Collecting

[Soul Stream]

I just noticed a mint copy of Johnny Griffin's "Congregation" LP going for over $500 on ebay and the auction wasn't over.

It made me wonder. Why in the hell are people spending this kind of bread on something they probably will never listen to.

Certainly, I'm not above it in a sense. I spend (o.k.,waste) money on sonic upgrades, ect. Money I could put to better use in the world, charities, ect.

I guess this is just my guilt speaking a little bit. However, as much as I do or don't spend, it is on stuff I listen to.

But come on....hundreds of dollars on "mint" copies of stuff that's basically going on a shelf....

....at what point does collecting become vulgar?

[wolff]

Intersting. Opinions will vary on this one.

Paul Allen spends millions on LP's and the Seahawks. I know people who have spent a million plus on a 2 channel home stereo set-ups(the turntable is 75K, arm is 6k and cartridge is 10k). They give freely to charities and work/worked their asses off.

I'd rather spend $100 on a mint LP than 7 cd's any day. I play my expensive LP's all the time and so do other people I know that buy them. A properly set-up tt causes little wear on LP's. I have so many LP's, I could play 1 a day for 5 or 10 years and never repeat. I'll dub to cd if I want to play it to death. And these dubs are sounding mighty good these days. I'll sell that LP for around $100 in the future. How much could I get for those 7 cd's?

Art work is hung on a wall. What's the matter with hanging a 2k copy of Cool Struttin' on the wall, if that's your thing.

Rarity is another issue if you are into vinyl. If I saw a $500 price on an LP that I know is worth more, I'd buy it in a flash. In other words, $500 could be a smart buy. I've paid big bucks, just to resell a couple of times. Many people do that..Atomic Records for example.

I think what a lot of people spend on computers, cell phones, video games($50 a pop), concert tickets(my kid just spent $100 plus on one), satellite TV and NBA tickets is crazy, but that's their thing so it's fine with me.

Is it vulgar or a good deal???

Edited September 1, 2003 by wolff

[Soul Stream]

Intersting. Opinions will vary on this one.

Paul Allen spends millions on LP's and the Seahawks. I know people who have spent a million plus on a 2 channel home stereo set-ups(the turntable is 75K, arm is 6k and cartridge is 10k). They give freely to charities and work/worked their asses off.

I'd rather spend $100 on a mint LP than 7 cd's any day. I play my expensive LP's all the time and so do other people I know that buy them. A properly set-up tt causes little wear on LP's. I have so many LP's, I could play 1 a day for 5 or 10 years and never repeat. I'll dub to cd if I want to play it to death. And these dubs are sounding mighty good these days. I'll sell that LP for around $100 in the future. How much could I get for those 7 cd's?

Art work is hung on a wall. What's the matter with hanging a 2k copy of Cool Struttin' on the wall, if that's your thing.

Rarity is another issue if you are into vinyl. If I saw a $500 price on an LP that I know is worth more, I'd buy it in a flash. In other words, $500 could be a smart buy. I've paid big bucks, just to resell a couple of times. Many people do that..Atomic Records for example.

I think what a lot of people spend on computers, cell phones, video games($50 a pop), concert tickets(my kid just spent $100 plus on one), satellite TV and NBA tickets is crazy, but that's their thing so it's fine with me.

Is it vulgar or a good deal???

You know people who have spent 100K on a home turntable??!!!! Man, who do you know.

Well, I guess after reading that, I can see you must be a very high-dollar collector.

My post isn't to meant offend. But I guess I'll tell you what I really think about these things, and hope we can agree to disagree. Imho, the thought of collecting is a futile endeavor. You're born, you collect, you die, someone sells your collection. That collection could be anything from expensive sports cars to beanie babies. The end result is the same.

If you dig music, it's the music that matters...not what pressing, not the cool graphics on a cover. $100,000 on a turntable to play a 2,000 jackie mclean album when you can get basically the same results from a 15 dollar cd and a decent system at Best Buy. Hey man, for that money you can HIRE Jackie McLean to come play at your house.

I'll put it this way, John Patton was scaping for money to pay the rent at the same time I saw his LPs selling for 75 bucks on ebay. Something's wrong with that. Our society and many others have lost sight of what's important here. Next time someone wants to buy a $500 Johnny Griffin album...buy the CD and send Johnny the change with a note about how much you dig his music.

o.k., I know that was a little rough, but that's how I feel about it.

[vibes]

I don't think there's anything wrong with collecting. You always have to remember that we all choose different ways to spend our money, and many people may not understand why we do that. I always have my eBay winnings mailed to my office, and when people find out how much I pay for stuff like OOP Mosaics, they think I'm insane. It's just a question of priorities.

As a kid, I used to look at people around me and wonder what was wrong with their priorities for the same reason. My father has always been the greatest example of this to me. When I was in high school, he had 3 Porsches, a limited-edition Saleen Mustang and a Suburban all for himself. However, he refuses to spend more than $10 when he goes out to eat (Sizzler is about as good as it gets for my parents), only buys his suits extra cheap in LA's garment district, tries to stay only at Motel 6 when he travels. I always thought that this was really strange, but now that I'm older and spend a ton of money on things that many people don't care about, I understand a little better. Think of how big many of our music collections are. Think of how much money some people on this board spend on hi-fi systems. A lot of people would think we're insane. We just put our money where it means the most to us.

[Christiern]

Sometimes the line between must-have collecting and investment is a thin one.

[Brad]

This came up a few days ago on a Jackie Mac Ad lib cd that was on ebay and the last bid was for around $2000 (had a reserve so it didn't sell). I got a little criticized by J Larson for the same reasons Soul Stream brought up. SeeAd Lib Discussion. We all are into collecting I believe although I like to believe I'm buying it for the music, not just to add another cd to my collection. I'm into Dexter but I'm not going to buy a piece of music because it stinks. I suppose if you're collecting Blue Note LPs and you have to have a $500 lp I suppose that's your business. I know that I can something else with that money. $500, if I strictly kept it to jazz, probably would have helped me buy one of the Mosaic Commodores I saw a few years ago in NYC.

There's always better ways that money can be spent to more profitable uses. But there are people willing to spend money out there in profligate ways so what you can say. What I may see as ludicrous, people may see as wise and vice versa.

Edited September 1, 2003 by Brad

[J Larsen]

Imho, the thought of collecting is a futile endeavor. You're born, you collect, you die, someone sells your collection. That collection could be anything from expensive sports cars to beanie babies. The end result is the same.

But you can say that about anything. The most you can do is make yourself (and perhaps others) happy while you're here. If collecting records makes a guy happy, I'm not going to rain on his parade. It's not really for me, but then again I'm not a rich guy and spending what money I have on travel, sports and the occassional fancy restaurant is what makes me happiest.

[Soul Stream]

Imho, the thought of collecting is a futile endeavor.  You're born, you collect, you die, someone sells your collection.  That collection could be anything from expensive sports cars to beanie babies.  The end result is the same.

But you can say that about anything. The most you can do is make yourself (and perhaps others) happy while you're here. If collecting records makes a guy happy, I'm not going to rain on his parade. It's not really for me, but then again I'm not a rich guy and spending what money I have on travel, sports and the occassional fancy restaurant is what makes me happiest.

But I think the difference is just this.

A COLLECTOR is only happy when they KNOW they have everything, or that one thing they MUST have (usually as soon as they get that item, they MUST have something else ) The happiness is in the knowing....the collecting. Not really in the items.

I'm making a ditinction between people who have a lot of things that may or may not be collectable (records, cars, ect), that bring them immediate joy and satisfaction in the USE of that item. Driving a 57 Chevy and enjoying it is much different from say...owning ten 57 Chevys and only really enjoying the fact that you HAVE ten 57 Chevys.

I know people that have lots of a particular item, whom I don't consider collectors. For me it's jazz Cds, but I wouldn't say I'm a collector... I just like the music and the music is on Cds.

Still I think it's a shame the jazz artists LPs we're paying so much for are basically struggling. Were's the balance?

Edited September 1, 2003 by Soul Stream

[J Larsen]

A COLLECTOR is only happy when they KNOW they have everything, or that one thing they MUST have (usually as soon as they get that item, they MUST have something else ) The happiness is in the knowing....the collecting. Not really in the items.

I think you're making a lot of assumptions about what makes "collectors" as a whole tick. I also think these assumptions don't necessarily agree with what I've observed. I've never personally known a serious jazz collector, but I have known serious collectors of other genres and I think they'd be depressed if they ever knew they had everything, because it's the hunt that they get their kicks from. (I'll admit I've known one exception who fits your profile very well, but he is very wealthy and very poorly socially adjusted.) Also, your theory clearly doesn't apply to other types of collectors, such as collectors of paintings. It is obviously impractical to collect ALL the paintings of a particular artist, but people seem quite content to collect the few that they can find, afford and enjoy.

[paul secor]

If you dig music, it's the music that matters...not what pressing, not the cool graphics on a cover.  $100,000 on a turntable to play a 2,000 jackie mclean album when you can get basically the same results from a 15 dollar cd and a decent system at Best Buy.  Hey man, for that money you can HIRE Jackie McLean to come play at your house.

That sounds a right to me. If you've got that kind of money, hire some good musicians to play at your place, invite some friends, and let the good times roll! Who cares about a damn record when you can hear the real deal and have all those memories?

[wolff]

OK, Soul Stream, I see what you are saying. These $500 LP's are very, very rare. Both in availability and number sold. I think for every $$$$ LP these guys buy they spend 4 or 5 times that amount on current releases that hopefully help the artist eat. Do not single out the collector for the way way our society treats musicians...wrong target. The guy who just buys to put on a shelf and say he has it is very rare. Most people I know that collect expensive LP's are no different than the guy who collects all of Coltrane's released material.

I just paid $80 for your friend's "Two Souls in One" original, mono BN in mint condition. Why would I do that when I could find the CD or later pressing LP for $9.98 somewhere? Bottom line, for about 10 reasons, I like it more. It is of very, very high quality. The quality is something I do not see or hear in the CD. To me this is a better buy, by a long shot. I collect LP's the way most of you collect CD's. It's a hobby of mine, again no different than collecting Mosaics. It's just a different format. How about the Japanese CD's you guys buy for $30/40? That's a "collecting" thing in my book, and one I have trouble understanding(not really).

I want you all to add up how much you've spent on your LP/CD collections and then see how you feel about "collectors". I see many of you paying 'collector' prices for OOP Mosaics and nobody bitches about the starving/ struggling artist(actually, you do, but still buy them) . Are these sets to play and enjoy or just to add to your collection ?

Here is a link to the turntable an acquantance of mine owns. He's owned a Honda dealership for years. Home and listening room custom built. I believe Sony has 3 of these tt's to archive their catalog as they do not trust digital.

$73k turntable

[Soul Stream]

Thanks for the insight Wolff. I guess I'm more curious than anything. I certainly have my own tastes and needs when it comes to music buying and listening.

I'm also curious as to where, for the most part, people find "mint" original Blue Notes. "Mint" must be and almost unachievable qualification. Are these coming out of well maintained collections or has someone found an old record distributor's warehouse.

[wolff]

Some people are completly happy with boom boxes and MP3's. Others, well.....

Truly mint BN's are very rare. Some come by only once or twice a year on ebay.

For every 10 mint I've bought only 1 was actually mint. The other were in great shape, but not mint.

I do not know where they come from. I hear of large mint collections being sold now and then. I'd guess most come from private collections in small numbers. A lot of older part-time jazz DJ's collected and kept their LP's in great shape.

Remember, not all original BN's are $$$$. 4100 and up are, for the most part, $20-$100 for nice original copies.

[J Larsen]

Here is a link to the turntable an acquantance of mine owns. He's owned a Honda dealership for years. Home and listening room custom built. I believe Sony has 3 of these tt's to archive their catalog as they do not trust digital.

$73k turntable

My understanding is that they made 20 of those and they are never making any more. According to what you've said, you've accounted for 20% of the market.

[wolff]

My understanding is that they made 20 of those and they are never making any more. According to what you've said, you've accounted for 20% of the market.

Your point is???? You could contact Andy and see how many he has sold and to whom if you like. Other than that I have no idea what you are saying.

Rockport Technologies, 229 Mill Street, Rockport, ME 04856. Tel: (207) 596-7151. Fax: (207) 596-7151

[J Larsen]

No point, just an observation.

[connoisseur series500]

A COLLECTOR is only happy when they KNOW they have everything, or that one thing they MUST have (usually as soon as they get that item, they MUST have something else )  The happiness is in the knowing....the collecting.  Not really in the items.

I think you're making a lot of assumptions about what makes "collectors" as a whole tick. I also think these assumptions don't necessarily agree with what I've observed. I've never personally known a serious jazz collector, but I have known serious collectors of other genres and I think they'd be depressed if they ever knew they had everything, because it's the hunt that they get their kicks from. (I'll admit I've known one exception who fits your profile very well, but he is very wealthy and very poorly socially adjusted.) Also, your theory clearly doesn't apply to other types of collectors, such as collectors of paintings. It is obviously impractical to collect ALL the paintings of a particular artist, but people seem quite content to collect the few that they can find, afford and enjoy.

I've suffered from the illness known as "collecting" throughout most of my life. If I ever happened to encounter that hell known as a complete collection then I would try to sell it off and move on to some other thing to collect.

JL is totally correct in my book: the joy of collecting is in the hunt not the consummation of the endeavor.

Edited September 2, 2003 by connoisseur series500

[Leeway]

There is no point in arguing against collecting. One might almost consider it a natural hunter-gatherer instinct, and it goes on in all fields. The closest parallel to collecting LPs is collecting books. One could read James Joyce in a $5.00 paperback, or one could spend thousands on a first-edition-- or do both.

My sense is that what bothers people in the case of Blue Notes is that buying these OOP LPs is like buying-up the heritage. One gets to "own" BN in a way that one does not when buying a CD. And this is tied in to larger class issues in this country, where a minority (mostly well-heeled) baby-boomers practice seemingly unlimited consumerism. They have the $50,000 cars, the $500,000 houses, the $10,000 vacations, their kids get the pick of schools. If they turn their attention to BNs, they buy, buy, buy. It's conspicuous consumption on a scale not seen since the Gilded Age. It's in-your-face consumerism. And sometimes, people get pissed.

[Tjazz]

[connoisseur series500]

It's in-your-face consumerism. And sometimes, people get pissed.

I dunno. None of that pisses me off. I don't have the money for that stuff, but it doesn't bother me that others do. I'm just happy that people appreciate this stuff and are willing to be big $$$ for it.

[Jazzmoose]

I'm just happy that people appreciate this stuff and are willing to be big $$$ for it.

Does this mean you have a stash of Blue Note vinyl waiting to hit eBay?

[Tjazz]

It gets a bit vulgar when the collection takes over the apt/house. (life)