Sport: 2007 NBA Play-Offs Pool

[Guy Berger]

The Bulls just aren't looking good right now. It's going to take a miracle for them to win this one.

Tayshaun Prince has been fantastic.

Congrats to Darko, Jim A and all the other Pistons fans on the board.

Ever since Stephen Jackson joined the Warriors I'm much more sympathetic to Rasheed.

Guy

Edited May 18, 2007 by Guy

[Noj]

Well, the real Pistons finally suited up and the Bulls went quietly. With a few improvements I imagine Chicago will be back in the hunt next year. Detroit will breeze through Jersey or Cleveland, and get a tired opponent in the Finals. The Pistons are sitting pretty.

[Guy Berger]

Well, the real Pistons finally suited up and the Bulls went quietly. With a few improvements I imagine Chicago will be back in the hunt next year. Detroit will breeze through Jersey or Cleveland, and get a tired opponent in the Finals. The Pistons are sitting pretty.

Well, they shouldn't take Jersey/Cleveland lightly and DEFINITELY shouldn't take whoever comes out of the west lightly. But they have a decent chance at another title.

If the Suns get knocked out by the Spurs, I'll be rooting for Detroit the rest of the way.

Guy

[Jim R]

Ever since Stephen Jackson joined the Warriors I'm much more sympathetic to Rasheed.

I don't know how serious you are there, but it's an interesting thing regardless. I guess I'm a tiny bit more sympathetic toward Jackson now that I've had a chance to see him in interiews (and getting screwed a few times by zebras, who no doubt enjoy screwing him by now), but overall I'd prefer that we get rid of him (if we can get something/someone decent in return... which I know would be tricky business).

I'm not even close to feeling any more sympathetic to Rasheed- especially after his antics tonight. That traveling call where the replay clearly showed him dancing all over the place, followed by his crying and whining actually made me feel a little more sympathy toward the zebras, if that's possible. Watching Prince and Billups was great. Watching Rasheed made me want to see what else was on tv. He showed me no class in his postgame interview, either. Anyway, aside from that knucklehead, I like the Pistons.

[Jim Alfredson]

Rasheed is just passionate about the game. Why the league continually tries to beat that out of players, I don't know. It's not like he's out there picking fights with guys. He's just animated and gets into it.

The bullshit of it is that Deng did the same thing a few plays later and the refs look the other way. They target 'Sheed like crazy. But it doesn't matter... they can't change the way he is.

[Jim R]

I can't buy the "Rasheed is just passionate" argument. A lot of players are passionate, but they don't make complete asses of themselves. I don't blame guys for getting animated occasionally when they're on the wrong end of a bonehead call, but come on... Rasheed is like the boy who cried wolf in that respect. You can't vigorously object to 97% (okay, so I exaggerated ) of the calls against you and expect to have any credibility with anybody. Fortunately for Sheed, he's a very talented player who can get away with acting like an idiot (like taking four steps with the ball and then running down the court flailing your arms and screaming when the refs calls you for traveling). Refs are human, and I don't blame them for making life a little harder on guys like Rasheed and Steven Jackson. That is, having a slightly shorter fuse where they're concerned. It may not be totally fair all the time, but that's life. I don't think those kind of players should get screwed by bad calls more often, and generally I don't think they do. They just get tossed more easily when they lose it- often over a call that was correct in the first place. Anyway, to me, saying "Rasheed is just passionate" is about as objective as saying "Bruce Bowen just plays hard".

Btw, like I said I dig the Pistons. I felt this way about Rasheed long before he ever arrived in Detroit.

[Patrick]

Refs accommodate the passionate Sheed like crazy. If anything, it encourages his behavior. He was whining all night. At one point, one ref gently said "that's enough" and didn't T him up. This just gives Sheed more rope, and since he's oblivious, he eventually runs out of rope. I don't think Deng was whining nearly as much as Wallace was last night.

Pistons look tough and deep. Probably will plow through Cle/NJ, and have a very good chance of defending the championship for the Eastern Conference.

[paul secor]

Rasheed is just passionate about the game. Why the league continually tries to beat that out of players, I don't know. It's not like he's out there picking fights with guys. He's just animated and gets into it.

The bullshit of it is that Deng did the same thing a few plays later and the refs look the other way. They target 'Sheed like crazy. But it doesn't matter... they can't change the way he is.

But he can change the way he is. Or at least he should be able to.

[paul secor]

Please no.

Agreed. I'd rather watch Pistons vs. Spurs for 3 years in a row before I could sit through a Lakers vs. Heat series.

I thought Horry got two because he also went after Raja Bell.

Obviously this is a purely counterfactual argument, but Horry would have been suspended one game max had it not been for Amare and Boris.

Guy

I agree with Guy. I think that if it hadn't been for the other two suspensions Horry might even have gotten away with a fine. Horry's two games were just a make up by the league.

[Patrick]

I agree with you guys (Guy included). I never bothered to study all of the tape to see what each individual did, though I do find the "Amare was going to the table to check into the game" a pretty lame (...if not creative) attempted excuse.

[Jim Alfredson]

Anyway, to me, saying "Rasheed is just passionate" is about as objective as saying "Bruce Bowen just plays hard".

Not really, since Bowen is actively trying to hurt people. 'Sheed just acts out like a goof. Does his acting out really affect the game or the other players in the game physically? Of course not.

I'd rather have 'Sheed on my team than a bunch of automons who play the game and never show any emotions, which is what it seems the league is after. Boring.

[Noj]

It was pretty funny last night, when 'Sheed got his technical foul, he pitched a fit on a play where he clearly dribbled off his own foot.

[Aggie87]

Bowen is actively trying to hurt people.

I know I'm in the minority here (and am a Spurs fan), but I don't think Bowen is "actively" trying to hurt people. If that were the case, he should have alot of ejections and suspensions, shouldn't he? I don't buy any argument that the league favors the Spurs, because there's simply no basis or logic in that. They're not a flashy, fun-to-watch team for most of the nation.

Bowen is a very physical defender in a physical game. Maybe the best overall defender in hoops - at the expense the rest of his game (minus 3 point shooting). Being very physical sometimes results in going over the line a little, and in those particular instances, he should be held to the fire like any other player.

What he does do is he gets in people's space and messes up their timing more than anyone else does. Yet he does it while rarely fouling out of games, and rarely being ejected. I think he plays hard, and is physical, and it bothers his opponent every time they play him. He gets into their head just with his presence, and they have to think about who is guarding them, so in that sense he's won part of the battle already.

</fan boy glasses off>

[Guy Berger]

Bowen is actively trying to hurt people.

I know I'm in the minority here (and am a Spurs fan), but I don't think Bowen is "actively" trying to hurt people.

What about jumpkicking Wally Sczerbiak? Or kicking Ray Allen in the back?

Guy

[Noj]

Extended Bruce Bowen Highlight Reel

[Jim R]

Anyway, to me, saying "Rasheed is just passionate" is about as objective as saying "Bruce Bowen just plays hard".

Not really, since Bowen is actively trying to hurt people. 'Sheed just acts out like a goof. Does his acting out really affect the game or the other players in the game physically? Of course not.

I'd rather have 'Sheed on my team than a bunch of automons who play the game and never show any emotions, which is what it seems the league is after. Boring.

Jim, I agree with you that the league has been too heavy-handed in terms of squashing emotions. I think the infamous Pacers/Pistons/fans brawl caused the league to get more paranoid (and to some extent I can understand that).

As far as my comment re Sheed and Bowen- hey, I'm not comparing the two players. I was only hypothetically comparing the objectivity of two comments about those two players. I'm not saying Sheed is dirty. You're recognizing that Sheed is a goof, but you're defending his style more than I'm willing to. You've no doubt watched and listened to him more than I have, so I won't try to sway you. I just really have never liked the guy's actions on the court.

[Jim R]

Bowen is actively trying to hurt people.

I know I'm in the minority here (and am a Spurs fan), but I don't think Bowen is "actively" trying to hurt people. If that were the case, he should have alot of ejections and suspensions, shouldn't he? I don't buy any argument that the league favors the Spurs, because there's simply no basis or logic in that. They're not a flashy, fun-to-watch team for most of the nation.

Bowen is a very physical defender in a physical game. Maybe the best overall defender in hoops - at the expense the rest of his game (minus 3 point shooting). Being very physical sometimes results in going over the line a little, and in those particular instances, he should be held to the fire like any other player.

What he does do is he gets in people's space and messes up their timing more than anyone else does. Yet he does it while rarely fouling out of games, and rarely being ejected. I think he plays hard, and is physical, and it bothers his opponent every time they play him. He gets into their head just with his presence, and they have to think about who is guarding them, so in that sense he's won part of the battle already.

</fan boy glasses off>

I haven't even looked at the link in Noj's last post yet, but I'll strongly disagree with the idea that Bowen is okay because he's a "physical" defender. That may be (although he's probably no more physical than most good defenders), but if we can't all agree that Bowen is a cheapshot artist (and I do mean artist, because a lot of his cheapshots are masterfully subtle), then I'd say some of us are not paying full attention.

[Aggie87]

I haven't even looked at the link in Noj's last post yet, but I'll strongly disagree with the idea that Bowen is okay because he's a "physical" defender. That may be (although he's probably no more physical than most good defenders), but if we can't all agree that Bowen is a cheapshot artist (and I do mean artist, because a lot of his cheapshots are masterfully subtle), then I'd say some of us are not paying full attention.

I prefaced my statement by saying I was a Spurs fan.

I know he's done some things like the Ray Allen kick, etc. I also said he should be held to the fire for the things he has done that were clearly wrong.

But he's also a 7 time member of the NBA All Defensive First and Second Teams. He's played his style of defense successfully in far more games than he's had incidents. He's played in over 440 consecutive games since 2002 (per Wikipedia), without a suspension.

If he were truly as dirty as everyone says, wouldn't he have a few suspensions in there somewhere? Wouldn't something have happened to merit at least one suspension?

edit - I can't get youtube at work, so I can't see Noj's link either, but I've seen something similar before.

Edited May 18, 2007 by Aggie87

[Soulstation1]

Nash Kickin' Kobe In The Ballzzz

[Guy Berger]

Ever since Stephen Jackson joined the Warriors I'm much more sympathetic to Rasheed.

I don't know how serious you are there, but it's an interesting thing regardless. I guess I'm a tiny bit more sympathetic toward Jackson now that I've had a chance to see him in interiews (and getting screwed a few times by zebras, who no doubt enjoy screwing him by now),

From what I've seen and read, Jackson is a good guy who routinely makes bad judgment calls. He's not known (at least on the Warriors) as a guy who starts fights or generates a lot of hard/flagrant fouls.* He just whines and argues with the refs too much.

*Yeah, I know he was involved in the Palace Brawl. Any other incidents?

but overall I'd prefer that we get rid of him (if we can get something/someone decent in return... which I know would be tricky business).

One point: without Jackson, the Warriors would not have made it into the playoffs or beaten the Mavs.

That said, I largely agree. If the Warriors can get something worthwhile for him, trade him. I would much rather get rid of Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtle Harrington, though.

I'm not even close to feeling any more sympathetic to Rasheed

An out of control whiner (and no, I don't buy the "passionate" argument -- the dude definitely has "issues" that need counseling) but ultimately not a bad guy. Unlike Bowen or James Posey.

Guy

Edited May 18, 2007 by Guy

[Jim R]

I prefaced my statement by saying I was a Spurs fan.

I hear ya.

I know he's done some things like the Ray Allen kick, etc. I also said he should be held to the fire for the things he has done that were clearly wrong.

But he's also a 7 time member of the NBA All Defensive First and Second Teams. He's played his style of defense successfully in far more games than he's had incidents. He's played in over 440 consecutive games since 2002 (per Wikipedia), without a suspension.

If he were truly as dirty as everyone says, wouldn't he have a few suspensions in there somewhere? Wouldn't something have happened to merit at least one suspension?

First of all, I don't blame you for sticking up for him in the sense that he's a proven star defensive player (he can win a game with a 3 too, as we saw the other day). To me, his defensive prowess and his "playing hard" is totally separate, completely separate, from the complaints being aimed at him. Two different things. I see no reason why he couldn't continue to excel defensively- to the same level- without resorting to the cheapshot stuff.

I think the reason Bowen hasn't been seriously penalized (yet) is that- as I said above- he's subtle. Hell, I might as well admit it- he's GOOD at getting away with dirty stuff. I'll freely admit that it's somewhat subjective, but I don't have any doubt in my own mind that the kick to Stoudamire's achilles was intentional. Watch it at normal speed, and it's tough to figure out how he could pull it off so well. It really happened fast. Watch it in slow motion, and it's pretty easy to see (imo) that he's doing it intentionally. The plays where he puts his foot under people who are up in the air... that's subtle too. It's kind of a grey area when that happens. But when it keeps happening over and over, red flags need to go up. The Sczerbiak thing is kind of mind-boggling. That's one of the dirtiest things I've ever seen on a basketball court. I don't remember ever hearing about it, and I don't know how long ago it occurred, but... there it is on film. If he wasn't punished then (and I'm not suggesting that he wasn't- I just haven't heard about it), he at least deserves to be scrutinized all the more for the things he's done lately. The big picture. With the Stoudamire incident and then the knee to Nash's groin occuring so soon after, I'd say the guy better watch his "step".

Edited May 18, 2007 by Jim R

[Jim R]

Guy, I agree with you re Jackson. The problem is his mouth, and his lack of control. He's a lot like Sheed in that respect (not as bad, imo, because he veils his whining by going on and on and on with his complaints- but in a more calm way).

I also agree that we wouldn't have done what we did this year without him. But like I said (and you seem to agree), IF we can replace his performance and numbers by getting somebody without the issues, we'll be better off in the long run. Like I said, easier said than done. Who knows, maybe he'll gradually mature.

Harrington's okay. I'd say he's expendible too, but I'd sooner get rid of Jackson. I'd like to see Al stay and let's see if he improves his weaker areas (and if we get to the playoffs again, whether he can be a more consistent contributor).

I've got this weird feeling about this team, in terms of wondering if they'll ever get beyond what they accomplished this year. Baron is no doubt a great player, but he's got some issues as well (health; and to some degree, temperament). I'm not saying we should try to move him, I'm just a little bit worried about his long-term future. Hopefully he can stay healthier.

Also, JRich... I dunno... an extremely talented player, but will he ever become a consistent go-to guy in BIG games. A guy who can not only deliver physically, but make good decisions. I'm not entirely convinced, and I've wondered about this for a long time, even after seeing him choke up in pressure situations in close games during the regular season. It's probably not entirely fair to judge him after one playoff run, and I know the whole team was gassed by the time we got into those last two games against the Jazz, but I think the jury is still out.

Anyway, just thinking out loud... I'm not suggesting a major restructuring or anything. The bottom line for me is, this team is more FUN to watch than they've been in a long time.

[Aggie87]

The bottom line for me is, this team is more FUN to watch than they've been in a long time.

I agree - they were the most exciting team to watch in the playoffs this year, IMO.

[Soulstation1]

the gorilla has put away his suit for the summer

[Guy Berger]

Guy, I agree with you re Jackson. The problem is his mouth, and his lack of control. He's a lot like Sheed in that respect (not as bad, imo, because he veils his whining by going on and on and on with his complaints- but in a more calm way).

Agreed -- at least he doesn't completely spazz out like Sheed. The things that really pissed me off (more than the whining) was that he wouldn't get back on defense due to whining, and that he would occasionally hog the ball in order to "prove a point".

Who knows, maybe he'll gradually mature.

Not going to happen.

I'd like to see Al stay and let's see if he improves his weaker areas (and if we get to the playoffs again, whether he can be a more consistent contributor).

Not going to happen. The guy's been in the league nine years. He's always going to be a mediocre rebounder who disappears in 4th quarters and seems genetically unable to jump more than 3 inches.

I've got this weird feeling about this team, in terms of wondering if they'll ever get beyond what they accomplished this year.

They won't. This is a team that will not win more than 48 games and will not advance any further in the playoffs than the 2nd round.

Baron... Hopefully he can stay healthier.

Not going to happen either.

Also, JRich... I dunno... an extremely talented player, but will he ever become a consistent go-to guy in BIG games. A guy who can not only deliver physically, but make good decisions. I'm not entirely convinced, and I've wondered about this for a long time, even after seeing him choke up in pressure situations in close games during the regular season. It's probably not entirely fair to judge him after one playoff run, and I know the whole team was gassed by the time we got into those last two games against the Jazz, but I think the jury is still out.

I thought JRich had a decent playoff run, personally. The guy is what he is -- an above average player who will never be an all star. He'd be the fourth option on a really good team. That said, props to him for gradually improving his game season after season.

Guy