guitar sound in jazz

[jazz1]

I seemed to have received lots of flack for my criticism

of processed and distorted guitar sound on a recently reviewed cd.

I do accept the "old style" Gibson sound, a la Kenny Burrell, Jim Hall,

Jimmy and Doug Rainey.

I also accept and actually love the old B3 Hammond organ, it has a certain "analogue quality to it" but I do not like synth.

Some argue that we must move with time and accept "electronically created"

sound.

The question is, does it realy help music to move forward, is it a step in the right direction? I do not think so.

I am an audiophile too, and sound quality is critical too me, electronically interfered sound has no reference, to be completely frank I rather have a root canal than to listen to over processed guitar sound, especially within the context of an accoustic group.

It is maybe OK for rock

Myself, I like it "au naturel"

Just wandering if I am the only one thinking like that.

Maybe I am an exeption?? or maybe it just shows my age.

I remember going to a rock concert a few years ago, and I made the comment

"why so loud" my daughter answered. Dad if it is too loud, you are too old!!

[king ubu]

I seem to get your point, whilst not sharing your view. What do you think of Jimi Hendrix? Or Tony Williams' Lifetime, Miles Davis' "In A Silent Way" and "Bitches Brew" (all with John McLaughlin)?

I mean, it's perfectly alright not to like this, and who knows what is a step forward and what is/was just a step to some side...

I personally like Raney, Bauer, Smith, also Burrell, Green, Montgomery, and of course Christian and Django better than post-1968 (or whenever the "new" sounds started) most of the time.

Maybe someone here can give you some good recommendations for records that include distortion and whatever sounds, which would be a good introduction for you.

Maybe the first disc of Williams' Lifetime? I think that was called "Emergency", and it includes Larry Young on organ.

Maybe something by John Abercrombie, or John Scofield?

ubu

[jazzbo]

I love Hendrix (who could produce amazing guitarwork with a clean and full sound as well as the flights of fancy freakouts that he pioneered). . . . That said, I like my jazz guitar classically clean when combined with other acoustic instruments. In an organ set up or alongside some electric keys. . .okay, get some dirty on there I don't mind Sparks, et al. But I've really not played a lot of the Scofield funky cds, etc. for years and years, they fall flat to me, but Green and Burrell and Grimes etc. in full blown jazz mood are a delight.

So I guess I fall into the traditional jazz guitar camp for jazz.

[vibes]

I agree with Lon on this one. I love my effects processor and personally always play with lots of distortion, but then I don't play jazz, either. When played with acoustic instruments, distorted guitar just sounds out of place. A little reverb is about as far as I would go when adding effects to jazz guitar.

[jazz1]

I seem to get your point, whilst not sharing your view. What do you think of Jimi Hendrix? Or Tony Williams' Lifetime, Miles Davis' "In A Silent Way" and "Bitches Brew" (all with John McLaughlin)?

As I said, to me processed/distorted guitar sound does not seem to fit within the context of an accoustic jazz group.

I do admire Hendrix, but it is not really my scene.

The electric Miles Davis years where also not my favorites purely because of

"the electric content of the sound"

I think that a good jazz guitarist does not need sound effect to play "modern jazz"

Just thinking of other avant garde jazz musicians playing standard accoustic instruments.

Anyway the whole point is that to my ears, it sound like chalk on a blackboard.

Not pleasant. I just love beautiful tones, beautiful voice, natural sound.

I also think that to achieve a beautiful tone on a guitar or any other instrument is a challenge in itself.

But has they say, beauty is in the eyes of the beholder!!

[Harold_Z]

I definitely have a preference for the clean guitar sound - the traditional sound...

and when it comes to keyboards and their usefulness for my purposes I always have 2 questions: Does it get a good piano sound and does it get a good B3 sound?

Having said that - I DO think it's possible for someone using other synth sounds or a non-traditional guitar sound or a Rock sound play something of interest to me...it just doesn't happen as often.

...and I too dig the hell out of Hendrix.

[Joe G]

I had to chuckle when I saw the title of this thread and who started it, since I was the one who gave you the most flak!

For me it all depends on the player and the setting. It would sound pretty strange to hear someone like Peter Bernstein suddenly kick in a fuzz tone on one of his straight ahead albums. I don't think I would like that. But for the more exploratory forms of jazz, in the right hands a processed guitar tone can work wonders. For this kind of thing I like Abercrombie, Sco, Metheny, Rosenwinkel, Frisell, David Torn, and quite a few more. There are also plenty of examples where it didn't work, including recordings made by these fine players. One problem is that many jazzers don't automatically have a good rig setup to create distortion tones properly. It really takes as much thought and effort to get good distortion tones as it does to get good clean tones. Maybe more, since you're dealing with an amp that's basically screaming its head off.

It's also interesting to see how these guys go back and forth working on their tones. Abercrombie and Frisell used guitars synths in the 80's but both gave it up. Hell, Abercrombie even gave up the pick! In the mid 90's, Frisell had his pedal board get lost en route to a gig, and ended up liking the idea of playing without the effects. Lately Sco's gone the other way with his band, bringing in even more effects, but that's the kind of music they play. When he plays straight ahead, it's a more pure tone, with just a bit of grit.

In my own music, I tend towards cleaner, more natural sounding tones. I do like a touch-wah on funk numbers, and distortion is fun to rock out with a couple times a night. At home I never use an amp at all, and most often play my nylon string acoustic.

As far as jumping all over you in that other thread, jazz1, my main beef was your choice of words in that critique of Phil's album. You just kind of said it was "dumb" and left it at that. In your later posts you did a better job of explaining what you meant. I may even end up agreeing with you about the guitar tone once I get my copy of Playful Intentions, as I don't really like some of the choices Rosenwinkel made tone-wise on The Enemies of Energy. As I said though, I love his sound on The Next Step. Much more subtle use of distortion and echo. I recommend you check that disc out.

[jazz1]

As I said though, I love his sound on The Next Step. Much more subtle use of distortion and echo. I recommend you check that disc out.

Thanks for the technical comments, over the years I have listened to most of the

guys you mentioned, none of them ever interested me.

And if I think of it, it is not the musicians i don't enjoy. it is the sound.

But I will check your recommendation, looks interesting.

All the musicians mentioned are fantastic players.

Regarding "Playful intentions" the distortion is not overdoned it is just "the tone" which I don't like. I do admire Kurt's playing.

I love jazz guitar, I must have most Jimmy and Doug Raney recordings. this is the side of jazz guitar I enjoy. I also have lots of Jim Hall.

A few years back I bought an Andrew Cheshire cd on CIMP, I think that it is called

"relax keep the tension please'" I was wondering if he as done further recordings

Do you know??

I loved his version of Wayne Shorter "Footprints" and his guitar sound maybe conservative, but clear and warm, the type of things I am into.

[Trumpet Guy]

Ahhhh...Ummmm...I think,at LEAST... its acceptable.Can we really determine what is acceptable for jazz?

[Joe G]

Shall we start a poll?

[DrJ]

In GENERAL I prefer a clean sound, but take, for example, John Scofield's slightly overdriven sound on the Joe Henderson album SO NEAR, SO FAR (Verve) - in that context it sounds MIGHTY FINE to me.

I also like Pat Metheny's "clean sound mixed up front with long delay and subtle reverb in the background" sound. He gets the best of both worlds with that - a "legit jazz" sounding clean articulation, a la Jim Hall, but with a rockish undercurrent. And that's not even to mention his instantly identifiable guitar syth sound, that wonderful overdriven trumpet thang (although a little of that goes a long way). Pretty ingenious with the FX, that Mr. Metheny...so much so that Hall has actually done a return compliment and integrated effects quite brilliantly into his mature sound.

John McLaughlin's effects use has always struck me as very artistic and totally congruous in jazz contexts.

Another thought: what exactly IS a "clean" sound? Let's face it, a lot of Grant Green's unique "singing" tone had to do with the coloration provided by his axe and amp combination, so even his sound was not truly "clean." In the last 50 years or so, really only Joe Pass used a truly "clean" sound (on albums like VIRTUOSO) and, to be honest, it's not my favorite sound - TOO flat sounding, although to be able to make a guitar sing and play like he does with a complete lack of "cover" was indeed remarkable, big robust cojones to even try it and even bigger to pull it off with a landmark SERIES of recordings. And I guess Wes played pretty clean too, although with enough subtle overdrive on the edge that I would hesitate to include him in the Joe Pass Absence of Effects club.

Edited September 4, 2003 by DrJ

[Jim R]

What Trumpet Guy said. I happen to not enjoy players using effects myself, but it's a big world.

To me, and for my ears, there is a GREAT deal of subtle difference in the sounds created by many (most) of the great players who have eschewed the use of effects. I've said it before, but I even appreciate and differentiate between the various tones achieved by a individual artists (Kenny Burrell is a good example) who changed their equipment over the years. KB's early recordings (the BN and Prestige material recorded with a Gibson ES-175 with P-90 pickups) sound completely different from his 60's work with a D'Angelico New Yorker. So, there's a lot of subtlety to be explored even if we're only talking about guys who just plugged straight into an amp.

Tony, I was with you on the Grant Green comment (Grant's classic sound involved the use of a tube amp, the appeal of which for many players is it's ability to distort naturally, just enough to provide a "warmth" that solid state amps generally do not achieve); and I'm sort of with you on the Joe Pass comment (he did get a distinctly "clean" sound by the period you refer to, but I'm not sure I would say he was the "only" player to do so... but we'd be getting into subjective territory I suppose, and who's gonna care anyway ); Regarding Wes, he really got a lot of natural distortion, to my ears. It's especially evident when Wes played chords. For a long time, in fact, his sound was too "dirty" for my prefernces (until I realized that I had no choice but to get used to it and LIKE IT ).

As usual on a guitar topic, I digress. Let the effects lovers do their thing, I say.

Edited September 4, 2003 by Jim R

[Jim Alfredson]

Reminds me of when I first heard Kurt Rosenwinkle on Larry Goldings' record "Big Man" on Warner Bros. They were playing Duke's "Purple Gazelle" and Kurt was using a semi-distorted tone. I did not like it.

I was used to hearing Kenny Burrell and Wes and Grant and the idea of distortion on a guitar seemed weird to me. But as I listened to it more and started to get into Sco and McLaughlin thanks to Joe, it really opened up a new sonic world for me.

As far as synths go, I don't care for a lot of them. But I do like the occasional Minimoog type synth lead (with some distortion, no less) and other analog sounding synth tones as well as Rhodes and Wurli and other vintage keys.

The digital, 80s synths are just plain silly. I'm having a lot of fun playing around with the modern software synths. You can do amazing things with a computer nowadays.

[Joe G]

Big Stuff, actually. Great record. My response to the Purple Gazelle guitar solo was immediately positive. How interesting. I remember going straight to the musicality of it and not even being concerned with the fact that it was being played with distortion. Probably the fact that I used to be an Iron Maiden fanatic had something to do with that... :rsmile:

I think the guitarist with the cleanest tone today would have to be Martin Taylor. He's using a Benadetto or something and combines the humbucking pickup with a transducer in the bridge, getting a very bright and pure tone, closer to acoustic than electric actually. Very nice. Tuck Andress goes for that kind of thing as well, I understand.

Synths: Joe Zawinal, Lyle Mays, and Scott Kinsey are three guys that do them justice.

[JazzRules]

I seemed to have received lots of flack for my criticism

of processed and distorted guitar sound on a recently reviewed cd.

I do accept the "old style" Gibson sound, a la Kenny Burrell, Jim Hall,

Jimmy and Doug Rainey.

I also accept and actually love the old B3 Hammond organ, it has a certain "analogue quality to it" but I do not like synth.

Some argue that we must move with time and accept "electronically created"

sound.

The question is, does it realy help music to move forward, is it a step in the right direction? I do not think so.

I am an audiophile too, and sound quality is critical too me, electronically interfered sound has no reference, to be completely frank I rather have a root canal than to listen to over processed guitar sound, especially within the context of an accoustic group.

It is maybe OK for rock

Myself, I like it "au naturel"

Just wandering if I am the only one thinking like that.

Maybe I am an exeption?? or maybe it just shows my age.

I remember going to a rock concert a few years ago, and I made the comment

"why so loud" my daughter answered. Dad if it is too loud, you are too old!!

I've never been a big Scofield fan. Here's a fusion guy constantly getting jazz gigs, with some of the worst overall tone and effects I've ever heard. Year in, year out, same old Johnny B Bald. His style really leaves me cold.

I'm also not wild about Charlie Hunter or Bill Frissell either.

In contrast, look at Kurt Rosenwinkel. He does it all. Berili LaGrene, same thing. Look at Metheny. Same with Bollenback.

[JazzRules]

Jim, a cutaway L5 with Charlie Christian pickup? Can't be original I don't think.

[DrJ]

Jim R Posted: Sep 4 2003, 12:34 AM   

Regarding Wes, he really got a lot of natural distortion, to my ears. It's especially evident when Wes played chords. For a long time, in fact, his sound was too "dirty" for my prefernces (until I realized that I had no choice but to get used to it and LIKE IT  ).

Actually Jim, I'm with you on Wes...I was kind of thinking aloud as I wrote my post, and as I mentioned there, upon reflection I realized more and more that his sound was "dirtier" than I'd at first believed. Why it at first "seemed" cleaner, until I thought about it, is not fully clear to me, except that I think probably his fluidity probably in a sense tricks the ear into hearing things as cleaner than they were. Regardless, you're right on target.

Edited September 6, 2003 by DrJ

[Jim R]

Jim, a cutaway L5 with Charlie Christian pickup? Can't be original I don't think.

Gibson did do some custom-order guitars with CC pickups, but you're right- the instrument in my avatar (it was up on eBay some time ago, which is where I got the image) began life in 1957 as an acoustic L-5CN. The original owner had the CC pickup custom-installed in 1959. The late 50's was a time when the CC pickup had a resurgence in popularity, and a lot of the old stock of those pickups were made available by Gibson for such customizations. They also put out a very small run of L-4's (an acoustic archtop that looks like an ES-175 without pickups) with CC pickups, and those are extremely rare.

If you don't have it already, pick up Kenny Burrell's "Moten Swing" CD (reissue of the old "Bluesin' Around" album on Columbia). He used an L-5 with a CC on several tracks on that. A heavenly sounding guitar... especially in HIS hands.

[Jim Alfredson]

I'm also not wild about Charlie Hunter...

[JazzRules]

Jim, a cutaway L5 with Charlie Christian pickup? Can't be original I don't think.

Gibson did do some custom-order guitars with CC pickups, but you're right- the instrument in my avatar (it was up on eBay some time ago, which is where I got the image) began life in 1957 as an acoustic L-5CN. The original owner had the CC pickup custom-installed in 1959. The late 50's was a time when the CC pickup had a resurgence in popularity, and a lot of the old stock of those pickups were made available by Gibson for such customizations. They also put out a very small run of L-4's (an acoustic archtop that looks like an ES-175 without pickups) with CC pickups, and those are extremely rare.

If you don't have it already, pick up Kenny Burrell's "Moten Swing" CD (reissue of the old "Bluesin' Around" album on Columbia). He used an L-5 with a CC on several tracks on that. A heavenly sounding guitar... especially in HIS hands.

I kinda suspected the L5 started off as an acoustic. Electric L5s, L7s and L4s from that time period had a really UGLY pickup arrangement, where the pickup was built into a really ugly pickguard. McCartey's ideas weren't always good.

Burrell has always sounded nice. Typically though he opts for a Super400 rather than an L5. Even back in the days of yore. I seem to recall most of the pictures of him featured a sharp cutaway Super400.

[JazzRules]

I'm also not wild about Charlie Hunter...

He seems like a great guy and all. I'm just not into 8 string, wah wah fusion. Sorry.

[JazzRules]

What Trumpet Guy said. I happen to not enjoy players using effects myself, but it's a big world.

Regarding Wes, he really got a lot of natural distortion, to my ears. It's especially evident when Wes played chords. For a long time, in fact, his sound was too "dirty" for my prefernces (until I realized that I had no choice but to get used to it and LIKE IT ).

As usual on a guitar topic, I digress. Let the effects lovers do their thing, I say.

The reason Wes sounded distorted when he played chords is because he had his Bassman cranked for octaves. He had too because he used his thumb. The extra notes of a chord imparted just enough more input voltage to drive the amp into distortion.

I guess they didn't have volume pedals back then.

[Flibbert Goosty]

Andrew Cheshire has 7 other CD's in addition to the one on CIMP.

Visit his site is at

http://www.users.voicenet.com/~joule/cheshire.html

Cheers,

Flibby,