Lou Donaldson's criticisms of RnB in jazz

[K1969]

Hi Everyone!

I was reading Bob Porter's sleave notes to Idris Muhammad's Black Rhythm Revolution, and was intrigued by this passage:

"One of the most voiciferous critics of R&B was Lou Donaldson. Idris recalls several instances of vitriolic put downs to R&B musicians by Lou. As an example of how quickly things change, shortly after this Idris began working with Lou"

What I don't get is how Donaldson, an artist who pioneered the fusion of Jazz with R&B from 1966 onwards, could once have been it's main critic? How can the man who wrote "Everything I do gonna be funky from now on" have been the nemesis of jazz's dalliances with rock and by extension R&B? What made him want to employ Muhammad, then an R&B drummer at Motown who had almost never payed any jazz professionally? Am I missing something? Can anyone shed any light on this? thanks.

Edited April 28, 2007 by K1969

[Jim Alfredson]

$$$

[Dan Gould]

Your question is certainly an interesting one, and I wish we had more to go on (like a specific quote ot two) in order to put things in perspective.

A couple of observations:

First and foremost, Lou may have simply not had any respect for R&B musicians if they were so limited musically. I think to Lou, his music traces a direct link back to Charlie Parker, if only because of the "blues cry" in his sound, and the fact that he of course still plays a lot of bop chestnuts. That is complex music and LD may have simply not respected those who can't play it. I'm reminded of a private recording I have of a Chicago Jazz festival set Lou played. Afterwards, the hosts interviewed him and talked about his inspiration for 'acid jazz', and it was obvious that Lou didn't have a lot of respect for acid jazz or want to be lumped in with it. He simply said,

"its not acid jazz - it's just regular jazz."

Meaning, blues and swing (I don't know how LD feels about Wynton, but I am pretty sure he agrees with that fundamental definition of jazz that Wynton and Crouch have been spreading).

Second thought is that it suggests that his heart wasn't in the commercial direction his music went in the late 60s, which is ironic considering how many of those tunes continue to fill his setlist to this day.

Edited April 28, 2007 by Dan Gould

[Jim Alfredson]

One of the most common misconceptions among jazz musicians (and listeners for that matter) is to gauge certain types of music by complexity and then infer one as more sophisticated than another by that gauge. It's a fool's game.

I don't think Lou was really a pioneer of merging r&b with jazz. Ray Charles was doing that back in the mid-50s, Louis Prima and Charles Brown even before him. It had been going on a long time.

Lou felt the winds of change and acted accordingly so he could continue to make a buck.

[K1969]

$$$

Maybe I'm naive but I find it hard to believe that that's the whole story - though maybe it's part of it. As Dan intimates, those musicians that made a fast buck in the fusion era usally came back to the fold in the 80s and 90s, debunking thier previous forays into commercialism. But not Lou. I can't believe that in his 80s he's still after a fast buck or doing something that that his heart isn't in.

Second thought is that it suggests that his heart wasn't in the commercial direction his music went in the late 60s, which is ironic considering how many of those tunes continue to fill his setlist to this day.

[Dan Gould]

One of the most common misconceptions among jazz musicians (and listeners for that matter) is to gauge certain types of music by complexity and then infer one as more sophisticated than another by that gauge. It's a fool's game.

Nevertheless, its certainly possible that Lou doesn't respect those who can't play bop. After all, he does like to introduce tunes like "Confirmation" by saying that its "not recommended for Fusion or con-fusion musicians."

[Soul Stream]

I doubt that Lou would have considered Baby Face Willette or John Patton serious bebop players when he hired them. That said, I know he deeply loved both of their playing and had a healthy respect of their talents. Lou loved Charlie Parker, but he also had a love of Eddie Vinson's blues playing and admits he owes a huge debt to Eddie in that area. Like Lou has said in the past, my playing will fit over anything. Lou loves the blues and hates fusion or avant garde playing...I understand that philosophy, although I don't adhere to it myself.

[chewy-chew-chew-bean-benitez]

LETS CALL HIM AND FIND OUT

[couw]

LETS CALL HIM AND FIND OUT

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

We don’t actually know which R&B musicians Lou was talking about in Bob Porter’s sleeve notes. I find it very hard to imagine he would have been referring to the likes of Joe Turner, Louis Jordan, Cleanhead Vinson, Ray Charles or Charles Brown. But they antedated Idris joining his band, which was in 1965, so they must have been related to what was going on before James Brown started developing Funk. And I think most of us dyed in the wool R&B fans, “of a certain age”, would agree that there were a lot of bad R&B records and musicians knocking around in the late fifties and early sixties. So Lou had plenty of scope for criticising specific musicians, singers or records.

But Lou had been moving his own music in an R&B direction since at least 1958, with “Blues walk”, or even the year before, with “Swing and soul”. This stemmed from his taking on the one and only Herman Foster, who spent the next several years alternating between Lou’s band and that of King Curtis. And by 1963, he had John Patton in the band – and Patton’s main work experience had been with Lloyd Price.

Bob Porter’s notes imply a swift change in Lou’s views. But that clearly isn’t the case. Apart from anything else, “Alligator bogaloo” was recorded after Idris had been in the band two years. It’s clear to me that a good bit of work had gone into the new style that album unveiled. And yet, it still follows along the general line of development Lou was taking from the late fifties on.

I can’t agree that Lou’s motivation for this was money. At the time “Alligator bogaloo” was recorded, no jazz musician had had a hit with this type of material and rhythm. Even Ramsey Lewis, the most successful jazz musician of the period, was using a rhythm that seems mostly to have been an adaptation of Motown. Lou’s hit came out of the blue and couldn’t have been predicted.

OK, you can argue that he kept it up because of money. I had a sneaking suspicion that was the case when “Midnight creeper” came out. Yes, it was a formula – just as Blue Note’s Hard Bop albums all had a “Sidewinder” as a hook. But I really came to the view that this was what he wanted to do (at least up until George Butler took over Blue Note after Francis Wolff’s death). Lou has said that the post-Wolff material was just stuff he was paid to turn up to do.

Lou isn’t really one for thrusting his views on music under one’s nose. But he did write the sleeve notes to his 1990 album, “Play the right thing” and these reveal where Lou was coming from, all the time, I think.

There were no bands playing happy jazz music. There seemed to be a lot of harmonic and technical mumbo jumbo. There was no wing, no blues, no soul, no chemistry between rhythm section and the horns. It was depressing to someone who has been associated with this music all his life. I had always assumed that, regardless of the style (traditional, swing, bebop), the soul of the music would be retained.

Yes, clearly Lou is on the same page as Crouch and Wynton, but, except for this one occasion, just letting his music speak for itself.

Lou was, in my view, never a standard kind of Bebopper, in the way Parker was for example. Sure, he learned tons from Parker (and others). But he also learned tons from Benny Carter. And what he got from Carter was elegance and serenity. So I don’t think it’s right to characterise Lou’s criticism of R&B, whatever it was, as being directed against music because it wasn’t complex enough. “Blues walk”, “Groove junction”, “Grits and gravy” complex? Give us a break.

Lou’s combination of funk, grease, elegance and serenity is his own. And it’s surely always been aimed at getting the people to have a good time.

Oh, and has Chewy got Lou's phone number?

MG

[K1969]

Like Lou has said in the past, my playing will fit over anything.

So why this purist, elitist aura around the man? I can understand it coming from Marsalis because it's reflected in his music. But coming from LD, it doesn't seem to make sense. I mean take his LP Cosmos for example. The first track, "the Caterpillar" is a pure pop outing featuring wah wah guitar and female vocalists chanting "Do the caterpillar, it a brand new groove". Now I quite like this kind of thing when i'm in the mood. I just can't couple it with what i read about the man. I think that maybe Dan Gould is onto something when he says that it's not this or that style of music itself that jars with Lou, but the pedigree of the generation of musicians that play it - a musician's elitism rather than a stylist's elitism. Maybe he'd have liked some fusion then, say if Johnny Griffin had replaced Bennie Maupin in Bitches brew and the Head Hunters?? (BTW I LOVE Bennie Maupin)

PS anyone got his number?

[K1969]

Bob Porter’s notes imply a swift change in Lou’s views. But that clearly isn’t the case. Apart from anything else, “Alligator bogaloo” was recorded after Idris had been in the band two years. It’s clear to me that a good bit of work had gone into the new style that album unveiled. And yet, it still follows along the general line of development Lou was taking from the late fifties on.

I can’t agree that Lou’s motivation for this was money. At the time “Alligator bogaloo” was recorded, no jazz musician had had a hit with this type of material and rhythm. Even Ramsey Lewis, the most successful jazz musician of the period, was using a rhythm that seems mostly to have been an adaptation of Motown. Lou’s hit came out of the blue and couldn’t have been predicted.

OK, you can argue that he kept it up because of money. I had a sneaking suspicion that was the case when “Midnight creeper” came out. Yes, it was a formula – just as Blue Note’s Hard Bop albums all had a “Sidewinder” as a hook. But I really came to the view that this was what he wanted to do (at least up until George Butler took over Blue Note after Francis Wolff’s death). Lou has said that the post-Wolff material was just stuff he was paid to turn up to do.

Lou isn’t really one for thrusting his views on music under one’s nose. But he did write the sleeve notes to his 1990 album, “Play the right thing” and these reveal where Lou was coming from, all the time, I think.

There were no bands playing happy jazz music. There seemed to be a lot of harmonic and technical mumbo jumbo. There was no wing, no blues, no soul, no chemistry between rhythm section and the horns. It was depressing to someone who has been associated with this music all his life. I had always assumed that, regardless of the style (traditional, swing, bebop), the soul of the music would be retained.

Yes, clearly Lou is on the same page as Crouch and Wynton, but, except for this one occasion, just letting his music speak for itself.

Lou was, in my view, never a standard kind of Bebopper, in the way Parker was for example. Sure, he learned tons from Parker (and others). But he also learned tons from Benny Carter. And what he got from Carter was elegance and serenity. So I don’t think it’s right to characterise Lou’s criticism of R&B, whatever it was, as being directed against music because it wasn’t complex enough. “Blues walk”, “Groove junction”, “Grits and gravy” complex? Give us a break.

Lou’s combination of funk, grease, elegance and serenity is his own. And it’s surely always been aimed at getting the people to have a good time.

Oh, and has Chewy got Lou's phone number?

MG

that figures - very interesting, thanks! I reckon that he didn't actually dislike any particular syle of music per se (his music was always too accessible for snobbery). Rather I 'm speculating that he feels, rightly or wrongly, that some genres had below par musicianship that lacked the "blues cry" or soul. Other than this weak attempt of mine to explain things, I'm struggling to understand how he could uniformly dislike such disparate syles as r&b, fusion and avant garde whilst sitting somewhere in the middle of it all with his own "Grits and Gravy" stock!????

[Soul Stream]

I do remember Lou saying once that the main objective of a musician should be to stay in business. I think he's done, and is still doing what he must to survive. He's come up with a winning formula that has served him well to this day. He's made a good living and has sent all of his children I believe to college, ect. He's done something that even the best jazz musicians rarely achieve dream and that's making a good living playing. Like Jackie McLean said in the documentary "Jackie McLean on Mars,"...Lou Donaldson's one of our finest living jazz saxophonists, do you think he LIKES playing 'Hot Dog!?' (actually I think he does. )

[chewy-chew-chew-bean-benitez]

i need his HOT DOG cd so bad- why did i pass it up-- for shame, chewy, for shame

[robertoart]

My memory of a recent blindfold test with Papa Lou suggests he is definitely of the Marsalis/ Couch mindset to a certain degree. I cannot remember the exact quote but Papa Lou was played an Ornette Coleman recording. his response was something along the lines of 'well it's not jazz, it might be interesting it might even be beautiful but it doesn't contain the essential ingredients of jazz'. I think he found it's closest comparison to folk traditions.

i found this to be an interesting response in as much as Lou 'like Ornette' defines within jazz that sound of the 'blues cry' discussed already in this thread. It would be interesting to find the actual BF test. It was in Jazztimes or Jazziz I think and would add more light into this I guess. Lou sounded a little like Mingus in his belief that even if you didn't exactly play songs with changes, that your playing should contain the information of it, for it to be jazz.

Edited April 29, 2007 by freelancer

[Tom Storer]

I recall Betty Carter furiously slamming Lou Donaldson because, according to her, when he "went commercial" to make a buck he would tell young musicians, "Forget that old-style jazz, that's the past, you have to live in the present," and then in the 80's when swingin' jazz was back in style, he presented himself as a hero of the noble old tradition and criticized the very compromises he had not only made himself but encouraged others to make.

That was her point of view. I'm just reporting.

[chewy-chew-chew-bean-benitez]

Charlotte Rampling, in the 'Night Porter'

[robertoart]

Getting into bed with the enemy.

Is that what Marsalis and Couch do?

[sidewinder]

At the London gig last year with Lonnie Smith (or was it the year before) that I saw, LD did make his usual scathing statement about 'fusion/confusion'. Maybe he says that at every gig? He seemed to be enjoying himself on 'Alligator Bogaloo' though.

[K1969]

At the London gig last year with Lonnie Smith (or was it the year before) that I saw, LD did make his usual scathing statement about 'fusion/confusion'. Maybe he says that at every gig? He seemed to be enjoying himself on 'Alligator Bogaloo' though.

The only confusion I have is exactly what Lou means by the term "fusion". It's a pretty prosaic term. Does he ever stick his neck out and mention any names? Did he openly criticize Bitches brew or Herbie's Headhunter for example?

[sidewinder]

I had the feeling when he was reciting the 'fusion/confusion' spiel that he's been saying the same script off rote every night since about 1976 ! With follow-on audience laughter perfectly coreographed.

Great show though !

[Dan Gould]

I had the feeling when he was reciting the 'fusion/confusion' spiel that he's been saying the same script off rote every night since about 1976 ! With follow-on audience laughter perfectly coreographed.

Great show though !

Exactly. I have quite a few recordings of LD shows and rare is the one that he doesn't include that line in the introduction to a bebop tune.

[Tom Storer]

I prefer a line Tommy Flanagan liked to use. He'd play a Dizzy Gillespie tune, for example, mention that it was bebop, turn to the audience and say, "Of course you know what bebop is. Bebop is the music from before the Beatles... and after the Beatles."

[danasgoodstuff]

I think the core issue for Lou D wasn't musical style or cultural vsignificance, it was personal professionalism. Up through the early '60s at least most R&B players (road bands, not studio) and more so singers were quite often rankly amature compared to a guy like Lou who came up when you just had to know certain shit to even get on a jazz bandstand, mush less make a living at it as Lou has for nearly 60 years now. same thing would apply to his attitude re fusion players who reduce everything to modes and don't really know standards like he does....

[K1969]

I think the core issue for Lou D wasn't musical style or cultural vsignificance, it was personal professionalism. Up through the early '60s at least most R&B players (road bands, not studio) and more so singers were quite often rankly amature compared to a guy like Lou who came up when you just had to know certain shit to even get on a jazz bandstand, mush less make a living at it as Lou has for nearly 60 years now. same thing would apply to his attitude re fusion players who reduce everything to modes and don't really know standards like he does....

I think that you're right. It goes back to what Dan Gould was saying at the beginning of this thread. Lou's was a kind of musician's elitism that crossed styles. It was neither about money, nor a thing against R&B or Fusion per se - just a thing against musicians who, rightly or wrongly in his eyes, hadn't paid thier dues. Nothing else, short of base hypocrisy, can explain why he qualified himself to decry new and ostensibly commercial styles of music whilst making a lot of, well, commercial music himself.