king ubu Posted September 26, 2003 Report Share Posted September 26, 2003 By the way, Garth, can you clear my question (above in this thread) on the personnel of the Jazz Epistles disc? Would be very glad if you could! ubu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazz1 Posted September 26, 2003 Author Report Share Posted September 26, 2003 I had better get off the nostalgia wagon for the rest of the day ... this can be emotionally draining... Got to Cape Town in the late sixties, I was wondering if "The Art center" on the Green Point common already existed?? Today it is occupied by McDonald, this is progress for you. Anyway they was some great jam sessions on Sundays evenings, with mostly "white musicians" every now and then "a non white" joined them. Maybe some of these guys where playing when you where there. Cecil Ricca, a great drummer, another guy called Merton Barrows (not sure of the spelling) on vibes, and a great jazz guitarist from Jo-burg Johny Fourie came down to jam with the guys, in jazz terms it was "the good old days" Today the jazz scene is pretty poor, Hugh Masekela is playing commercial jazz, lost his chops to. Wynston Mankuku is getting on. Luckily Abdullah Ibrahim still as good as ever maybe in a more serene way. Most of the jazz musicians that went in exile are back, some into politics which is unfortunate as they where better musicians than they are politicians. The strange phenomena is that " real jazz" is mostly supported by white audience. attendance to jazz gigs and concerts is 95% white, just so sad. and btw Bothners is still operating and by far the biggest instruments suppliers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shrdlu Posted September 26, 2003 Report Share Posted September 26, 2003 I really enjoyed these reminiscences, Garth and Jazz1, having lived in Jo'burg from 1972 through 1976. By the way, I bought my current Selmer Mk VI tenor there, and I think it was from Bothners. I only got to Cape Town once (it is about 1000 miles from Jo'burg!), but don't recall any jazz players there, or from there. In the 70s, the main jazz venue was Johannesburg, no question. There was a little bit in Pretoria, which was surprising as the vibe there was like 30s Germany. I played for years alongside a Pretoria trumpeter called Charlie Sayers, who was excellent and doubled on trombone. I also played with a Pretoria pianist called Robert Payne, who was also very good. But we mainly played in Jo'burg, at such places as "The Red Lantern" (Mynpacht Hotel) and the Alba hotel in Braamfontein (a Jo'burg suburb near downtown). Robert was the first guy I knew who had a Fender-Rhodes. He was once approached by the U.S. Information Service in Pretoria to do a gig in the Embassy, and he used me for that. Later, he went to London, England. That guitarist Johnny Fourie is sensational, and easily as good as John McLaughlin. As I recall, he played in a very similar way. If Johnny had made it to the U.S., I'm sure he would have become famous. A bassist with whom I played a lot was Art Kelly. His family once owned a big music store in Johannesburg, and Art had a Steinway baby grand at his house, so that's where all the "blows" were held. He had an antique flat-back bass (a wonderful instrument, which we all called the Mother) as well as a blond Kay. One of the guys who used to hang with us used to play bass and piano. He was called Kim. Kim amazed me, as he started writing to and phoning Bill Evans in New York, and he got replies. When Kim went to New York, Bill actually came over to the place where Kim was staying and took him out shopping for a day. Then, they went back to Bill's for dinner and Bill played some solos for him! Talk about Hutzpah! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garthsj Posted September 27, 2003 Report Share Posted September 27, 2003 (edited) Maybe some of these guys where playing when you where there. Cecil Ricca, a great drummer, another guy called Merton Barrows (not sure of the spelling) on vibes, and a great jazz guitarist from Jo-burg Johny Fourie came down to jam with the guys, in jazz terms it was "the good old days" Edited December 7, 2004 by garthsj Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazz1 Posted September 27, 2003 Author Report Share Posted September 27, 2003 So.. this is the end of my Cape Town "jazz" story ... thanks for letting me bare my soul .. . We where all shocked by Cecil Ricca death, Maurice Goldberg visits and plays in Cape Town regularly. Maybe you even knew Maurice Gavronsky (drums) he still plays. Anyway if one day you come and visit maybe we could meet? Thanks for sharing Serge Cape Town Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shrdlu Posted September 27, 2003 Report Share Posted September 27, 2003 I remember Midge Pike visiting Jo'burg when I was there. My musical buddies knew him. Also, the name Maurice Gavronsky rings a bell. A drummer with whom I frequently played, Joe Latronico, spoke of him. Joe was a very close buddy, and a fine drummer, who could emulate Elvin very well, which suited me as I was into Trane a lot. Joe had to play dreadful gigs with a Greek band in order to make a living. Most of the corner stores were run by Greeks, and they liked to party late at night. They would dance to those difficult time signatures like 18/4 and toss plates onto the floor! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
king ubu Posted September 30, 2003 Report Share Posted September 30, 2003 Well, Garth & jazz1, thanks a lot for sharing these memories! I am just not long enough around here to have come through these sort of things... I am listening to the Jazz Epistles disc (waiting for Jazz in Africa Vol.2 to arrive), and the "Blues for a Hip King" CD from Dollar Brand right now. Love them both. On the later one, there's a version of Blue Monk with Kippie. Great! The other tracks do not feature him. Regarding the Jazz Epistles, here goes my question on the line up again: Is the following correct? Hugh Masekela t Jonas Gwangwa tb Kippie Moeketsi as Dollar Brand p Johnny Gertze b Makaya Ntshoko d And does anyone know the date/year of recording? thanks, ubu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazz1 Posted September 30, 2003 Author Report Share Posted September 30, 2003 Regarding the Jazz Epistles, here goes my question on the line up again: Is the following correct? Hugh Masekela t Jonas Gwangwa tb Kippie Moeketsi as Dollar Brand p Johnny Gertze b Makaya Ntshoko d And does anyone know the date/year of recording? thanks, ubu Glad that you are enjoying the "Jazz epistles" cd. The line up you have is correct, as far as the date, according to a friend of mine it is September 1957, but I will have to comfirm that. Abdullah Ibrahim wife, (Sathima Bea Benjamin) will be back in Cape Town soon, she normally spends the summer down here, she is a good friend of mine and I will ask her, she surely should know. Actually it should be in her Biography, of which I must still get a copy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
king ubu Posted September 30, 2003 Report Share Posted September 30, 2003 I do enjoy it very much! And "Delilah" is an opening of the sort you want to listen and listen again, and never actually make it to the end of the album. There are some good moments from everyone included, yet generally, these musicians seem to be still quite deep in their formative years (Kippie maybe being the exeption - his take on "Body & Soul" might be an indication). This seemed to be the feelings of Dollar Brand who stayed behind woodshedding when all the others left for London with the "King Kong" play (I find Ibrahim's playing on these tracks to be very far away from his "signature style" he was to develop soon after that). Masekela, Gwangwa & Kippie all became part of that tory of success. (It's LP GALP 1040 I have, never heard of this label). That LP is has no date, but it must have been after 1957 for sure, as the story of "the real King Kong" (as it is printed on the backcover of the LP), ended in February 1957. A date of September 1957 would make sense, September 1958 would be possible, too. The CD liners state the month of recording being September, and also states that after spring 1959, the Epistles were "a legend without a sound". ubu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
king ubu Posted October 2, 2003 Report Share Posted October 2, 2003 I just received Jazz In Africa Volume Two (in its Kaz incarnation from 1992). It's a very nice CD, containing a Kippie Moeketsi album called "Tshona", also featuring Basil Coetze, and Pat Matshikiza on piano. The most famous track, of course is the title-track, which also features Dennis Phillips on alto. This album has a playing time of only little more than half an hour. The CD then has a 17 minutes long track featuring Barney Rachabane, Basil Coetzee and Duke Makasi, as well as a 23 minute Dollar Brand track with Robbie Jansen, Coetzee and Arthur Jacobs. Very good music, indeed! I got the CD from jazzhouserecords.co.uk. They still list it, so it's yours for 5£ + shipping (Paypal), and very fast service, indeed! ubu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Magnificent Goldberg Posted May 2, 2006 Report Share Posted May 2, 2006 Glad you upped this Red. John Fourie, who was mentioned in a few posts on page 2, apparently did go to the US. If it's the same musician, he played "fuzz guitar" on Charles Earland's first "Intensity" session (16 Feb 1972). I don't have any other recordings with him on them, (AFAIK ). The Kaz albums are great. MG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shrdlu Posted March 5, 2007 Report Share Posted March 5, 2007 Yeah, Red! I'm glad you opened this up again! Thanks, Dude! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shrdlu Posted December 22, 2021 Report Share Posted December 22, 2021 (edited) The excellent English pianist with whom I played in Jo'burg for years, Stan Jones, can be heard in some Youtube videos shot at a club called Rumours that was owned by bassist Art Kelly, who plays in the videos. Search for Rumours in Jo'burg and you will find them. Art was always on bass with Stan. He had a Steinway baby grand at his house and so our private blows were always there. The drummer was Billy Jones. I never met the trumpeter or drummer in the videos. Johnny Fourie is on guitar. John McLaughlin was once asked what it was like to be the world's best jazz guitarist, and he said "I don't know. You'll have to ask Johnny Fourie.". Edited December 22, 2021 by Shrdlu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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