Soul Stream Posted August 31, 2003 Report Posted August 31, 2003 I had a conversation with George Braith last night that I thought ya'll would find as interesting as I did. Yesterday, I recieved an LP copy of George's Prestige date "Laughing Soul." I called George to tell him how much I dug his Cowboy look on the front cover! Anyway, we started talking about the album. And immediately George said, "Oh yeah, I don't like the sound on that." If you have the album, you know the sound is VERY different from George's BNs. Braith said he told Rudy he wanted a sound similar to his Blue Note dates and Rudy ABSOLUTELY refused. He was adamat that the sound was the BN sound and he could not replicate it. At this point I asked George if he was talking about Rudy or Cal Lampely, the producer of the date. No, it was Rudy he repeated. In the end George was very unhappy with the sounds that Rudy got on that album. I thought it was wild how much input Rudy seemed to have on the final sound vs the producer. We all know RVG tried to create different sounds for different labels. But this first hand insight seemed to shed light on just how this occured. In my opinion, many of those mid-sixties Prestige dates (Braiths, Freddie Roach's come to my) are almost cut off at the knees by the horrible sound. I always thought it was the result of a producer's bad taste, now I'm not so sure. Thought this would be of interest. Quote
Cali Posted August 31, 2003 Report Posted August 31, 2003 Thanks for this thread, SS. On the old BNBB I brought up that in the 60's, jazz fans would always recognize "the Blue Note Sound" whenever there was a new release, just by walking past the local record store. I was recalling that BNs had a different (and better) sound even though Rudy was the engineer for other companies as well, notably Prestige. I was shouted down and accused of being biased. I'm happy to see a confirmation of what I and others always knew. Quote
Dmitry Posted August 31, 2003 Report Posted August 31, 2003 He had acknowledged that the BN sound was really Lion's, and that he recorded for BN specifically the way Lion wanted him to. Quote
JSngry Posted August 31, 2003 Report Posted August 31, 2003 You gotta respect the guy's ethics in not betraying the "secrets" of his clients even as you wish he had been a little less ethical every time you hear some of the results of him doing so. What I want to know now is who created the "Muse sound", the one that's got so much reverb it's almost traumatic? Some of the late 60s BNs have it too, but not as much as the Muses. Is this the "Bob Porter sound"? Quote
JSngry Posted August 31, 2003 Report Posted August 31, 2003 Nah, Dorn had his own sound - that dry Atlantic thing with pianos that are almost in tune! Quote
jazzbo Posted August 31, 2003 Report Posted August 31, 2003 I know it's not Dorn. . .yeah, his sound was like a drought in comparison. . . but the Masked Announcer, the real uncredited one . . . I dunno. . . I think he's in the mix. Quote
wolff Posted September 1, 2003 Report Posted September 1, 2003 Very interesting. Wow, you called up George Braith!! What a coincidence. For the first time, I was listening to 2 of his BN lp's (Two Souls in One and 'Extension'). I listened to these real 'hard' and found Two Souls quite nice. I love the neuance he gets out of his horn. Not an easy listen, but who needs 'Kind of Blue' all the time. I do find it troublesome that Braith disliked the sound and the engineer did not remedy it. A deaf man can tell difference between BN and Prestige sound. At times, I like the mellow. rolled off Prestige sound just fine. Quote
davef Posted September 1, 2003 Report Posted September 1, 2003 Great story! BTW, how is George doing? Quote
Soul Stream Posted September 1, 2003 Author Report Posted September 1, 2003 ....hey, George Braith is doing great! On Monday, he's going to Barcelona, Spain to gig with an organ trio there for a week. It'll be his first trip to Europe since 1973 he said! Alvin Queen's booking agent might be hooking George up with some European dates and so forth soon....hopefully will start getting some of that well deserved attention soon. If not here, at least abroad. Other than that his new CD "Boptronics" may be getting picked up for Japanese distribution. He'll know after the 15th of September. I'll keep everyone posted. Quote
Peter A Posted September 1, 2003 Report Posted September 1, 2003 In my opinion, many of those mid-sixties Prestige dates (Braiths, Freddie Roach's come to my) are almost cut off at the knees by the horrible sound. I always thought it was the result of a producer's bad taste, now I'm not so sure. Very interesting. But the funny thing is, some of the mid-sixties Prestige dates really sound terrific - almost Blue Note quality sound. Take for instance, Freddie Roach' "Soul Book" (PR 7490, recorded June 13, 1966) or Sonny Stitt (& Don Patterson) "Night Crawler". I think these two dates were very well recorded (music-wise very nice too!). However, Soul Stream, I agree with you (and George Braith) that The Laughing Soul does not sound very well. Frankly, I am afraid I do not like the record music wise too much either, although I am a big Braith fan. I am curious if the other Prestige date of George Braith - "Musart" - is any better... Quote
Soul Stream Posted September 1, 2003 Author Report Posted September 1, 2003 Peter I agree about the sound of MANY Prestige organ dates being wonderful... The ones that come to mind immediately are all of the Patterson LPs, also the Patterson/Stitt stuff. Don Patterson's "Mellow Soul" on Prestige is about one of the best sounding organ dates EVER!!!!! So, there's certainly no hard and fast rule. I'm think more of stuff like "The Grass is Greener" by Grassella Oliphant, ect... BTW, Muzart sounds pretty nice. More along the lines of his BNs than "Laughing Soul" sound-wise. Quote
mikeweil Posted September 29, 2003 Report Posted September 29, 2003 Don Patterson's "Mellow Soul" on Prestige is about one of the best sounding organ dates EVER!!!!! If so, why are we still waiting for a CD reissue of this? It's on the top of my wish list! Quote
Jim Alfredson Posted September 29, 2003 Report Posted September 29, 2003 Good question. They should do a Don Patterson Mosaic. I have this on really beat up vinyl that I paid too much for but it was part of my short-lived fanaticism to own every vinyl LP Don did. Unfortunately I'm too poor for such things. Quote
Chuck Nessa Posted September 30, 2003 Report Posted September 30, 2003 Twenty-something years ago I talked with Rudy about the differences between BN, Prestige, Savoy, Verve, Impulse, CTI and Muse. This was before the beatification of BN. This occasion was my "audition", to see if RVG would accept me as a client. He was in semi-retirement. Willis Jackson's "Single Action" was the project that day. I continued my probes on subsequent sessions with him. He said Alfred had very strong opinions about the sound he wanted and he did everything possible to meet his demands. Alfred also showed up to supervise the lp mastering - no other producer did that. The rest of this post is "my interpretation" of other things he said. Weinstock (copying BN's move to RVG) wanted it cheap and fast, as did Savoy. Alfred wanted stronger drums than the other two. The producers seemed to get what they requested, unless it was something developed by one of the others. Rudy said he never tried out new equipment on Lion, but did first runs on Prestige dates 'cause Bob wouldn't notice/care. He took it to BN when he felt comfortable with it. Talking to Rudy about this stuff was like asking a lawyer about a client's files. At the end of one session when I asked what I owed him he said "I always handed Alfred a blank invoice and he filled it in. Here - fill yours out". I declined and handed the clipboard back to him. No way could I pay what I owed him. Quote
Christiern Posted September 30, 2003 Report Posted September 30, 2003 Thanks, Chuck, interesting story. As I have mentioned before, Rudy never tried to force a sound on me. He would set up, we (including the artists) would listen to a playback, and Rudy would make any changes that were suggested to him. Thus the final sound was a consensus. Of course, much can be done in the mastering process, so I am not surprised to hear that Alfred Lion also took part in that phase--we all should have. Quote
Chuck Nessa Posted September 30, 2003 Report Posted September 30, 2003 Chris, you were there 20+ years before me. You must have stories about Weinstock/Rudy. Please tell us. Quote
Jim Alfredson Posted September 30, 2003 Report Posted September 30, 2003 My question is who gets the Hammond C3/Leslie 21H setup after Rudy passes? A bit morbid I know, but it's a historic instrument. Something should be done to ensure that it winds up at the Smithsonian or something. Quote
Bright Moments Posted February 4, 2006 Report Posted February 4, 2006 Other than that his new CD "Boptronics" may be getting picked up for Japanese distribution. He'll know after the 15th of September. I'll keep everyone posted. was boptronics ever released? if not, why? if so, where can i find a copy? Quote
Christiern Posted February 4, 2006 Report Posted February 4, 2006 Show me an engineer who would not let inferior work be issued with his name on it and I'll show you Rudy. To think that Rudy would comply with an artist/producer's wishes if the result was a recording "almost cut off at the knees by the horrible sound," is, IMO, nonsense. I have said it before, I think the delayed beatification of Blue Note is 90% crap. Not to say that the label didn't issue many extraordinary recordings, but I think there is much myth and a dash of hero worship involved here. Rudy was a professional, a damn good one, who took pride in his work. What I am hearing here is that he would sacrifice quality and his good name as long as a tin-eared client paid him. Crap! Quote
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