electric saxophone, and electric trumpet (beyond Miles especially)

[Rooster_Ties]

OK, Sangry posted this earlier (an album I probably just have to get now - )...

...and that got me thinkin' about electric sax and trumpet. Rather than constrain the topic to any one particular thang, I just thought I'd open up an "electric horns" corner, and see what happens.

Which came first, electric sax, or electric trumpet? Was Miles the first to record on electric trumpet? (I think I answered my own question down below -- look for the Clark Terry album cover.)

BTW, I'm pretty sure 'electric sax' doesn't just mean one particular setup either -- what were and are the most common options?? (meaning both historically, and currently). Same question(s) for 'electric trumpet'.

Anybody here have experience playing either one?

I think my personal exposure to either instrument is mostly various electric trumpet things (Miles in particular, but some others here and there, mostly imitating Miles 20 years after the fact -- well, that, and Eddie Henderson of course, back in the day).

The only electric sax I've ever heard is maybe Eddie Harris' "A Tale of Two Cities" originally issued on Joel Dorn's Night Records label in 1991. (Been years since I've heard it, but I think I remember there being some electric sax on that record.) That, and there was a local jazz band here in KC years ago (Boko Maru), and the leader/sax-player had some kind of chorus/octave electronic thing he could connect to his tenor sax (I don't recall him using it on alto), and it would play a triad/chord of some sort based on whatever note he would play. Either that, or it would play in octaves too (if I remember right).

What recordings should one have if one were to want some good examples of electric sax, or (beyond Miles, of course), of electric trumpet??

Edited June 3, 2007 by Rooster_Ties

[Guy Berger]

A couple of rock guys used electric saxophone -- Chris Wood (Traffic), Ian McDonald (King Crimson). I'm not a big fan of the sound.

Also, Lee Konitz played a varitone in the late 60s.

Guy

Edited June 2, 2007 by Guy

[jazzbo]

I love the sound if done right. Eddie Harris did it right. Stitt made interesting lines with it.

I am very fond of Eddie Harris and his use of the Varitone.

Not sure that I encountered any electric trumpet before Miles in my listening. . . .

[Guy Berger]

Coltrane owned a varitone and even endorsed it, though he never recorded with it.

Guy

[clifford_thornton]

The Contemporary Jazz Quintet - TCJQ - (Debut)

reissued on the Steeplechase twofer Actions.

[clifford_thornton]

Ted Daniel used a pitch-divider (?) on recordings with Andrew Cyrille; there's an interesting duo on Junction (IPS), which also features David S. Ware and Lisle Ellis.

[jazzbo]

Coltrane owned a varitone and even endorsed it, though he never recorded with it.

Guy

Yes. I always keep thinking we'll get a tape at one point leaked out. . . but not yet.

[Rooster_Ties]

Google is my friend...

Review from AMG...

It's What's Happenin' - The Varitone Sound of Clark Terry (Impulse, 1967)

Not many will bother to recall that Clark Terry was the first trumpeter to make a recording with Selmer's Varitone attachment — an electronic hookup to an amplifier that allowed a horn player to play octaves. Though the instrument quickly fell out of favor after a very brief vogue, it still produced an attractively soulful sound that was a good fit with Terry's jaunty, slurry, note-bending manner. Naturally, there is yet another ride on the "Mumbles" train called "Electric Mumbles," in which Terry talks back and forth to his horn, and he sings, scats and mumbles a few choruses of "Take the 'A' Train." But he also plays some mighty soul-satisfying blues on his electric horn on "Take Me Back to Elkhart" (Selmer's headquarters), really exploiting the opened-up lower register. The rhythm section (Don Friedman, piano; George Duvivier, bass; Dave Bailey, drums) plays straight and solid jazz behind their happy-go-lucky tinkerer/leader; there is nothing unmusically sensational about anything that happens here.

Other opinions of this?? Shame it isn't on CD (or at least the AMG doesn't think it's ever been on CD).

Edited June 3, 2007 by Rooster_Ties

[jazzbo]

I don't think it's on cd. I've never heard it. Could be very cool!

[Rooster_Ties]

WAY more than I ever knew about The Varitone "Electric Saxophone"

The Varitone "Electric Saxophone"

In the history of saxophone manufacturing, there have been many radical concepts which have either captured the hearts of performers, or dropped into obscurity. Many such ideas that do disappear from the menu are actually stunning improvements that just never seem to catch on; the Grafton acrylic saxophone comes quickly to mind.

In 1965, H & A Selmer, Inc. began to develop one of the most radical concepts ever envisioned: an 'electric' saxophone. The company called on Electro-Voice (EV) to assist them in the electronic portions of the product. Initially, the saxophone was meant to have a built-in means of amplification so acoustic feedback was not such an issue. What developed was considerably more complex than a simple amplifier. Through conversations with players, and heavy development on the part of both companies, the resulting product was a radical shift in the tonal concept of the saxophone. With this unit installed, a musician had complete control over their output volume and tone quality, and even more amazing was the ability to add echo, tremolo and a concurrent sub-octave synthesized tone.

When Selmer began developing the instrument, they set several important guidelines that made the addition more player-friendly. First and foremost, the modifications were not in any way to impede the saxophonist's normal playing technique or timbre. The goal was to keep the saxophone as an acoustic instrument and not an electronic one. Also, the ability to "turn off" the addition and play in a non-amplified manner was paramount. The unit had to be rugged enough to withstand travel and rigorous playing conditions. Controls were to be easy to adjust on the fly, uncomplicated, and if possible, physically mounted on the saxophone.

The initial concept of sound pickup and microphone placement had been developed in France by Jean Selmer, an engineer at Henri Selmer et Cie., Paris. He found that a sampling of sound from inside the horn was necessary to reproduce tone patterns generated by the instrument without interference from external acoustics. The placement of the pickup microphone became the first technical problem.

A series of standing waves inside the body of the saxophone during playing creates many nodal points of increased or reduced sound pressure. These pressure points vary with playing technique and the note being blown. Contrary to what seem obvious, the bell is not the best place for pickup placement. The best possible method would be to place microphones at every tone hole, but this was obviously implausible and expensive.

Since all of the standing waves in the saxophone emanate from the mouthpiece and neck of the saxophone, that became the optimum location for the microphone. However, a thorough understanding of acoustic theory and mathematics along with years of experimentation had been necessary before the exact spot was determined. It was obvious that this was no "do-it-yourself" undertaking, since the placement of the pickup could not vary even a fraction of an inch. When the pickup is in the wrong location, some notes will sound louder than others and there will be a definite loss of tone quality.

The microphone itself was the second important development in the invention of the Veritone system. Under license from Selmer Paris, EV refined the original pickup using a ceramic pressure-sensitive element. The stiffness of this device was high enough to compare to the instrument itself. Velocity microphones, having resonant frequencies within the range of the saxophone caused wide variances in volume. Also to be considered were the extremely high sound pressure levels generated in the instrument and the acidic moisture produced by the player's breath. The resulting microphone was about .75" in diameter and .5" thick. It was constructed and placed so normal playing technique would not be affected.

Once the basic pickup design and application were settled, the engineers turned their attention to the control functions and the addition of the various "effects" so easily available to other instruments using electronic technology available at the time. The control unit of the Veritone was mounted on the saxophone in close proximity to the players right hand on top of the sculptured key guard. In theory, the dials could be adjusted while playing with the left hand.

Controls included three knobs and four tab switches similar in function to organ stop tabs. Rotating knobs adjusted volume, echo and loudness of the sub-octave. One of the switches turned tremolo on and off, while the other three controlled tone quality with a primitive equalizer.

The preamp, power amplifier, power supply and speaker for the saxophone were built into a separate cabinet. The preamp contained the circuitry necessary for the tremolo, echo and sub-octave effects.

Although the Veritone did have some performers as advocates (notably Eddie Harris), it did not achieve the wide success that Selmer and EV had anticipated. Also, many players were concerned about the addition of the pickup directly into the neck, since it was perceived that this was an irreparable modification, should the player choose to remove the Varitone unit.

Another oversight on the part of Selmer was the fact that many players at the time chose the Mark VI for jazz performances where the Varitone was an unneeded and cumbersome annoyance. In recording situations, the standard microphone still reigned supreme. Players were also reluctant to tote around the associated speaker cabinet as a regular part of their setup.

The Varitone was in many ways ahead of its time, and could in fact be made today in a much smaller version with almost no impact on the instrument. Perhaps a company will again offer a system such as this. But, just like the Grafton, innovation does not necessarily equal profits.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

©1998 Jason DuMars

source

Edited June 3, 2007 by Rooster_Ties

[marcello]

Ted Daniel used a pitch-divider (?) on recordings with Andrew Cyrille; there's an interesting duo on Junction (IPS), which also features David S. Ware and Lisle Ellis.

I saw/heard him with that attachment at Ali's Alley. Same group, I belive.

I have a recording where Benny Bailey uses a electronic attachment.

Benny Bailey - Mirrors ( on Freedom)

[JSngry]

Don Ellis.

[kh1958]

Stitt's Prestige LP Soul Electricity is a nice companion to the Left Bank live CD.

Also, Freddie Hubbard's High Energy is pretty good.

[mikeweil]

Very Milesian - except for bassist Anthony Jackson all were in Miles' band at some time: Dave Liebman, Steve Grossman, Reggie Lucas, Al Foster, Mtume.

Terumasa Hino does his Miles thing, the leader is keyboarder Masabumi Kikuchi. You can't get any closer to the Milesian sound, but the Japanese touches make this unique. A great album. Terumasa Hino plays electrified trumpet here.

Edited June 3, 2007 by mikeweil

[GA Russell]

Thanks for that informative post, Rooster.

I suppose that the EWI (electonic wind instrument) that Michael Brecker used should be considered something like "the Varitone that caught on". I've never seen a picture of it. Now that Brecker has passed away, perhaps the EWI will fade away as well.

[jazzbo]

Don Ellis.

Right. First used sfter Clark Terry? Before Miles?

[Guy Berger]

Thanks for that informative post, Rooster.

I suppose that the EWI (electonic wind instrument) that Michael Brecker used should be considered something like "the Varitone that caught on". I've never seen a picture of it. Now that Brecker has passed away, perhaps the EWI will fade away as well.

Wasn't the lyricon another electric wind instrument?

edit: yup.

Guy

Edited June 3, 2007 by Guy

[JSngry]

Don Ellis.

Right. First used sfter Clark Terry? Before Miles?

Before Miles, defintely. And a lot more "elaborately".

Whe was the Terry thing done? Released in '67, but recorded when? Ellis was into a whole range of electronics besides the Varitone, btw. Ring modulators, multividers, god knows what else. If it was out there, he would try it.

Looking at some of these things, you gotta consider the "industry background" of something like the Varitone. Terry & Trane were no doubt approached by Selmer, not the other way around. In the Selmer boardroom/wherever Trane was "the leading innovator in jazz today" & Terry was no doubt "one of America's most widely heard trumpeters" or soemthing like that. Believe me - neither one of them paid a cent to get hooked up with their Varitones. As for the others, I can't say, but I do know that endorsement deals are one of the best-kep secrets between musicians and the "general public", so nothing would surprise me, like if Selmer gave Konitz one w/o him even asking for it and he fiddled around with it and thought "hmmmmm....ok, interesting. Let's try it for a while..." as opposed to him waking up from a dream in a cold sweat and reaching for the phone saying "Goddamit, I got to check out this electric shit. Manny, send me a rig. NOW!!!"

[jazzbo]

Don Ellis.

Right. First used sfter Clark Terry? Before Miles?

Before Miles, defintely. And a lot more "elaborately".

Whe was the Terry thing done? Released in '67, but recorded when? Ellis was into a whole range of electronics besides the Varitone, btw. Ring modulators, multividers, god knows what else. If it was out there, he would try it.

Looking at some of these things, you gotta consider the "industry background" of something like the Varitone. Terry & Trane were no doubt approached by Selmer, not the other way around. In the Selmer boardroom/wherever Trane was "the leading innovator in jazz today" & Terry was no doubt "one of America's most widely heard trumpeters" or soemthing like that. Believe me - neither one of them paid a cent to get hooked up with their Varitones. As for the others, I can't say, but I do know that endorsement deals are one of the best-kep secrets between musicians and the "general public", so nothing would surprise me, like if Selmer gave Konitz one w/o him even asking for it and he fiddled around with it and thought "hmmmmm....ok, interesting. Let's try it for a while..." as opposed to him waking up from a dream in a cold sweat and reaching for the phone saying "Goddamit, I got to check out this electric shit. Manny, send me a rig. NOW!!!"

Thanks. I'm kindof ignorant of Ellis from about 1965 til about 1970 or so.

I wouldn't doubt that Terry or Trane were approached and didn't pay a cent and didn't seek one out.

Ironically. . .you think Eddie Harris might have had to shell out the dough>? Maybe. . . .

[Rooster_Ties]

Has anbody here ever heard the Clark Terry "Varitone" Impulse date?

Has anybody here ever played a Selmer Varitone sax? Or (personally) know someone who has? (paging Jim Sangrey)

Thanks!

[JSngry]

I played a tenor ran through a multivider in high school, once or twice. The band director also owned a music store and would bring one in for a day or two every so often. Difficult to control (at least for a high schooler), but not impossible, and the sense of "possibility" made itself readily apparent.

Tried a lyricon out a few times during the 70s in various music stores. Weird, not immediately to my liking, but not repugnant either. Lacking as I did at the time savings, generous income, good credit, and/or endorsement deals, that was as far as it went.

EWI? Maybe once, but if so, at the height of my Jazz Snob Purist Caveman days. I probably refused to remember that I even thought about it...

Edited June 4, 2007 by JSngry

[JSngry]

Oh, btw, there is/was no such thing as a "Varitone sax". The Varitone was a device that worked off an input from the instrument, almost always through a pickup (usually on the neck; I've got an old King tenor whose neck has been patched/repaired as a result of having once been altered to accomodate a pickup attachment), although a few rare people ran it off a mike input. It wasn't a separate instrument.

[clifford_thornton]

Is that akin to the "bug" that people like Elton Dean, Gary Windo etc. used in the '70s? This was apparently because they were playing in loud rock bands and would otherwise not be heard so well...

[JSngry]

No idea what "the bug" is/was. Got any more details?

Now, I seem to remember horn pickups that were used for straight amplification in lieu of miking, no pitch/tone alteration possibilities, but they never really caught on because, geez, that is what mikes are for after all...

[DukeCity]

Oh, btw, there is/was no such thing as a "Varitone sax". The Varitone was a device that worked off an input from the instrument, almost always through a pickup (usually on the neck; I've got an old King tenor whose neck has been patched/repaired as a result of having once been altered to accomodate a pickup attachment), although a few rare people ran it off a mike input. It wasn't a separate instrument.

I've seen a couple of Selmer horns that were modified for Varitonic activities. In addition the pickup on the neck of the horn, there was also a long tube or conduit that was attached to the body (tucked in amidst the rest of the keywork and lacquered to look like just one more rod). Apparently the wires would go from the neck pickup, down through that tube, then out from the lower end of the horn to the Varitone unit/amp. What I don't know is whether this modification was done at the Selmer factory, or if the Varitone folks bought up a bunch of horns and did the work on them.

Over the last year or so, I've done some experimenting with some effects on my tenor. I got a Digitech vocal processor, and have used it on some funk gigs to do some octaves, some fourthy doublings, and some envelope filter/wah effects. A little goes a long way...