Coltrane on a 1949 LA blues date?

[Dan Gould]

I picked up a pretty good compilation CD called Los Angeles Rhythm & Blues 1944-54 (Acrobat) and much to my surprise, on a track by vocalist/pianist Billy Valentine, "Beer Drinking Baby" John Coltrane is listed on tenor (along with Ray Brown on bass). I checked the jazz discography project site and they don't list this session, though it certainly sounds like it could be Coltrane. Guess I should send an email, although the insert doesn't give session info in terms of recording label.

What's definitely neat is that to my knowledge this has to be the earliest decent sounding recording of Trane, its not like he's a rumor in the sax section, that's him taking the sax solo.

Or does someone know otherwise that this some other John Coltrane?

Edited May 12, 2007 by Dan Gould

[Steve Gray]

This was recorded for Mercury.

It was included on the 8 CD Mercury 'Blues & Rhythym Story' set.

The notes state that it is JC.

It certainly sounds as if it could be but there does not seem to be any actual proof.

Edited May 12, 2007 by Steve Gray

[Dan Gould]

  Steve Gray said:

This was recorded for Mercury.

It was included on the 8 CD Mercury 'Blues & Rhythym Story' set.

The notes state that it is JC.

It certainly sounds as if it could be but there does not seem to be any actual proof.

thanks for the info. What exactly do you mean by "proof"? I presume they put his name on it because there's some documentation. I definitely agree that it sounds plausibly like Coltrane given his age and the genre.

[chewy-chew-chew-bean-benitez]

chewy's view: I wouldn't trust those liner notes as far as you can throw 'em-- if Coltrane was out west in '49 there would be numerous other accounts of his time spent there, etc-- and theres not.

[Steve Gray]

  Quote

What exactly do you mean by "proof"? I presume they put his name on it because there's some documentation.

Sorry, I don't have any deep knowledge here.

All I meant was that the only reference to this that I am aware of is the personnel listing in the box stating that it is JC. I have never seen any other reference to this session elsewhere.

[Niko]

from Peter Losin's site:

http://www.plosin.com/milesAhead/Tapes.aspx?s=19491107

  Quote

November 7, 1949 (15 items; TT = 20:42)

Unknown studio, Los Angeles

Source/Quality: SB (B-)

Billy Valentine (p, voc); John Coltrane (ts); Ray Brown (b); Gordon "Specs" Powell (d)

1 Studio chatter 0:10

2 Ain't Gonna Cry No More (B. Valentine) (take 2) 2:37

3 Studio chatter 0:07

4 Ain't Gonna Cry No More (B. Valentine) (take 3) 2:35

5 I Want You to Love Me (B. Valentine) (take 1 (fs)) 0:20

6 I Want You to Love Me (B. Valentine) (take 1) 3:06

7 Studio chatter 0:04

8 I Want You to Love Me (B. Valentine) (take 2 (fs)) 0:10

9 I Want You to Love Me (B. Valentine) (take 2) 2:59

10 Studio chatter 0:04

11 I Want You to Love Me (B. Valentine) (take 3) 3:01

12 Studio chatter 0:04

13 Beer Drinking Baby (B. Valentine) (take 1) 2:40

14 Studio chatter 0:05

15 Beer Drinking Baby (B. Valentine) (take 2) 2:40

i don't care too much for studio chatter usually, but in such a case it might actually help to nail down whether it really was Coltrane??? (depending on who chatters what)

[paul secor]

Blues Records 1943 - 1970 (Leadbitter/Fancourt/Pelletier) gives the same date - Nov. 7, 1949 - but lists the session as being held in New York City. It also places a ? after John Coltrane's name.

I don't know which source is correct - just posting what I found.

[Dan Gould]

Maybe I could edit the tune down to Trane's tenor solo and Jim could post a link to the MP3, and everyone can chime in their opinion.

[Dan Gould]

  Niko said:

from Peter Losin's site:

http://www.plosin.com/milesAhead/Tapes.aspx?s=19491107

  Quote

November 7, 1949 (15 items; TT = 20:42)

Unknown studio, Los Angeles

Source/Quality: SB (B-)

Billy Valentine (p, voc); John Coltrane (ts); Ray Brown (b); Gordon "Specs" Powell (d)

1 Studio chatter 0:10

2 Ain't Gonna Cry No More (B. Valentine) (take 2) 2:37

3 Studio chatter 0:07

4 Ain't Gonna Cry No More (B. Valentine) (take 3) 2:35

5 I Want You to Love Me (B. Valentine) (take 1 (fs)) 0:20

6 I Want You to Love Me (B. Valentine) (take 1) 3:06

7 Studio chatter 0:04

8 I Want You to Love Me (B. Valentine) (take 2 (fs)) 0:10

9 I Want You to Love Me (B. Valentine) (take 2) 2:59

10 Studio chatter 0:04

11 I Want You to Love Me (B. Valentine) (take 3) 3:01

12 Studio chatter 0:04

13 Beer Drinking Baby (B. Valentine) (take 1) 2:40

14 Studio chatter 0:05

15 Beer Drinking Baby (B. Valentine) (take 2) 2:40

i don't care too much for studio chatter usually, but in such a case it might actually help to nail down whether it really was Coltrane??? (depending on who chatters what)

Well, especially if its the leader who says "quit messing around, Trane!"

[bertrand]

Lewis Porter has this as well, and does not seem to question whether it's Coltrane or not. FWIW, he says that Phil Schaap claims it's from 1950.

Of course, we now know that Porter's book is no longer the 'definitive' book on 'Trane, no matter what the critics might have claimed back then

As I like to say, it's the definitive bio on so-and-so, until the next definitive bio comes along.

Bertrand.

[Steve Gray]

According to the notes in the Mercury box, the tenor player only plays on 'Beer Drinking Baby'

Billy Valentine I believe was a West Coaster, he replaced Charles Brown in Johnny Moore's 3 Blazers which I guess lends credence to it being a West Coast session.

[Swinging Swede]

  Dan Gould said:

What's definitely neat is that to my knowledge this has to be the earliest decent sounding recording of Trane, its not like he's a rumor in the sax section, that's him taking the sax solo.

The 1946 Hawaii recordings are pretty decent-sounding, to my ears anyway, and we get a lot of Coltrane solos on them!

[Dan Gould]

  Swinging Swede said:

  Dan Gould said:

What's definitely neat is that to my knowledge this has to be the earliest decent sounding recording of Trane, its not like he's a rumor in the sax section, that's him taking the sax solo.

The 1946 Hawaii recordings are pretty decent-sounding, to my ears anyway, and we get a lot of Coltrane solos on them!

Wasn't aware of the status of those recordings.

[Swinging Swede]

The 1946 session had been floating around among collectors, but last year came out on an RLR CD called First Giant Steps. That CD also has a live session with Johnny Hodges from 1954, on which Coltrane actually solos, unlike on the studio recordings with Hodges.

[chewy-chew-chew-bean-benitez]

you guys are still on this? let me reitterate again THERE IS NO WAY THIS IS JOHN COLTRANE. if it is so that john coltrane's EARLIEST KNOWN RECORDED MUSIC is from the west coast, then it can and should be argued that Coltrane's music is all one big giant extension of WEST COAST JAZZ and really coltrane brought west coast jazz back east with him to create his jazz sound on the east coast, but since his west coast music came out before his east coast music, the east coast music is an extension of his west coast music, thus west coast jazz is better

[chewy-chew-chew-bean-benitez]

i hope you guys are right: then all of coltranes numeous jazz innovations are all one big offshoot/extension of West Coast Jazz. i hope you guys are right

[Dan Gould]

You're an idiot.

Even if your lame-brained thesis had any logic, what does it change? Chewy gets to refer to all of his Coltrane CDs as part of his vast West Coast Jazz holdings?

[Niko]

  chewy said:

i hope you guys are right: then all of coltranes numeous jazz innovations are all one big offshoot/extension of West Coast Jazz. i hope you guys are right

would you consider hawaiian jazz as west coast?

[Swinging Swede]

West Coast Jazz ... East Coast Jazz ... it's all just an offshoot/extension of Hawaiian Jazz.

[chewy-chew-chew-bean-benitez]

keep 'em comming Dan- a few board members and I have been collaborating by PM-ing for a while lately to help compile a thread called "Dan Gould All-Star Jams" where we will compile a quote list of your top 20 freakouts, from a wide range of categories ranging from baseball, politics, and of course, jazz. but to top it all off we need quotes from "the letter", which the search function has not helped out with yet.

since you have not freaked out on me the last few threads i will refrain from publishing at this time but I AIN'T NO IDIOT when it comes to WEST COAST JAZZ! (and a few other select things as well)

now lets all go back to our best behavior and practice organassimo-saftey- after all, michae cuscana is watching...........

[clifford_thornton]

  Swinging Swede said:

West Coast Jazz ... East Coast Jazz ... it's all just an offshoot/extension of Hawaiian Jazz.

Is European jazz West Coast or East Coast?

[RDK]

And where the hell would Sun Ra fit in?

[Chuck Nessa]

  RDK said:

And where the hell would Sun Ra fit in?

Ra fits around, not in.

[erhodes]

There's little doubt that it's Trane. Peter Losin's listing reflects what has been in variou discographies since Porter referenced it in the chronology in his Trane bio. The only real question is the date. The chronology in the new disco will reflect that Trane toured California with Dizzy's small group in the Fall of 1950. Some of the material that Chris DeVito published on the Coltrane listserv several years back shows dates in San Francisco and Los Angeles from late September through the end of October. Speculation is that Trane did the Billy Valentine dates during that time. I believe Schaap's comments on this were made during the big WKCR Trane marathon a couple of years back.

[chewy-chew-chew-bean-benitez]

then its settled