Sopranos

[JSngry]

I've been watching I, Claudius on dvd. Livia, the wife of Augustus Caesar, is portrayed as a murderous schemer. I think it is no accident that Tony's mother was named Livia.

Check this out: http://www.stadiumwall.com/index.php?showt...458&st=520#

Any history buffs out there?

I've got this nailed I think.....

There were mentions of Pompeii and Mt Vesuvius all this year. David Chase was at the opening episode gala this year and made it a point to say it was the same day as the anniversary of the erruption of Mt Vesuvius.

When Tony was in Vegas...he played a machine that was Pompeii and there was a devil on it.

Tonight there was a quick scene at Artie's where Carmella was sitting in front of an errupting Mt Vesuvius, but was UPWIND of it.

In the 1st century AD, Pompeii was a city frozen in ashes after Mt Vesuvius errupted. People were just frozen in final embraces, or running.....it was a flash-fry. I think that was the ending.

Sticking with that theme and the fact that Carmella was upwind from the volcano, I feel she is alive. The person who lived to tell about Mt Vesuvius was named Pliny the Younger. Pliny was a Roman official who had the ability to charm people, yet was also ruthless. He was in charge of WASTE MANAGEMENT at one point.....his father died when he was a teen, and he was raised by HIS UNCLE, Pliny the Elder. Pliny was around for the overthrow of Nero while there were turf battles and he watched some of his friends die. Nero eventually died but Pliny came out stronger.

I believe Tony was based on Pliny the Younger and survived the chaos and craziness.

[JSngry]

All the interpretation you can eat: http://www.thechaselounge.net/showthread.php?t=1984

[Harold_Z]

I've been watching I, Claudius on dvd. Livia, the wife of Augustus Caesar, is portrayed as a murderous schemer. I think it is no accident that Tony's mother was named Livia.

Check this out: http://www.stadiumwall.com/index.php?showt...458&st=520#

Any history buffs out there?

I've got this nailed I think.....

There were mentions of Pompeii and Mt Vesuvius all this year. David Chase was at the opening episode gala this year and made it a point to say it was the same day as the anniversary of the erruption of Mt Vesuvius.

th

When Tony was in Vegas...he played a machine that was Pompeii and there was a devil on it.

Tonight there was a quick scene at Artie's where Carmella was sitting in front of an errupting Mt Vesuvius, but was UPWIND of it.

In the 1st century AD, Pompeii was a city frozen in ashes after Mt Vesuvius errupted. People were just frozen in final embraces, or running.....it was a flash-fry. I think that was the ending.

Sticking with that theme and the fact that Carmella was upwind from the volcano, I feel she is alive. The person who lived to tell about Mt Vesuvius was named Pliny the Younger. Pliny was a Roman official who had the ability to charm people, yet was also ruthless. He was in charge of WASTE MANAGEMENT at one point.....his father died when he was a teen, and he was raised by HIS UNCLE, Pliny the Elder. Pliny was around for the overthrow of Nero while there were turf battles and he watched some of his friends die. Nero eventually died but Pliny came out stronger.

I believe Tony was based on Pliny the Younger and survived the chaos and craziness.

Carmella upwind from the volcano? OFF THE WALL went off the wall with that one. I like this part of the post right under the one above.

Nothing happened in the end-that's the point. A simple meal with the family, yet everywhere he goes there's always the possibility that someone in the crowd is there to kill him, arrest him etc-even when nothing happens. Life of a mobster-you never know what will happen, usually nothing does.

These guys who say this happened - that happened - Tony got whacked - Paulie double crossed Tony etcetc are all wet. They don't get it. IF IT ISN'T IN THE SCRIPT IT DOESN'T EXIST. All there is to the show is in the script that is finally shot.

[Harold_Z]

All the interpretation you can eat: http://www.thechaselounge.net/showthread.php?t=1984

Thanks Jim - it looks like an intersting site for a Sopranos junkie..I'l be delving into it.

[ValerieB]

"The Sopranos" goes dark

David Chase gives fans the finale they deserve -- one they can

argue about

for years to come.

By Heather Havrilesky

June 11, 2007 | For his final trick, "Sopranos" writer/creator

David Chase

made Tony Soprano disappear without fanfare. In what may go down

as the most

heart-stopping final scene of a drama series in the history of

television,

Tony walked into a restaurant, sat down at a booth, ate a few

onion rings,

and ... that was it. Roll credits.

As the screen went black in the middle of a line from the song

"Don't Stop

Believin'" by Journey, it was hard not to wonder, Is Chase

brilliant for so

thoroughly subverting our expectations, or ... is he just an

asshole?

Reading the predictions leading up to this final episode, it was

easy enough

to see why Chase might want to mess with our heads. There were

the expected

ones: Tony would get killed, go to prison, go into witness

protection and

rat out the New York family. But then there were the theories

that tied

together every loose end from every episode into one big tangled

mess: The

Russian mobster from Pine Barrens was going to return, finally,

seeking

revenge! A.J. was going to kill his own father! Adriana secretly

survived

and was going to come out of hiding! Dr. Melfi's shrink and

colleague,

Elliott Kupferberg, would be revealed as the secret boss of Phil

Leotardo!

Everyone would die in a massive terrorist explosion!

If we got sick of hearing about other people's speculations on

how "The

Sopranos" would end in just one week, imagine how Chase has been

feeling for

the past three or four years. Creating a cultural phenomenon

this huge is an

experience that can change a sensitive soul, after all, and make

him act out

against his fans. Look at J.D. Salinger. His books were

obscenely popular,

but no one understood! They were all jackasses, as far as he was

concerned.

Was Sunday night's finale Chase's way of telling us all to fuck

right off?

If so, it was fitting that the big F.U. should come from the

mouth of the

show's least respectable character, self-pitying, idiot-savant

A.J., who

explodes in an angry outburst after Bobby's funeral. Disgusted

with the idle

Oscar-related small talk at his table, he rages, "You people are

fucked.

You're living in a fucking dream!" Then he snipes that Americans

distract

themselves from their country's atrocious acts by "watching

these jack-off

fantasies on TV."

Later, after A.J. has been coaxed out of following his

convictions into the

military and to Afghanistan, and led into temptation by his

parents with a

new BMW and the promise of a cushy job working on -- what else?

-- some

crappy film cobbled together by a bunch of halfwits, he sits on

the couch

with his high school girlfriend, snickering at viral videos of

rappin' Karl

Rove and Bush dancing. There we are, America! Sending each other

YouTube

videos, chuckling at "The Daily Show," instead of rioting in the

streets.

Crisis of conscience narrowly averted!

Even so, Tony may not have eaten lead, but he didn't exactly get

off easy in

his final days on-screen. Chase turned up the flame on his

boiling pot until

we were all sweating, showing us how nasty Tony could be, making

us hate

ourselves for ever caring about him, and demonstrating how

miserable things

could get for Tony if his luck didn't hold. In these last few

hours, Chase

crafted each episode into a dense, claustrophobic, melancholy

work of art,

each one more solemn and heartbreaking than the last.

But on Sunday night, he returned to the show's original twisted

tragicomic

roots: A.J. watches in awe and disbelief as his car goes up in

flames

because he parked too close to a patch of dry leaves; Phil

Leotardo is shot,

his head then crushed under the wheel of his own car

(Grandbabies waving

bye-bye from the back seat! Bystanders vomiting!), in a scene so

rich and

silly it felt like "The Sopranos" parodying itself; Tony and

Carmela speak

to A.J.'s shrink and Tony slips easily into a discussion of how

incredibly

cruel his mother was to him. We can see the next few decades

flash before

Carmela's eyes: This is Tony's never-ending sob story, and it

doesn't matter

who's listening.

As we've been reminded all season, Tony is all about Tony, no

matter whom he

pretends to be protecting. He's not necessarily a complete

sociopath. He's

just your average self-interested, smug American. What was Steve

Perry

singing in that final scene?

Working hard to get my fill,

Everybody wants a thrill

Payin' anything to roll the dice,

Just one more time

Some will win, some will lose

Some were born to sing the blues

Oh, the movie never ends

It goes on and on and on and on

(Chase really does have the last laugh, here, making us pick

apart lyrics to

a Journey song, for Christsakes.)

The comedy didn't begin and end with Tony, though. One of the

best lines of

the night came from darling daughter Meadow, explaining to Tony

why she

decided to give up on med school in order to pursue a career in

law instead:

Meadow: You know what really turned me? Seeing the way Italians

are treated.

It's like Mom says. And if we can have our rights trampled like

that,

imagine what it's like for recent arrivals.

Tony: Well...

Meadow: If I hadn't seen you dragged away all those times by the

FBI, then

I'd probably be a boring suburban doctor.

Of course we know that Tony wishes Meadow were a boring suburban

doctor, but

the look of suppressed disbelief on his face goes beyond that.

It's almost

like he wants to say, "Med, let's get real, here. I am a

criminal."

He says nothing, but it's official: Meadow's denial is as

complete as her

mother's -- and her fate matches her mother's fate as well.

And speaking of matching fates, Detective Harris is made out to

look like

Tony's long lost twin, working long hours, yelling at his wife,

then

sleeping with a co-worker, presumably the agent in Brooklyn who

told him

where Leotardo was hiding. When Harris hears that Leotardo has

been shot, he

cheers. The home team pulls off another win! There is no moral

high ground

here -- not among FBI agents, or among therapists. Everyone is

out for

themselves.

Of course, some of these are scenes we've seen before: Tony sits

next to an

unconscious Sil in the hospital, silently, just as he's done

with so many of

his guys. Paulie is reluctant to take a top job because he's

superstitious,

since the others who've filled that post have died before him.

But Tony

wants him to do it, so he agrees, a grim look darkening his face

after he's

surrendered to Tony's wishes. It's not just Tony who's trapped

in this life

for good.

And then, we see where it all leads: Tony finally takes a trip

to see Uncle

Junior, who doesn't even recognize him. When Tony reminds June

that he once

ran the North Jersey mob with Tony's father, the old man replies

apathetically, "That's nice." As Tony strides away, like he

can't get out

fast enough, we recognize that look on his face: It's all a big

nothing.

June may as well have told him, "This thing of ours, it doesn't

amount to

shit in the end, so you'd better enjoy yourself while you can."

Afterward, as Carmela and A.J. settle into the booth with him,

we can see

that Tony once again feels his luck is changing. In response to

A.J.'s

premature complaints about his new job, Tony tries to joke

around to keep

from busting his jaw.

Tony: It's an entry-level job. Now buck up!

A.J.: Focus on the good times.

Tony: Don't be sarcastic.

A.J.: Isn't that what you said one time? Try to remember the

times that were

good?

Tony: I did?

A.J.: Yeah.

Tony: Well, it's true, I guess.

Even as Tony agrees, once again, that each day is a gift, this

last scene

may have been a gag gift sent special delivery to the loyal

"Sopranos"

audience. Chase played us like a grand piano, dragging out every

suspenseful

trick and visual reference in the book. Of course we thought

Tony and his

family were going to die in a hail of gunfire. There was the

surly-looking

guy, glancing at Tony, slipping into the bathroom, sure to

emerge seconds

later with a gun, "Godfather"-style. There was the blasting

music, the

close-up on Meadow's clutch as she tried in vain to parallel

park her stupid

car, over and over again, and then almost got run over crossing

the street.

This was it! Something big was going to happen!

But does Chase really want to go out like that, subverting a few

decades of

mob clichés? When "The Sopranos" has always transcended its

genre with

smart, lovely moments that went to the heart of suburban

American angst, was

it really fair to end in a flurry of inside jokes and a great

big head fake?

Instead of taking Tony down out of karmic retribution, Chase got

his karmic

revenge on us for caring too much about this "jack-off fantasy

on TV" in the

first place.

And yet ... is it possible that we're witnessing Tony's last

moment alive?

What did Bobby say to him on the boat, in the first episode of

this last

run? "You probably don't even hear it when it happens, right?"

Maybe the

abrupt ending is Tony getting shot, without even realizing it?

That's probably wishful thinking, like hoping that there really

is a Santa

Claus simply because it would make the holidays much more

interesting. We've

never seen things from Tony's perspective, so why would we start

now? And

wouldn't we at least know who killed him?

No. Tony's story simply ended abruptly. Since we didn't have a

chance to say

it before, we'll say it now: Goodbye, Tony. Looks like you won't

go to

prison (not yet, anyway), and you won't rat, and you won't

finally get your

comeuppance, dying in a bloody heap. You'll be immortalized

eating onion

rings, chuckling, focusing on the good times.

Just like the rest of us. Going to hell in a red leather booth,

with Journey

playing in the background.

[ValerieB]

The Last Supper

http://www.zagat.com/buzz/Detail.aspx?SCID=34&BLGID=3549

[sheldonm]

Well...I'm still going to miss it. In that sense I'm glad that the series was open ended. I was just disappointed in the overall quality of the show - and that's been for quite a while, 'tho for me, even a bad Sopranos is entertaining.

As an aside - the show was derailed back when Nancy Marchand died. I think Chase had a story ark that was based to a large extent on that character. Every thing had to be rethought and Chase lost some enthusiasm at that point.

I've been watching I, Claudius on dvd. Livia, the wife of Augustus Caesar, is portrayed as a murderous schemer. I think it is no accident that Tony's mother was named Livia.

I too will miss the show.

On the death of Marchand, that may indeed be the case.

Maybe Chase really never wanted to go much beyond the twisted relationship between Tony and his mother.

I always thought that part was mis-casted though. Marchand was more like an Edith Bunker than an Italian wife and mother.

...what would you know about being Italian???

[Harold_Z]

The Last Supper

http://www.zagat.com/buzz/Detail.aspx?SCID=34&BLGID=3549

Holsten's is five minutes from where I live and every bit as good as the zagat article above says. My wife and I go there frequently, usually for ice cream (home made).

Now we probably won't be able get in the door without standing on line.

[Van Basten II]

What i enjoyed from that series was that you always have to expect the unexpected and that is what the ending delivered.

Everybody was predicting some kind of blood bath involving different characters. Nobody thought about the way it actually ended.

My feeling is that the frustration from the viewers is the fact that they were expecting a closure and some kind of moral in an amoral world.

[MoGrubb]

I just started watching Sopranos in syndication on A&E, great show!!

[The downside is I don't know what season it is. A&E started running two

back to back episodes from scratch last Jan. 10.]

Edited June 14, 2007 by MoGrubb

[sal]

I just started watching Sopranos in syndication on A&E, great show!!

[The downside is I don't know what season it is. A&E started running two

back to back episodes from scratch last Jan. 10.]

While this is definitely better than not watching it at all, I'd highly recommend that if you enjoy the show, that you seek them out on DVD. A&E has edited the shit out of the episodes, and what you are seeing on A&E is really not the way they are meant to be seen.

[MoGrubb]

I just started watching Sopranos in syndication on A&E, great show!!

[The downside is I don't know what season it is. A&E started running two

back to back episodes from scratch last Jan. 10.]

While this is definitely better than not watching it at all, I'd highly recommend that if you enjoy the show, that you seek them out on DVD. A&E has edited the shit out of the episodes, and what you are seeing on A&E is really not the way they are meant to be seen.

I thought some of the scenes ended or started slightly abrupt, or maybe not smooth transitions. And, the back to back episodes lasted just a little less than one and half hours; even taking into account advertising, that's a little short.

All in all it was still damn good.

Edited June 14, 2007 by MoGrubb

[catesta]

I just started watching Sopranos in syndication on A&E, great show!!

[The downside is I don't know what season it is. A&E started running two

back to back episodes from scratch last Jan. 10.]

While this is definitely better than not watching it at all, I'd highly recommend that if you enjoy the show, that you seek them out on DVD. A&E has edited the shit out of the episodes, and what you are seeing on A&E is really not the way they are meant to be seen.

I definitely agree with you.

I caught part of an episode on A&E last night and listening to Paulie argue with Ralph using the word "freakin" just doesn't cut it. Plus the constant breaks in the middle of scenes is annoying. That was a great season though.

[Guest donald petersen]

YOU FREAKIN' BLOODSUCKER!!!

[sal]

The edited swears are horrible, and even worse is the complete ommission of the sudden violence and the sex scenes. Not only are they fun to watch, but they add lots of dramatic impact to the story.

[jlhoots]

The edited swears are horrible, and even worse is the complete ommission of the sudden violence and the sex scenes. Not only are they fun to watch, but they add lots of dramatic impact to the story.

As usual, Sal is correct.

[ghost of miles]

Geoffrey O'Brien on The Sopranos in the new NY Review of Books:

A Northern New Jersey of the Mind

[ejp626]

The edited swears are horrible, and even worse is the complete ommission of the sudden violence and the sex scenes. Not only are they fun to watch, but they add lots of dramatic impact to the story.

As usual, Sal is correct.

Somewhere (probably YouTube) they have the ultimate edited Sopranos, no swearing, no sex, no violence (overt or implied), etc. I think each episode lasts 3 minutes.

Don't know what it is, but I just don't like Mob-related movies or TV. Sopranos did nothing for me. Ultimately, despite the violent downfall of many of the characters, these TV/movies celebrate thugs and promote violence as a way of getting ahead. I just can't get down with that, I guess.

[ghost of miles]

No season 4 thread here, since it aired before the mass migration to this board from the old Blue Note forum, but I have to say this figure from Tony's dream at the end of "Calling All Cars" is one of the most haunting images I've ever encountered in a television show:

[ghost of miles]

I think Members Only Guy is a red herring and that this fellow emerged from the men's room (where he'd gone to wash his balls in ice water first) to shoot Tony. 

[ghost of miles]

Can't wait to see this.  Out in theaters October 1 and streaming all that month on HBO Max as well:

 

[JSngry]

Sorry, but the entertainment appeal of Thugocracy has dimmed for me. Used to be a fun fantasy...but fantasy come true is nightmare, more often than not.

[Teasing the Korean]

2 hours ago, ghost of miles said:

Can't wait to see this.  Out in theaters October 1 and streaming all that month on HBO Max as well:

Yeah, I'm looking forward to this also!

[Teasing the Korean]

We watched Many Saints of Newark last night.  It was good - I don't know how good it would be as a standalone film, but if you liked the Sopranos, you will like it.  

No spoilers, but the film focused more on Christopher's father than it did Tony.  

Edited October 2, 2021 by Teasing the Korean

[ghost of miles]

NY Times article on The Sopranos' enduring (and newfound) appeal:

Why Is Every Young Person In America Watching The Sopranos?