Barry Bonds quest for HR record

[Dan Gould]

Don't confuse Goodspeak with facts, and don't forget he is the only Bonds apologist on the board.

Right.

Just like we won't confuse you with the facts about Clinton and your republican get-back for Nixon.

Well argued, Dan.

It wasn't an argument it was an observation, dumb ass.

Consult 70% of the rest of the thread for arguments that you have never come close to refuting in any way, shape or form.

I see.

Safety in numbers then, eh?

Then tell us why Bush is presdent when the numbers of votes went against him.

It was an argument against my position, Dan.

Observation my rosey red....

Dumb ass.

WTF????

Poor, sad, pathetic Goody. I hope you plan to stick around when Bonds is indicted and goes to trial. Then I want to hear you rebut the sworn testimony that puts him in prison.

let's see - he didn't use steroids, and anyway, "the media" planted that doping calendar.

He didn't cheat on his taxes, and anyway that bitch is just a nasty tramp trying to get back at him.

Steroids have no impact on home run hitting, even if home runs skyrocketed during the "steroid era", even if known steroid users like Juan Gonzales and Jose Canseco combined for 900 homers between the two of them.

Keep dancing, Goody, keep dancing. You remind me of that episode of Buffy where the demon makes people sing and dance and when they stop, they burst into flames. You're dancing for your life, Goody only soon the music is going to stop and the piper will be paid.

[Tim McG]

Don't confuse Goodspeak with facts, and don't forget he is the only Bonds apologist on the board.

Right.

Just like we won't confuse you with the facts about Clinton and your republican get-back for Nixon.

Well argued, Dan.

It wasn't an argument it was an observation, dumb ass.

Consult 70% of the rest of the thread for arguments that you have never come close to refuting in any way, shape or form.

I see.

Safety in numbers then, eh?

Then tell us why Bush is presdent when the numbers of votes went against him.

It was an argument against my position, Dan.

Observation my rosey red....

Dumb ass.

WTF????

Poor, sad, pathetic Goody. I hope you plan to stick around when Bonds is indicted and goes to trial. Then I want to hear you rebut the sworn testimony that puts him in prison.

let's see - he didn't use steroids, and anyway, "the media" planted that doping calendar.

He didn't cheat on his taxes, and anyway that bitch is just a nasty tramp trying to get back at him.

Steroids have no impact on home run hitting, even if home runs skyrocketed during the "steroid era", even if known steroid users like Juan Gonzales and Jose Canseco combined for 900 homers between the two of them.

Keep dancing, Goody, keep dancing. You remind me of that episode of Buffy where the demon makes people sing and dance and when they stop, they burst into flames. You're dancing for your life, Goody only soon the music is going to stop and the piper will be paid.

Oh well...since you put it that way, you win.

I'm wrong.

Move on.

Let's have a party in your honor.

Edited July 31, 2007 by GoodSpeak

[Jazzmoose]

Uh-huh.

And when he is exonerated, you guys will be running for cover.

Anything is possible. After all, OJ is a free man.

Good point!

Now, if he can get a jury of his peers, meaning Jose, Mark, Rafael.....

[Lyin' Wolf]

GO A-ROD, GO A-ROD, GO Edited August 5, 2007 by Lyin' Wolf

[Tim McG]

And maybe in a Giants uniform next season...that would be just too cool!

[Soulstation1]

a dumb ass question asked last night

barry, who was president when you hit your first homerun?

do some research buddy..........

[catesta]

Could Barry answer the question?

[Soulstation1]

Nope

[Soulstation1]

IMO

Barry thought the clear was sunscreen for his head

[Dan Gould]

That's why he put it under his tongue.

[JSngry]

Not unlike windowpane, which is also for the head.

[JSngry]

I'm usually quiet on these baseball threads, in spite of having a deep personal love for the game dating back to the mid-1960s, as well as a residual sense of history left over from spending almost my entire pre-adolescence obsessing over the history/culture of the sport. It truly is my "personal sport", even if I let it go for years at a time, just because. Whenever I come back to it, it's always there. The faces change, but the stories don't. In that sense, indeed - baseball is life.

Now, does anybody here care what I think about Barry Bonds? I doubt it, & I hope not, but here goes...

To think that he didn't use steroids at all requires a suspension of disbelief the level of which even the staunchest Bush apologist would have a difficult (but not impossible) time mustering.

To think that he didn't knowingly use steroids with the intent of performance enhancement requires a leap into a circularity of logic which can only leave one unfunctionally dizzy, nauseous, or both. Which is not to say that there are those who nevertheless relish the task. You can find somebody to do damn near anything, doncha' know...

I have no choice but to "accept" Barry Bonds' record. A record is nothing but a number, and the numbers are what they are. 755=755, period. And 756 will be >755, just as 715 was >714. And the fact that Bonds, unless he's got a really deep, swell side that nobody sees is for all intents and purposes a bit (or more) of a world class asshole doesn't really bother me all that much. A lot of people in his position are, they just cover it up better than he does.

So I accept the record. But I do not, will not, and cannot accept Bonds as "Home Run Champion". Like it or not, the word "champion" carries with it more than a few extra-literal trappings, the type of things that make you "feel good". Now that may be mushy sentamentality, but so be it. And nothing about Barry Bonds record makes me feel good. I'm left with the nasty sense of a man who seems to me to have bullied his way into the record, gangstered it, raped it and dared anybody to file charges.

Sentimental? Sure it is. But I watched raptly and cheered loudly when Aaron hit #715. I certainly understood all the sentimentality (to say nothing of the cultural insecurity) behind the "Ruth will always be king" hype, but hey Hank Aaron...quiet dignity, true accomplishment, and yeah, the game had changed from when Ruth played it and yeahyeahyeah blahblahblah but STILL...

Steroids, that's w whole 'nother "change". I was talking on a break to the guitarist in the band I was gigging with last night about this, a guy from Baltimore who played high-level high school & college ball until he banged up his shoulder, and he said, "Jim, you know you still gotta hit the ball. Steriods ain't gonna make you put the bat on the ball." To which I countered, "Yeah, but are you gonna tell me that steroids won't make a lot of long flies - doubles, triples, or even outs - into home runs?" To which he replied, "Hell no I'm not gonna tell you that. That's why cats take 'em".

And there you have it. It's not the same record, just as Maris' 61 was not equal to Ruth's 60 due to the extra games in the schedule. Now, Maris' record was certainly legit, but it was different. Similarly, the records of first McGuire, and now Bonds, are certainly legit (again, 756 > 755, period), but they are definitely different. With good reason are the records of the Dead Ball era looked at differently. So too should the records of the Juiced Athlete. We're talking a fundamental paradigm shift - not a just question of degree - as to the balance of potential factors that affect each possible outcome. Question of legality aside, if we're going to be honest about this whole thing, let's just call it what it is, remove the "stigma" and get on with it.

Getting on with it comes down to this - in our heart of hearts, do we feel that this guy is really a "champion"? I have to say - no, he isn't. He was a damn fine hitter who juiced himself into the record book & stayed too long at the dance just to do it. The latter is hardly a new phenomenon, and the former is just a fact of life in these modern sports times. But the combination, that's just...too much for me. Mileages may vary, especially in the Bay Area, but oh well.

Point of comparison - Rickey Henderson. By all accounts, a miserable human being, but yes, a great base stealer. Stayed too long at the party just to get the record? Yeah, probably so. But in spite of that, when he broke Cobb's record, I cheered, because dammit, he did it legit (or certainly seems to have), worked the system(s) to his natural advantage and just flat out earned that record, no questions asked about that part of it. And that's how it should be.

But Bonds, McGuire, all those guys, they played a fundamentally different game, and damned if I'm going to look at their accomplishments as part of the continuum. They're not. They're different, and they represent a different type of accomplishment. To each their own as to how "real" any of it is or isn't (anybody wanting to make the propellor vs jet argument has the floor, as does anybody who wants to make the legal/fair vs illegal/unfair advantage thing. Discuss amongst yourselves...), but also to each their own as to how much, if any, "affection" is felt towards this new breed.

You can gangster a record, but you can't force love.

Edited August 5, 2007 by JSngry

[Tim McG]

Hm.

Suit yourself....but you still have to have proof before any conviction or asterisk can be applied.

The media lynch mobs are nothing less than a pack of yellow journalists hell-bent for get back on Bonds' allegedly bad attitude towards them. Sorry to see you have bought into their half-truths and shoddy journalism, too. But, oh well.

I do agree with one thing...you can't force love. And I have nothing but open disdain for the media jackals who have perpetrated this charade. The Sports page and even the evening news have become shameful pretend news outlets for their own personal bias against this great ballplayer.

If Bonds was white, the papers would be filled with splashy headlines lauding his success.

As to the record: I hope they choke on it.

[JSngry]

If Bonds was white, the papers would be filled with splashy headlines lauding his success.

Maybe yes, maybe not. Probably more than they are now, but if Bonds was white and the type of asshole he is, who knows? Sure "the media" tends to give white athletes more slack in this area, but how much more when the level of assholery and level of record profile is this high? Point of comparison, anybody? McGuire? Played the media game quite well. Bonds chooses not to play it? Ok, his perogative, take the hit and move on, which is what he's doing. But no "apologies", please.

None of this changes anything for me, though. Steroids - and for that matter Astroturf - and the removal of the full-dirt infield that for a while came with it - - those are things that simply change the equation in a way that cannot be dismissed. So when records are broken as a result (and I know, you gotta have "proof", but geezus, how just how far into BushCo Apologist Level Of Denial Territory are you willing to go for this cat?), for me it comes down to, do I at some gut level respect this cat to the point where I can look at it like, "it's ok"? And with Bonds, I just can't. Assholery alone, yes I could. Steroids alone, yes, I could. But both? Nope, sorry. Can't go there.

I will agree though - Bonds was once a great ballplayer. No question about that. But...

Edited August 5, 2007 by JSngry

[catesta]

If Bonds was white, the papers would be filled with splashy headlines lauding his success.

That's an argument the mentally weak like to make and I don't buy it.

There is plenty of hype surrounding Bonds. Last night a special "Bonds ties record" message came across my screen while watching 48 hours.

If Bonds or his fans feel there is not enough celebration, there is no one else to blame other than Bonds himself. He is the one that put himself in the position he is in.

You Bonds fans are really turning out to be a bunch of whiners.

Sorry the country is ready to chisel the likeness of his giant fucking head into Mt. Rushmore to make you happy.

Maybe if you're team actually won baseball games you wouldn't be so caught up in this and have more to get excited about.

Long live the king: Henry Louis Aaron

By Terence Moore | Saturday, August 4, 2007, 11:07 PM

The Atlanta Journal-Constitution

Terence Moore The world hasn’t stopped spinning, but it sure feels like it. After 33 years as the sole owner of 755 home runs, Hank Aaron, the people’s choice, is sharing the most glorious number in sports with Barry Bonds, few of the people’s choice.

Let’s pause for a moment of prayer. Maybe when we open our eyes, this will all go away. Maybe we’ll discover this was only a mirage. Maybe this was created by the baseball demons. Maybe they want us to believe Bonds really wasn’t juiced during the past decade or so while he sprinted to within another blast of becoming the all-time home run king.

To the chagrin of those who love truth, justice and royalty not being attained by athletes through artificially inflated means, Bonds will wear the crown by himself when he slams No. 756.

Well, officially.

Unofficially, the king isn’t dead. Long live the king, and his name is Henry Louis Aaron, the classy icon who used only adrenaline to slay Babe Ruth’s previously magical “714” in 1974 at old Atlanta-Fulton County Stadium. Aaron kept ignoring the hate mail and the death threats that were as prevalent during his Ruth chase as the fastballs and the change-ups. His walk with dignity - no matter what - gained even the bigots’ respect. Then Aaron spent his final two seasons ripping enough home runs to make “755” baseball’s new magical number, supposedly for the ages.

So you know what that means? We must be in the final days, because Bonds is threatening to reach the upper 700s in homers and beyond. He is 43, with a slew of aches and pains, but he says retirement isn’t in his immediate vocabulary. He could leave the San Francisco Giants for the American League, where he could become a designated hitter. A relatively healthy Bonds as a DH could reach the lower 800s, but sports psychologist Harry Edwards had it exactly right when he mentioned in May that “755” and its original owner always will remain the standard bearers.

All Bonds will do is become the record-holder. Nothing more, not since he is closer to chilly and indifferent than warm and cuddly. Worse, he is forever tainted in the minds of many as the poster child for baseball’s steroids era.

Aaron prefers not to discuss Bonds’ ongoing milestones beyond a prepared statement, and the standard bearer didn’t return messages Saturday night. Still, Aaron told me several months ago that, even though he isn’t “bosom buddies” with Bonds, he isn’t convinced baseball’s gigantic cloud of suspicion involving steroids should hang over the gigantic head of Bonds. If you believe leaked grand jury testimony from the BALCO investigation, it’s a gigantic head of Bonds that has kept expanding over the years from performance-enhancing drugs - especially since he spent his early years in Pittsburgh as a sleek line-drive hitter with normal dimensions.

“Listen, I’d be wrong as heck to sit back here and point a finger and say whether or not my record or anybody else’s would be tainted by somebody,” Aaron told me back then. “It’s kind of up to Barry to do his own thing, and he hasn’t admitted to anything. If he did something wrong, then he’s the one who is going to have to pay for it. So, really, to be honest, I’m out of it.”

Actually, Aaron is still in it, but in a wonderful way. Whenever those among the public hear Bonds’ name, either positively or negatively, they usually hear Aaron’s name soon afterward. Not only that, when Aaron’s name does surface during conversations involving Bonds, Aaron’s name often is surrounded by implied hugs and kisses. In fact, Bonds once told me with a smile at his locker at San Francisco’s AT&T Park, “I’m helping to keep Hank’s name out there.”

That’s nice of Bonds, but Aaron really doesn’t need his help. For 23 Hall of Fame seasons without the hint of scandal, the eternal king of home-run kings helped himself, thank you.

Edited August 5, 2007 by catesta

[Dan Gould]

The media lynch mobs are nothing less than a pack of yellow journalists hell-bent for get back on Bonds' allegedly bad attitude towards them. Sorry to see you have bought into their half-truths and shoddy journalism, too. But, oh well.

Do you understand what this POS is saying to you, Jim?

You haven't come to the conclusion that

A. Bonds juiced

B. He did it to chase a record

C. the juice made the difference in his quest

by using your God-given power to consider the evidence, evaluate it and reach conclusions you believe are supported by facts.

NO. You aren't smart enough to recognize "half truths and shoddy journalism'.

What a pathetic fool you are, Goodspeak. With that towering intellect of yours its amazing that you can hold a job, breathe through your nose, walk and chew gum simultaneously ...

[connoisseur series500]

What a pathetic fool you are, Goodspeak. With that towering intellect of yours its amazing that you can hold a job, breathe through your nose, walk and chew gum simultaneously ...

Is there any need for these kinds of comments, Dan? I mean it's not pro-wrestling or anything. You can make your point (and even have truth on your side, as I believe you do,) but there's no need for such slurs. I don't think it enhances your argument in the slightest. And I doubt you'll be able to win Goodspeak over to some of your points by throwing such gratuitous shots.

[Dan Gould]

What a pathetic fool you are, Goodspeak. With that towering intellect of yours its amazing that you can hold a job, breathe through your nose, walk and chew gum simultaneously ...

Is there any need for these kinds of comments, Dan? I mean it's not pro-wrestling or anything. You can make your point (and even have truth on your side, as I believe you do,) but there's no need for such slurs. I don't think it enhances your argument in the slightest. And I doubt you'll be able to win Goodspeak over to some of your points by throwing such gratuitous shots.

I gave up a long time ago on ever winning him over.

So long as he continues to assert the indefensible, I will tell him how stupid he is. Then, when Bonds is locked up, I will remind him again how stupid he was.

[JSngry]

The media lynch mobs are nothing less than a pack of yellow journalists hell-bent for get back on Bonds' allegedly bad attitude towards them. Sorry to see you have bought into their half-truths and shoddy journalism, too. But, oh well.

Do you understand what this POS is saying to you, Jim?

You haven't come to the conclusion that

A. Bonds juiced

B. He did it to chase a record

C. the juice made the difference in his quest

by using your God-given power to consider the evidence, evaluate it and reach conclusions you believe are supported by facts.

NO. You aren't smart enough to recognize "half truths and shoddy journalism'.

No, I think he knows full well what the truth about Bonds is, but for whatever reason feels that there's a greater truth - such as the pack mentality of journalists and/or the racial tendencies therein - that overrides it. And maybe for him it does.

Far be it from me to minimize those very real issues, but I just don't think that ignoring the obvious does service to any attempt to deal with them. I'm sympathetic to the claims, and don't deny that at least some of that might be at play here, but damn, a guilty guy harrassed is still a guilty guy. Argue the harrassment, but not the guilt (and again - how blind, literally and figuratively - do you have to be to not see it?). I just don't see where building a case for a legitimate issue on illegitmate grounds is going to do anybody any good. But apparently Mr. GS does. Again, that is his perogative, just as it is mine to fundamentally disagree with him. We all choose our battles, as well as how to fight them.

[Dan Gould]

The media lynch mobs are nothing less than a pack of yellow journalists hell-bent for get back on Bonds' allegedly bad attitude towards them. Sorry to see you have bought into their half-truths and shoddy journalism, too. But, oh well.

Do you understand what this POS is saying to you, Jim?

You haven't come to the conclusion that

A. Bonds juiced

B. He did it to chase a record

C. the juice made the difference in his quest

by using your God-given power to consider the evidence, evaluate it and reach conclusions you believe are supported by facts.

NO. You aren't smart enough to recognize "half truths and shoddy journalism'.

No, I think he knows full well what the truth about Bonds is, but for whatever reason feels that there's a greater truth - such as the pack mentality of journalists and/or the racial tendencies therein - that overrides it. And maybe for him it does.

Far be it from me to minimize those very real issues, but I just don't think that ignoring the obvious does service to any attempt to deal with them. I'm sympathetic to the claims, and don't deny that at least some of that might be at play here, but damn, a guilty guy harrassed is still a guilty guy. Argue the harrassment, but not the guilt (and again - how blind, literally and figuratively - do you have to be to not see it?). I just don't see where building a case for a legitimate issue on illegitmate grounds is going to do anybody any good. But apparently Mr. GS does. Again, that is his perogative, just as it is mine to fundamentally disagree with him. We all choose our battles, as well as how to fight them.

OK Jim, but understand that he denies guilt on all levels:

Bonds didn't use steroids. There's no proof but lies, damned lies, and purloined Grand Jury testimony.

Furthermore, steroids cannot help you hit home runs.

He denies it all. He is truly that blind, literally and figuratively.

[Jazzmoose]

What a pathetic fool you are, Goodspeak. With that towering intellect of yours its amazing that you can hold a job, breathe through your nose, walk and chew gum simultaneously ...

Is there any need for these kinds of comments, Dan? I mean it's not pro-wrestling or anything. You can make your point (and even have truth on your side, as I believe you do,) but there's no need for such slurs. I don't think it enhances your argument in the slightest. And I doubt you'll be able to win Goodspeak over to some of your points by throwing such gratuitous shots.

Come on, Conn...you know by now that Dan will never grow up and learn to control his anger. It's just not going to happen.

Let me save him some time, though, so he can concentrate on Goodspeak...

Fuck you, Mark!

[Tim McG]

What a pathetic fool you are, Goodspeak. With that towering intellect of yours its amazing that you can hold a job, breathe through your nose, walk and chew gum simultaneously ...

Is there any need for these kinds of comments, Dan? I mean it's not pro-wrestling or anything. You can make your point (and even have truth on your side, as I believe you do,) but there's no need for such slurs. I don't think it enhances your argument in the slightest. And I doubt you'll be able to win Goodspeak over to some of your points by throwing such gratuitous shots.

Come on, Conn...you know by now that Dan will never grow up and learn to control his anger. It's just not going to happen.

Let me save him some time, though, so he can concentrate on Goodspeak...

Fuck you, Mark!

Thank you, CS and Jazzmoose.

Frankly, I really can't understand what all the adrenaline is about....after all's said and done it's still just a game.

Edited August 5, 2007 by GoodSpeak

[Tim McG]

BTW, Dan...watched the video on Yahoo! yet?

You know, I've watched it maybe ten times now and for the life of me it still looks like 40, 000+ San Diego fans jumping up and down, cheering and snapping photos of Barry Bonds.

Maybe that's what you call booing....?

[sheldonm]

...from a guy in the dugout with him.

NEW YORK (AP) -- Brian Johnson said it's "hard to dispute" that former teammate Barry Bonds cheated by using performance-enhancing drugs.

Johnson, appearing Sunday on ESPN's Outside the Lines, recounted what he told the staff of baseball steroids investigator George Mitchell. Johnson, a catcher with Bonds' San Francisco Giants in 1997 and 1998, also was asked by ESPN about Bonds, who tied Hank Aaron's career home run record on Saturday night.

"You can make a fair argument that he may have been cheating," Johnson said. "Based on what has been documented, it's hard to dispute that argument."

Johnson played with six major league teams from 1994-01 and said he spoke with the Mitchell investigators about his knowledge of steroids use.

"It was kind of a cloak-and-dagger society. Guys that were taking knew of each other and talked about things among themselves," Johnson said. "What I saw was that guys who were taking would never admit it, would never allow anybody to see. But it was pretty obvious to all of us that they were taking. ... Some people sold their soul to the devil and other people didn't."

Johnson hopes the investigation does more than document users.

"We need to do more than just find out who did it, crucify them, sweep them aside, and move forward," he said. "We need to do more than that."

[Tim McG]

Hard to dispute....yeah....right on.

Ironclad inuendo.

PROVE it to me.