A touchy subject, so bring your big boy pants

[Tom Storer]

I guarantee you - if Eskimo Folk Music became something that the world went crazy over and there were dollars to be made and cultural institutions to be built and White People really got into playing the stuff because they really liked it and felt it at at least some level, there would be a "Eskimo Folk Music, once the province of a handful of people, has now become A Universal Language that the whole world participates in" thing going on, and that there would be some white people who got confused, insulted, hurt, whatever if/when they went to hang/jam with some Eskimo Folk musicians and felt a funny vibe, just as there would be some 5th generation Eskimo Surfboarder in SoCal who decided to reclaim his roots simply by saying that he was reclaiming his roots.

Just to get back to post #87, and a fine post it was, I feel duty-bound to issue a political correctness report concerning how to reference the circumpolar aboriginal peoples: according to Wikipedia, "The term Eskimo has fallen out of favour in Canada and Greenland, where it is considered pejorative and the term Inuit has become more common. However, Eskimo is still considered acceptable among Alaska Natives of Yupik and Inupiaq (Inuit) heritage, and is preferred over Inuit as a collective reference. To date, no replacement term for Eskimo inclusive of all Inuit and Yupik people has achieved acceptance across the geographical area inhabited by the Inuit and Yupik peoples."

[John L]

Some interesting comments here.

I don't consider myself to be a musicial artist and don't strive consciously for some sort of individual creative voice. On the other hand, I am white and love to play and sing blues, R&B, and gospel. I do it sometimes on stage in front of people. That is the music that I grew up with and feel the most in my soul. That is what comes out of ME. If I tried to do white country music, it would be wrong. That would feel fake.

I am very therefore very sympathic with white artists who play black music because that is the music that they feel inside themselves. That is the best that any artist can do from the point of view of "authenticity." The critics, writers, and listeners can then try to make more objective judgements about what is authentic and what isn't.

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

John's got a good point that's been obscured in this thread.

It's neccessary for all musicians to find an audience. The easiest way is to play the (contemporary) music of your own community to members of your own community. Doing anything else is harder. And the question of authenticity inevitably arises. And gets you comments such as SoulStream has been experiencing.

But a man's gotta do what a man's gotta do.

MG

[Soul Stream]

All white musicians in the South would be better off playing C&W or Western Swing or being singer-songwriters, or rockabilly, punk, ect. players. Those are the white musicians that are held in high regard by their community. Playing jazz is I'm sure a lot like being a white guy in a reggae band.

[Hot Ptah]

Coming late to this thread, and with the caveat that I have not read the entire thread yet, I would only comment that I have often viewed national jazz concerts in a section at the Gem Theater at 18th and Vine in Kansas City in which almost all of the people around me are African Americans, aged 40 and up. They show no signs whatever of distinguishing between the race of the players on stage. Some of the most approving comments from this section have been for Renee Rosnes' playing on a blues, when she was in James Moody's group. I have heard the people around me literally screaming out approval for a white bass player's solo.

I see no difference at all in the way that this all black audience reacts to white musicians at concerts, compared to a white audience. The only difference is that the African Americans tend to dress a great deal better when they go to a concert, compared to a white audience.

I feel that pointing to this one anecdote may be appropriate, in that I think that there are unfortunately not all that many examples any more of an all black audience for jazz in any location.

Edited June 5, 2007 by Hot Ptah

[Hot Ptah]

Also, Blindman's Blues Forum has a long, detailed discussion about the white v. black musician issue in a thread called "Blues Foundation Slammed." The thread began with an African American blues society leader complaining that the national Blues Foundation helps to perpetuate the situation in which nearly all blues musicians with gigs today are white.

Edited June 5, 2007 by Hot Ptah

[Guest donald petersen]

http://www.drummerworld.com/drummers/Rick_Marotta.html

well if you watch these quicktime clips, i think this is the perception some people have of white dudes playing the jazz. but i guess perception is the wrong word because these clips are reality. they happened.

[JSngry]

All white musicians in the South would be better off playing C&W or Western Swing or being singer-songwriters, or rockabilly, punk, ect. players. Those are the white musicians that are held in high regard by their community. Playing jazz is I'm sure a lot like being a white guy in a reggae band.

Dude, you're taking this shit way more personally than is healthy or realistic...

What I wonder is this - why does the "high regard" of the "white community" matter so much to you? Are you "white" first or are you a musician first? Whoever you are first is the community whose "regard" you should be concerned with, and even then only up to a point.

What this is all about is far bigger than music. It's about the way that our society (and that of the world when you get right down to it...) has been set up for people to fit into preconceived slots that facilitate an easy ride for all concerned (and if "easy" does not always = "of maximum benefit" to one, some, or all concerned, well hey...). Anytime anybody finds themself rolling around outside those slots, it generates all sorts of "identity crises" for all types of peoples. Some of this is really and truly innocent, grassroots naivete, and some of it's not. There are all kinds of forces at work here...

I suggest that you read some Anthony Braxton (Forces In Motion is a good "entry point", even if Braxton's not the author per se). Seriously. Whether or not you can handle his music is besides the point. The guy is by far and away the most perceptive commentator/analyst/whatever on all aspects of the musician/society dynamic I've yet to read. Trust me.

There are (at least) two thing you need to know (and should know) if not now, then ASAFP-

1) "Identity" & "usefulness to society" are paths that are very much entwined, and you can best believe that a lot of that is not coincidental.

2) "Whiny White Guy Who Can't Understand Why People Want To Factor In His Race When Evaluating His Playing And Gets Bent Out Of Shape About It" is yet another Music Business Cliche and as such is a way to navigate deeper into the problem, not out of it. "The Powers That Be" just love cliches. It makes their job so much easier...

This shit was in place long before we (as in you & I, as in jazz, as in America, as in Western Civilaiztion, as in etc.etc.etc.) got here, and it'll be here long after we (as in you & I, as in jazz, as in America, as in Western Civilaiztion, as in etc.etc.etc.) leave. The best advice I can offer you or anybody else is to understand how/why all this came to be (in the broad sense), how/why it's so easy to perpetuate (including accepting that the stereotypical Jive White Guy With at Best Half A Clue But at Least Some Of The Money is not totally without justification and how that can be exploited by everybody concerned for their own benefit), check yourself as often as needed x 1.25 to see how things in your world are getting played (out or otherwise), accept that life in a world of perpetual attempted manipulation may or may not be better than death in a world without it, but until you're willing to find out for yourself, hey.

Proceed accordingly.

[Noj]

Latimore "There's A Red Neck In The Soul Band"

I went out to a club in the ghetto

A big crowd of people lined up at the door

And I asked someone to tell me what was happening

'Cause I ain't never seen this many folks here before

He said, "There's a red neck in the soul band, he's gettin' down."

There's a red neck in the soul band, he's gettin' down

As I pushed my way through to the inside

I could see the stage was not very far

On the stage there were five funky musicians

One was a tall, skinny white boy playin' guitar

There's a red neck in the soul band, he's gettin' down

There's a red neck in the soul band, he's gettin' down

Go 'head Red!

'Bout that time ol' Red stepped up to the microphone

"Now folks, I know some of you probably been wondering about me

I wonder about myself sometimes

See, when I play this guitar I start wondering

I start wondering about my own family tree!"

Go 'head Red!

[Guest donald petersen]

have i told this story?

my friend in the mid 1990s played in the URI jazz ensemble or whatever they had and he went with some ensemble mates to the newport jazz festival and les mccann was there and one of the ensemble members went up to les mccann and introduced himself and said he too was a jazz musician, etc. and les mccann said "white boy playin' jazz? i don't think so!" but i guess this guy was a young college student and probably looked sort of like a hippie or a nerd, i am guessing. then apparently mccann said "boy, you ever get a HARD ON?"

but we are talking a college student in rhode island who had probably paid NO dues here so it isn't really relevant. funny though....

[Soul Stream]

Jim in response to what you've written. I think the original intent of my thread no longer exists here. I think it's interesting to get people's real perspectives on this sort of issue. Is it something I think about every day. Not in the least. Does it cross my mind on certain occassions...sure. That's just the reality of these circumstances. But maybe ya'll are reading my into it than I intended at this point.

[Guy Berger]

http://www.drummerworld.com/drummers/Rick_Marotta.html

well if you watch these quicktime clips, i think this is the perception some people have of white dudes playing the jazz. but i guess perception is the wrong word because these clips are reality. they happened.

Dip, I'm not sure I understand your point. Surely we can find examples for every ethnicity/gender/religion/nationality/whatever to generate a given stereotype.

Guy

ps I think we can all agree that Jerry Marotta should not try that again.

Edited June 6, 2007 by Guy

[Guest donald petersen]

guy, that is rick marotta. weird to think he layed down some smooth grooves for steely dan.

anyways you are right that you could throw hiram bullock in there and i am sure he would have felt at home.

[Guy Berger]

guy, that is rick marotta. weird to think he layed down some smooth grooves for steely dan.

Crazy, I didn't know there were two Marottas!

Guy

[Guest donald petersen]

but when you watch him you think...i could do that!