with the Bavarians. Their funk just begun, so he should not have elected so many players from their team. With those young fast players, you need more than experience. Any small mistake is taken advantage of. Edited October 17, 2018 by mikeweil Quote
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