ghost of miles Posted June 2, 2007 Report Share Posted June 2, 2007 Well, here's a paradox for the past/present paradigm: we live in a culture that's more "immediate" than ever before, in terms of communication, while at the same time we have far more access to the past--at least in terms of preserved media--than any generation before us has ever had. Inclined to agree with what Jim says about the dance underground--and the thing is, "jazz" and "blues" as most of us here define and enjoy said musics, are already pretty much the stuff of museums. And I'll say yet again that "jazz" bands of the future are going to be far more varied--already are, in fact--in terms of format, instrumentation, etc., than our current conceptions, as will jazz itself. I personally love the standard piano trio, quartet/quintet groups and such, and those formats will continue--as do, say, string quartets in the classical world. Elements of that sound will probably always be at work in jazz, going down the road, even beyond the realm of repertory... but at some point (already happening in certain quarters) musicians are going to say, "Why should I accept these hand-me-down self-limitations?" Creativity depends on interior freedom... and the past can either be a instrument of learning, or an instrument of slavery. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soul Stream Posted June 2, 2007 Author Report Share Posted June 2, 2007 The question is...are you playing your TRUTH? I know yes, 100% for me. That may be jive to someone just walking in and seeing me play. Those are the folks I'm talking about. People who are judge and jury to MY truth and aren't buying it. That's a hurtful trip. Well screw them. For real. But to keep it real, you gotta say screw them if they say they like it too. Yes, I take everything with a grain of salt. Good and bad. Nobody's perspective has served me as well as my own over the years. Also, maybe it's a southern thing. But there's a long history of white guys playing black music. From Bob Wills To the Vaughan Brothers. That stuff is happening every day down here. It's part of the landscape. There is a history there and that history is still being written. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Magnificent Goldberg Posted June 2, 2007 Report Share Posted June 2, 2007 Nobody's perspective has served me as well as my own over the years. RIGHT!!!! MG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted June 2, 2007 Report Share Posted June 2, 2007 Well if it makes anybody feel any better, Campisi's in Dallas serves up some of the worst swill masquerading as "Italian food" in the tri-continent area, yet the business continues to boom, maybe because in the public eye, the Mafia connections of the father/founder = that if it was good enough for a Mafia boss, it must be pretty damn good. But the people that know Italian food know that it's pure shit. So hey. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim R Posted June 2, 2007 Report Share Posted June 2, 2007 Also, maybe it's a southern thing. But there's a long history of white guys playing black music. From Bob Wills To the Vaughan Brothers. That stuff is happening every day down here. I wouldn't say it's an exclusively southern thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morganized Posted June 2, 2007 Report Share Posted June 2, 2007 For someone like myself who's only played 'black' music their whole career. The older I get, the more I realize a white guy playing black music is just not going to get over to some (maybe a majority) of people. You're just not seen as being authentic these days unless the music you're playing is race-appropriate. It's not 'real' enough. I'm sure there has always been a lot of this. But in the last 5 years, I think it's really gotten worse with the 25 and under crowd. I've heard/read these terms so much over the years that it's getting a bit old... lame white boy blues band lame white boy funk band lame white boy R&B band lame white boy jazz band I say this knowing there are just as many lame ass black bands in the same catagories. However, I see white audiences giving those guys a pass many times, because they percieve them as 'authentic.' I'm sure there a lots of folks here on the board who might secretly, or not so secretly hold the same views. So let's be honest among us...who here is a "if it's not black, it's whack" kind of music fan. You're just not seen as being authentic these days unless the music you're playing is race-appropriate. At least your in good company. It all probably started with Bix & Tram and has been going on ever since. Can't please everybody. Especially the ignorant, racially-minded "fu@K heads" out there walking the earth. Art Pepper sure fought the stereotype. I think it is written about several times in some of the books about his life and career. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Magnificent Goldberg Posted June 2, 2007 Report Share Posted June 2, 2007 i know you're a cool dude & all but you're sort of on the conservative end of things musically, which is to say even the most advanced BJP or JOS or whomever is considered conservative by Monk/Duke/Mingus/Braxton standards... right or wrong, that's just how it IS baby... hate to say but you can't be surprised when you find that yr audience for conservative music is... uh-oh... also very conservative, which in this case is opposite of political conservatism in that their greater empathy is towards black folk not white. Interesting point. But maybe you're overstating it, Clem. I think I've got pretty conservative tastes but wouldn't lump myself in with SS's customers. Maybe it's the location, but if so, they're the minority. MG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soul Stream Posted June 2, 2007 Author Report Share Posted June 2, 2007 Sorry Clem...I'm not sure I agree with much of this...especially the Roky bit which I consider an overrated has-been (sorry) whom I lumpy in with Daniel Johnston on the "these guys are geniuses 'cause they have mental problems" Texas music sidenotes: SRV = real, tho' i'm not a fan Double Trouble = lame white boy blues & funk Jimme Vaughan = good player, NOT a songwriter Jon Dee Graham = NOT a songwriter, who cares Gurf Morlix = HACK, not a songwriter Alejandro Escovedo = absurdly overpraised songwriter Mike Buck = underrated drummer Doug Sahm = Doug Sahm!!! (motherfucker) Roky = Monk (almost) Austin singer-songers from Abra Moore to Fracasso to Malford to Robsison = suck suck suck suck suck suck Lucinda = real BTW if anyone's close to Monk in this town...it's Jimmie Vaughan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
montg Posted June 2, 2007 Report Share Posted June 2, 2007 Inclined to agree with what Jim says about the dance underground--and the thing is, "jazz" and "blues" as most of us here define and enjoy said musics, are already pretty much the stuff of museums. It's hard for me to understand the basis of these types of sentiments. Jazz is more relevant than ever because it's needed in this culture more than ever. Is jazz considered to simply be an artifact by some because it's not popular (as if it ever was--and to carry along that line of thinking, is American Idol relevant because it has mass appeal?). Is jazz an artifact because it doesn't have street cred or something? That's what John Hammond was saying about Ellington in 1935--his music was vapid because it was un-Negroid...Duke "has purposely kept himself from any contact with the troubles of his people..." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soul Stream Posted June 3, 2007 Author Report Share Posted June 3, 2007 how so on Jimmie? a trad journmeyman in best sense but what else? Clem, Jimmie is one of the deepest musical cats you will ever meet. His approach to music and aesthetic/style is the level of musical genius. To be around him, watch the way he thinks about music is pretty amazing. Can't say enough great things about Jimmie...he's single-handedly changed a lot of the musical landscape in these parts. And this is beyond any T-birds, solo career, SRV connection, guitar-queer stuff. If you think of Jimmy only as a trad journeyman, I've got to look at all your other Austin-based musical opinions through another filter. Doug Sahm would be the first to tell you all this. And Jimmie would be the first to tell you about the genius of Doug as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndrewHill Posted June 3, 2007 Report Share Posted June 3, 2007 I remember a reverse version of this back in the 80's when quite a few rock bands appeared on the horizon with members that were black. Living Colour, King's X, Fishbone, 24-7 Spyz, etc. I couldn't believe all of the conversations I heard about people being "shocked" that these guys could really "rock". (for some reason Hendrix and Thin Lizzy never came up in these discussions). Like it's some genetic thing that you have to be white to be a convincing rock band. Of course that is just as much utter crap as saying you can't play funk if you're white. I think these bands had to work even harder to gain respect since it wasn't just the music that was important, but proving the perception wrong. I've seen all of those bands live over the years (hell, I've probably seen King's X 15 times) and I NEVER focus on the color of their skin. Used to think that 24-7 Spyz was pretty cool in its time (although I never thought, wow there's black people in the band). I just thought they had a unique sound that was cool. Funny enough, Vernon Reid honed his chops with Ronald Shannon Jackson and the Decoding Society back in the early 80's. Living Colour was a very very good band in its day and Corey Glover was an excellent singer. Not once though, did I think "wow, what a great black band". I only have the highest respect for them as musicians and it does not make a difference what color they are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clifford_thornton Posted June 3, 2007 Report Share Posted June 3, 2007 *** uh, problem is poster #xx, those black rock bands sucked more often than they didn't; who was funkier, for real-- the Minutemen, three ofays from San Pedro, or Living Colour, fronted by a sub-Sammy Hagar flopping around in a wet suit? melanoma can't by you soul (but edc can get it for you wholesale). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shawn Posted June 3, 2007 Report Share Posted June 3, 2007 Just for the record, I'm not actually a fan of Living Colour (although I like a few tunes, Open Letter To A Landlord, Solace In You), I just thought it was relevant to the conversation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Magnificent Goldberg Posted June 3, 2007 Report Share Posted June 3, 2007 (edited) (of all Winston & Vandermark's innumerable ersatz highbrow turds have EITHER of 'em faked an organ side? hmmmmmmmm.) Hmmmmmmmm - Big John Patton, Live at the Elbo Room, Chicago. BJP, Ken Vandermark, George Freeman, Robert Shy. 27 March 1999. Since I heard it I've wondered whether KV had done his homework or if what he played was genuine. I suspect the former but, he'd fuckin' DONE his fuckin' homework! That session is a bleedin' marvel! (And I'm not saying you're wrong, 'cos this is the ONLY Vandermark I've ever heard. Would you expect anything else of me, I ask you? ) MG PS and Vandermark, I see, arranged a Syl Johnson album, which I also haven't heard... Edited June 3, 2007 by The Magnificent Goldberg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Magnificent Goldberg Posted June 3, 2007 Report Share Posted June 3, 2007 (edited) You've posted stuff along these lines before, Jim. I've always felt there was something not quite right, though not wrong also, about this idea. [Tell you what (again) - the "dance underground" is waaaay ahead of the rest of the music world as far as this whole thing goes. Whatever/however one feels about the music itself, that shit is the truest example of a freakin' pan-global (sic) "melting pot" that I know of. That more than anything else is what gets me excited about it - the possibilities inherent in the attitude that says be who you are, bring what you got, we don't give a damn if you're black, white, Asian, German, straight, gay, spiritual, hedonist, right-handed, cleft-palleted, whatever, it don't matter. Bring what you got and let's party with it, it - and you - are all good like that. But don't bring your roots. Don't bring your experience of life in your society that makes you a unique and valuable human being. Just bring what we can use to make into a product. Because the people buying the prodict don't give a toss for your unique value as a human being.There's got to be a way to bring that deep, fundamental spirit of acceptance/inclusiveness into the "mainstream" and build it into a general lifestyle. If that means turning away from conscious "Art Music" for a little while or longer, so be it. "Art" will inevitably happen in spite of itself. But so will cultural inertia. Sorry to insert that little rant in there, but that's the way I see it. I can't argue with your intentions and ideals, Jim, and won't, but it's like the joke about the Irishman asked for directions to some place: "I wouldn't start from here." And yes, I know there's no alternative - that's the joke. MG Edited June 3, 2007 by The Magnificent Goldberg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted June 3, 2007 Report Share Posted June 3, 2007 Sorry, MG, I'm not at all hearing/feeling that at all, at least not in the stuff I've been getting into. Either we're hearing different things or hearing things differently. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Magnificent Goldberg Posted June 3, 2007 Report Share Posted June 3, 2007 Sorry, MG, I'm not at all hearing/feeling that at all, at least not in the stuff I've been getting into. Either we're hearing different things or hearing things differently. Possibly; or possibly. MG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Magnificent Goldberg Posted June 3, 2007 Report Share Posted June 3, 2007 * ain't heard that BJP, but i assure you MG the couple dozen other Vandermark side i have heard in lotsa different styles range from tolerable band exercises to putrid, leader-chops-light conceptualism tho' i'll grant too his "cover" tribute to Yusef Lateef's Centaur & Unicorn (performed entirely on mussette) was, uh, "special." I greatly welcome that insight, Clem. MG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted June 3, 2007 Report Share Posted June 3, 2007 re: Disco Tejas, which i'm 1000000% in support of (even if most folks here gloss over that version)... Gee, I though I was just developing a complex or something... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy Berger Posted June 3, 2007 Report Share Posted June 3, 2007 (edited) * ain't heard that BJP, but i assure you MG the couple dozen other Vandermark side i have heard in lotsa different styles range from tolerable band exercises to putrid, leader-chops-light conceptualism tho' i'll grant too his "cover" tribute to Yusef Lateef's Centaur & Unicorn (performed entirely on mussette) was, uh, "special." I greatly welcome that insight, Clem. MG It should be noted that Clem's opinion on Vandermark is not a universal one. Guy Edited June 3, 2007 by Guy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted June 3, 2007 Report Share Posted June 3, 2007 You've posted stuff along these lines before, Jim. I've always felt there was something not quite right, though not wrong also, about this idea. [Tell you what (again) - the "dance underground" is waaaay ahead of the rest of the music world as far as this whole thing goes. Whatever/however one feels about the music itself, that shit is the truest example of a freakin' pan-global (sic) "melting pot" that I know of. That more than anything else is what gets me excited about it - the possibilities inherent in the attitude that says be who you are, bring what you got, we don't give a damn if you're black, white, Asian, German, straight, gay, spiritual, hedonist, right-handed, cleft-palleted, whatever, it don't matter. Bring what you got and let's party with it, it - and you - are all good like that. But don't bring your roots. Don't bring your experience of life in your society that makes you a unique and valuable human being. Just bring what we can use to make into a product. Because the people buying the prodict don't give a toss for your unique value as a human being.There's got to be a way to bring that deep, fundamental spirit of acceptance/inclusiveness into the "mainstream" and build it into a general lifestyle. If that means turning away from conscious "Art Music" for a little while or longer, so be it. "Art" will inevitably happen in spite of itself. But so will cultural inertia. Sorry to insert that little rant in there, but that's the way I see it. I can't argue with your intentions and ideals, Jim, and won't, but it's like the joke about the Irishman asked for directions to some place: "I wouldn't start from here." And yes, I know there's no alternative - that's the joke. MG Sorry, MG, I'm not at all hearing/feeling that at all, at least not in the stuff I've been getting into. Either we're hearing different things or hearing things differently. Ok, I was just back from a road gig when I read/posted last night, and I see that I misinterpreted your comment as a dig against the musicians, producers, & "deep fans" of the music. I still disagree with that, all you gotta do is check out the umpteeen jillion (my new favorite lucky number, btw) blogs, internet radio shows/podcasts, etc to realize pretty quickly that there's some informed minds playing in this sandbox. Maybe not "experts", but people with deep curiosity, open souls and minds, and a willingness to soak it all in. That's the level to which I'm referring, because as with most musics, that's the level where the music gets made and its, for lack of a more precise term at this moment, "soul" gets defined. I now see that you're talking more about the level of "average fan", and for all I know, you may well be right. Since this music seems to be created for "consumption" by an audience who will be hearing it in clubs for a wide variety of "social" reasons, your comments may well be spot-on. But that's not the level at which I've been exploring this music, and besides, I think that's what you run up against with consumers of music of almost any variety once you get too far outside the ring of musicians, producers, & "deep fans". But I can see how this music, which is almost always heard live in recorded/mixed form, might be even more prone to that. Still, I see your point, and will not disagree. But - I still think that a music that is "jazz based" in mind (and partial spirit) and "dance underground"-centric in body (and partial spirit) could be used to touch the whole spirits of a lot of people that are currently being less than fully-served by either music as it is being made today. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy Berger Posted June 3, 2007 Report Share Posted June 3, 2007 (edited) fine Guy, lemme qualify that: except for ---> lame white boy rock-derived "indie" fans" OR ---> instatiable record collectors with brand loyalty & limited experience in diverse genres* everyone else thinks Vandermark is insipid dogshit. (however "well-intentioned") I'm guessing this is probably not true. But even if it is, people like what they like. edit - A suggestion: before we drag this thread completely off-topic, maybe we should move the Vandermark discussion to the Vandermark thread... Guy Edited June 3, 2007 by Guy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clifford_thornton Posted June 3, 2007 Report Share Posted June 3, 2007 Bowing out on the Vandermark thing for a moment (some good, a sizeable snoozy chunk), it's interesting to me that I can't think of any black jazz players in Austin currently. I don't go to a TON of gigs, but I have noticed it... granted, my transplant here was recently and for educational purposes, but... My folks live in Houston now and the few jazz concerts I've been to there that were LOCAL were also all white folk on the stand. Not that I really care much or at all, but I wonder if this is a common thing in Texas especially. Some who have lived here longer than I could probably wax lyrically on this thought. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Nessa Posted June 3, 2007 Report Share Posted June 3, 2007 Boy is this stuff out of control. or what?!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clifford_thornton Posted June 3, 2007 Report Share Posted June 3, 2007 That was exactly the lyrical waxing I was hoping for! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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