The Avant Garde

[Late]

I'd say that UMS is (regardless of what you'll say/have with Corbett) a pretty great hope for future reissues in this music. Balancing criticisms and positive elements, it's like the RVG series of European Free Improv.

I agree. Though I wish they'd lay off the Brötz and Bennink for a while. I mean, I like the guys, but bring on more Rüdiger Carl and ... [names that I'm not even familiar with]. Carl's Zwei Quintette, originally on FMP, is an unusual recording that would be a welcome addition to the Unheard series. My one copy literally and actually melted. I haven't heard it now for 12 years. I remember being really excited about it then. I wonder how it would strike me now.

As for Mangelsdorff — if you don't already have his 1970 live in Tokyo date entitled Diggin' (on Enja), pick it up! I believe it's still in print. A truly wonderful live session with Heinz Sauer. It's one of those recordings that demands patience, and then — bang! — once you get in, you're in love.

Edited March 9, 2007 by Late

[sidewinder]

Has anyone read the Harriott book? I

Yep, I have the book 'Fire In His Soul' by Alan Robertson. It is essential reading.

According to the book, Mingus paid a visit to Harriott as he was literally on his death bed in a Southampton hospital. Apparently he turned up during the night out of visiting hours and had to be turned away. Left a message for Harriott though.

It's also on record that Mingus had huge respect for Harry Beckett, with whom he'd recorded a soundtrack album back in the early 1960s. Harry usually throws in some Mingus material in his live shows to this day.

Edited March 9, 2007 by sidewinder

[king ubu]

if you want to hear Mangelsdorff's band *really* tearing it up, in a live-recorded, free flow set, get this one:

enja CD 2006-2

Albert Mangelsdorff tb

Heinz Sauer ts

Günther Lenz b

Ralf Hübner dr

titles:

1 Swing & Swing

2 Open Space

3 Mahüsale

4 Triple Trip

Producer: Horst Weber

originally produced for three blind mice in Tokyo

Supervisor: Takeshi 'Tee' Fujii

Engineer: Yoshihiko Kannari

Rec. Date: February 15th, 1971

Location: DUG, Tokyo

Cover Photos: Hozumi Nakadaira

Cover Design: Ben Nishizawa

© & (p) 1972 enja records horst weber gmbh

source of info: http://jazzrecords.com/enja/2006.htm

It seems to be available still... I bought my copy a couple of months ago! By this time, the group had done away with all the fun structures (of any kind, melodical, rhythmical, how a song is built up etc) that makes their early two albums (Tension & Now Jazz Ramwong) so great. They're off into a different territory, but in my opinion, this disc is just as great!

[Alexander Hawkins]

Rutherford, too--he was with the Westbrook camp (remarkably, granted his penchant for total and nigh-total abstraction in later years).

Didn't know that about PR. In a similar vein, I always find it remarkable to hear Phil Minton's stuff with Westbrook!

[couw]

if you want to hear Mangelsdorff's band *really* tearing it up, in a live-recorded, free flow set, get this one:

Another interesting tidbit that this album was released in the GDR as well at the time, just like Ramwong and (One) Tension. Mangelsdorff held various tours through the GDR.

[ep1str0phy]

Rutherford, too--he was with the Westbrook camp (remarkably, granted his penchant for total and nigh-total abstraction in later years).

Didn't know that about PR. In a similar vein, I always find it remarkable to hear Phil Minton's stuff with Westbrook!

I heard him play in Oakland a few months back (really unlikely that you'd see one of the masters of European improv playing in a garage in California, but we were lucky that day... class act, and a total gentleman), and it really drives the point home. To know who came out of those groups--John Surman, Mike Osborne, Harry Miller, Nisar Ahmed Khan, Kenny Wheeler, Barre Phillips, Harry Beckett--what a time it must have been to musically grow up in the UK!

Edited March 9, 2007 by ep1str0phy

[sidewinder]

I heard him play in Oakland a few months back (really unlikely that you'd see one of the masters of European improv playing in a garage in California, but we were lucky that day... class act, and a total gentleman), and it really drives the point home. To know who came out of those groups--John Surman, Mike Osborne, Harry Miller, Nisar Ahmed Khan, Kenny Wheeler, Barre Phillips, Harry Beckett--what a time it must have been to musically grow up in the UK!

A lot of the credit for that must go to 'catalysts' like Mike Westbrook and John Stevens - and sympathetic venues of the time such as Ronnie's 'Old Place' in Gerrard St and the Little Theatre Club. Plus the incubator role of the 50s/60s art schools !

[AllenLowe]

well, it is true, there may be a distinction between "free" and the avant garde, especially per Hodeir, but I do think some of their aims were the same. But as Larry implied, there tended to be a gap in understanding and sympathy between the more "technically"minded (for want of a better word) modern composer-types and the more instinctive (also for want of a better word) players. I always think of Johnny Carisi, who could write so beautifully and whose work is full of beautiful dissonances, and who was really an "educated" composer and "rules" modernist with a great deal of "freedom" in his work - he spent an afternoon telling me how much he hated the "free" jazz players (he also hated minimalists) -

[7/4]

I always think of Johnny Carisi, who could write so beautifully and whose work is full of beautiful dissonances, and who was really an "educated" composer and "rules" modernist with a great deal of "freedom" in his work - he spent an afternoon telling me how much he hated the "free" jazz players (he also hated minimalists) -

Minimalist composers like Phillip Glass or minimalist jazz musicians? The minimalist jazz musicians played little and recorded even less so they didn't much press.

[AllenLowe]

he was thinking of composers like Glass -

[clifford_thornton]

Rutherford, too--he was with the Westbrook camp (remarkably, granted his penchant for total and nigh-total abstraction in later years).

Didn't know that about PR. In a similar vein, I always find it remarkable to hear Phil Minton's stuff with Westbrook!

Yeah, and Rutherford was also in the Charlie Watts big band and played some rock gigs, though it's not what I usually associate with him. But sure, he was open - they all were. I guess my point was, though, that free music and Britjazz (regardless of cross-pollination) do have different aesthetic places of reference. Cross-pollination and bridge-building are hugely important things. You can't have a music without them.