The Avant Garde

[Late]

Every country's musicians seem to bring a different flavor, if even only slightly different, to any given stream of improvised music. When that stream is "bebop," the results are often derivative (how could they not be?), but when that stream is the "avant garde," I hear more diversity in expression.

It's not important to me to determine where the "avant garde" started in improvised music, but I do appreciate hearing how, at different locations across the globe, this particular stream or branch of the music evolved at different speeds and with different emphases. The body of "free" work that comes out of America is well-documented, as is the American ex-pat scene in Paris. For this thread I'd like to talk about "free" music in countries other than America. Additionally, before "free" became just another tossed off phrase — meaning, when there still was some risk to play "free" — I think it would be interesting to discuss how musicians in different countries were approaching how they might play this kind of music.

From around 1965 to 1973, there seems to be a noticeable loosening of the boundaries of what jazz (or simply "improvised music") could be. I'm sure this can be attributed to any number of phenomena, but I've always felt that Ornette's Golden Circle concert played a significant role in this "loosening" — at least in Europe.

I've listened to "free" work, from the time frame given above, from Poland, Germany, The Netherlands, South Africa, and, just recently, France. François Tusque's Le Nouveau Jazz has been an ear-opener for me, and not simply because you get to hear Barney Wilen tear shit up. Now I'd like to hear Jouck Minor and Bernard Vitet (when he started leaning toward this kind of music).

What non-American pioneers of "free" music do you admire? What albums deserve more discussion and exposure?

[AllenLowe]

Andre Hodeir was writing some very interesting and "outside" music early on; he was also one of the first to use electronics -

Edited March 8, 2007 by AllenLowe

[Larry Kart]

Just off the top of my head, Gunter Hampel's albums "The Eighth of July, 1969" and "Wergo Jazz" -- with Willem Breuker, Braxton, Argen Gortner, Steve McCall, Jeanne Lee and others -- struck me at the time (1969, natch) as pretty significant. It seemed clear to me for one thing that Breuker (was one of these his recorded debut?) had something new, valid, and "European" to say.

[Larry Kart]

No, it wasn't Breuker's recorded debut:

http://www.xs4all.nl/~wbk/disco59-69_WB.html

And it's Arjen Gortner, not Argen Gortner.

[J.A.W.]

No, it wasn't Breuker's recorded debut:

http://www.xs4all.nl/~wbk/disco59-69_WB.html

And it's Arjen Gortner, not Argen Gortner.

Actually, it's Arjen Gorter.

[Larry Kart]

GUNTER HAMPEL GROUP + JEANNE LEE

Gunter Hampel (bcl,vib,fl), Willem Breuker (cl,bcl,ss,as,ts), Arjen Gorter (b,harmonium on 1), Pierre Courbois (dm,perc), Jeanne Lee (voc)

Soest, April 2, 1968

Leoni Antoinette - 1 Wergo WER 80001

O, Western wind (J. Lee) -

The capacity of this room (collect.- Robert Lax) -

The four elements: water/air/fire/earth(G. Hampel - R. Lax)-

Lazy Afternoon (collect - John LaTouche)

GUNTER HAMPEL: The 8th of July 1969

Anthony Braxton (as,ss,cbcl), Willem Breuker (ss,as,ts,bcl), Gunter Hampel (bcl,vib,p), Arjen Gorter (b,elb on 1), Steve McCall (dm), Jeanne Lee (voc).

Nederhorst, July 8, 1969

We move (G. Hampel) -1 Birth NJ 001, CD 001

We move (take 1)-1 - -

We move (take 2)-2 - -

Morning song - -

Crepuscule (GH) - -

The 8th of July 1969 (GH)-vib solo - -

The 8th of July 1969 (take 1)-vib solo -

Gib mir noch ein Spiegelei mit Schinken

(WB - Evan Parker) ICP 008

Breuker as Breuker probably can be heard on this date (which I don't know):

GUNTER HAMPEL: Assemblage

Gunter Hampel (bcl,vib,ss,fl), Willem Breuker (ss,as,ts,bs,cl,bcl), Piet-Hein Veening (b), Pierre Courbois (dm).

Baarn, Dec. 21, 1966

Assemblage (G.Hampel) ESP 1042 CD 1042-2

Heroicredolphysiognomystery (GH) -

Make love not war to everybody (GH) -

Love that title BTW -- "Make love not war to everybody." Wonder if it was meant to be ironic?

[7/4]

Karyobin: are the imaginary birds said to live in paradise

Spontaneous Music Ensemble

Kenny Wheeler, trumpet, flugelhorn

Evan Parker, soprano saxophone

Derek Bailey, electric guitar

Dave Holland, bass, John Stevens, drums.

February 1968

[brownie]

In France, musicians were playing out from around the mid-sixties. Early practicioners included Michel Portal, Barney Wilen, Jean-Louis Chautemps, Henri Texier, Jean-François Jenny-Clark, Jacques Thollot, Aldo Romano.

Pianist François Tusques had a band around that time that included Bernard Vitet on trumpet, François Janneau and Portal on reeds, bass player Beb Guerin, etc...

The arrival in France of Cecil Taylor, Marion Brown, Sonny Murray, the Art Ensemble, Anthony Braxton, Leo Smith, Jeanne Lee, Steve McCall and others helped as stimulants to the French players.

[clifford_thornton]

I think every country has something interesting to offer in terms of free jazz. There hasn't been a ton of scholarship from English-language writers on European improvisation after 1965; Heffley's book Northern Sun Southern Moon is a start, but contains a lot of errors and missed connections.

The early Gunter Hampel records are pretty great.

Lots of stuff to dig on, though...

[clifford_thornton]

From around 1965 to 1973, there seems to be a noticeable loosening of the boundaries of what jazz (or simply "improvised music") could be. I'm sure this can be attributed to any number of phenomena, but I've always felt that Ornette's Golden Circle concert played a significant role in this "loosening" — at least in Europe.

The New York Contemporary Five, the Cecil Taylor trio and the Albert Ayler quartet all arrived on the Scandinavian scene earlier than Ornette. Ayler's music was particularly influential on Danish and Swedish musicians like Hugh Steinmetz, Bernt Rosengren and Frippe Nordstrom.

Archie Shepp came back with his two-trombones group in 1967, visiting Holland, Germany, the UK and France. They carried a particularly strong influence in Holland, apparent in Hans Dulfer's Heavy Soul quartet with Willem van Manen, Maarten Altena and Han Bennink (Jazz in Paradiso, HSM 1501, 1969).

More thoughts later...

[Late]

I realize that the brackets of 1965-1973 are essentially arbitrary. And it's indeed the case that, a considerable three years earlier, Cecil Taylor must have completely resurfaced the sonic landscape at the Cafe Montmartre with that trio. And, yes, Steinmetz's playing owes a huge debt to Cherry and Ayler. I just recently picked up his Nu!, and I like it. Even though it wears its influence on its sleeve, it's still authentic music.

When do you all hear the American influence dropping off, if not completely then at least some, while still retaining a fundamental "jazz" quality?

I've always held that the Tom Prehn Kvartet record that Atavistic reissued was fairly un-American. It's one to pick up.

I haven't heard enough Hampel. I've listened to the work he did with Marion Brown and like it, but wonder if the stuff without Brown is noticeably different. Some of the Hampel/Brown stuff with Jeanne Lee — I usually love her singing, but I can't get with a track like "You Did It" at all.

Allen — good point about Hodeir. Some of his "atonal" writing (that often employed a swing beat) was mid-50's, well before the time period I'm thinking of. For some reason, however, I wouldn't necessarily call that "free" — at least what I've heard. It reminds me of The Jazz Composer's Workshop stuff of Teo Macero and Mingus, which, to my knowledge, was commonly through-composed. It does sound "free" at times, I suppose. At any rate, I like his music and it's ultimately not much use to try to decide if it's "free" or "not free." (I had to pay for all the Hodeir discs I own! )

Edited March 8, 2007 by Late

[Larry Kart]

Allen — good point about Hodeir. Some of his "atonal" writing (that often employed a swing beat) was mid-50's, well before the time period I'm thinking of. For some reason, however, I wouldn't necessarily call that "free" — at least what I've heard. It reminds me of The Jazz Composer's Workshop stuff of Teo Macero and Mingus, which, to my knowledge, was commonly through-composed. It does sound "free" at times, I suppose. At any rate, I like his music and it's ultimately not much use to try to decide if it's "free" or "not free." (I had to pay for all the Hodeir discs I own! )

Hodeir loathed "free jazz" in any and all of its manifestations, at least at the time -- and I'd bet he still does. See his book "The World of Jazz" (though his use of multiple personae there can make it tricky to sort things out). Even more so, there was an issue of Les Cahiers du Jazz that I no longer have in which there was a long roundtable discussion about the jazz avant-garde that involved Hodeir and a bunch of other French jazz critic-intellectual types. The others were basically sympathetic to Ornette, Coltrane, Ayler, Cecil, et al. Though my French is virtually non-existent, it was clear that Hodier's stance was adamantly, even mockingly, in opposition to all this.

[clifford_thornton]

When do you all hear the American influence dropping off, if not completely then at least some, while still retaining a fundamental "jazz" quality?

I haven't heard enough Hampel. I've listened to the work he did with Marion Brown and like it, but wonder if the stuff without Brown is noticeably different. Some of the Hampel/Brown stuff with Jeanne Lee — I usually love her singing, but I can't get with a track like "You Did It" at all.

Your first point above I can't really get with. To an extent, life experience will differ if you're from the Chicago ghetto or a working-class German suburb a/o attended the conservatory. That said, I tend to listen to this music with the mindset that it's "Just Music" (to reference Alfred Harth's group). I differentiate more between players and their approaches than whether the cat is a brother or from near the Arctic Circle.

You take "Britjazz" for one. Sure, it came into its own in the late '60s, so to speak, but "coming into its own" was a result of combining the influences of American and South African jazz and English classical music (not talking British free improv here, btw) - and then adding a healthy dose of personality in each separate case. Finding the "voice" is not always so much about getting away from influence as finding oneself, however many different strains that may take (or take from).

Re: Hampel vis. Brown: Yes and no. If you can't get with "You Did It," try "The Capacity of This Room..."

Edit to say: even better, "Chicken With Its Head Cut Off." Yikes...

Edited March 8, 2007 by clifford_thornton

[couw]

interestingly, the "free" jazz scene in the former GDR was well represented in main stream, i.e. state controlled media like radio and recordings. From the mid 60s on, several small and big groups developed their ideas in relative isolation from the outside. There were occasional visits and guest appearances by the likes of Willem Breuker and various players from West Germany.

Joachim Kühn has stated somewhere I can't find now that Cecil was among his main influences. Kühn certainly was among the main proponents of the early GDR free jazz scene until his move to the west already in 1966. Ernst Ludwig (Lute) Petrowsky is another early bird on the scene who then continued to appear on many of the free jazz albums issued. His influences I would say are more to be found in Poland with guys like Ptaszyn Wroblewski and Zbigniew Namyslowski.

I can't recall all the details, but I believe that for a period of time Hannes Zerbe was in artistic charge of the Jazz section of the state controlled Amiga label and he certainly was not opposed to freeer outings as his own Blech Band and piano/tuba recordings testify. It may have all been a bit clicquish, with the same names popping up over and again, but then the scene was small and freedom was still state controlled freedom and not equal across the nation.

[ep1str0phy]

I think every country has something interesting to offer in terms of free jazz. There hasn't been a ton of scholarship from English-language writers on European improvisation after 1965; Heffley's book Northern Sun Southern Moon is a start, but contains a lot of errors and missed connections.

Yeah, reading that one right now. It's as muh a sociological study as it is a musicology book, and I sometimes feel as if the more concrete theoretical observations are just shoehorned into the text. You can deal with free music on manifold political and social levels, but--more often than not--you're left describing the "feel" of the sound in the same set of nebulous adjectives and italicized terminology. It's definitely one of the most comprehensive English language texts we have right now.

The micro-history of European Free Improvisation is a piece unto itself--and we'll deal with American influences all we like, but--in the long run--it's the same set of influences that the contemporary US folks have been grappling with (barring, of course, art music reference points--e.g., Schoenberg--that the mainstream of American improvisation only touches in passing). I think the similarities are there, but not through the usual avenues--i.e., it isn't so much a matter of divining influences as much as drawing parallels.

There's an involved case, for example, in the relationship between the AACM and the European schools; despite the obvious personal discord (George Lewis's Gittin' to Know Y'all essay is an intelligent, if aggravated, study in free musical culture clash, despite the obvious exceptions to the rule--Lewis and, most spectacularly, Anthony Braxton among them), there's something to be said for the expanded rhetoric and ideologies of the Americans post-Civil Rights/co-cultural nationalism and the practically concurrent, dyed-in-the-wool revolutionism of the Brits, Dutch, Germans (West and East), etc. It's most interesting when you take into account that the AACM, BAG, CBA (and their ilk) didn't really interact with the Europeans that much over the period that Late sets apart. Like Clifford suggests, it comes down to "music"--and it will come down to "politics" to, as there's something going on pretty much everywhere in the late-60's/early-70's (and it's not just an American thang).

Among the dozens and dozens of specific groups that bear notice--there's the South African Blue Note axis (w/regard to which we've discussed, at length, elsewhere) and the Japanese free improv guys (Abe, Takayanagi...)--contemporary to the "major" European experiments. On the latter note (and Clifford can add to this, as I know he's coming down the same track)--there's been a "little glut" of reissues lately in the way of historical Japanese free improv albums (expensive, but from what I've heard--particularly Takayanagi's Eclipse, from what seems to be the upteenth improv label/organization called "Iskra"--it's all extremely prescient and sometimes shocking).

Edited March 8, 2007 by ep1str0phy

[sidewinder]

Joe Harriott was doing his 'free form' experiments in the UK around 1960/61, recording 'Free Form' and 'Abstract' in the group with Shake Keane, Pat Smythe, Colleridge Goode and Bobby Orr/Phil Seamen but sadly he was 10+ years ahead of his time and promptly got ignored over here.

Edited March 8, 2007 by sidewinder

[ep1str0phy]

Has anyone read the Harriott book? I think history is starting to hip to him (more than a few modern reads are figuring him into the UK equation). As far as American recognition (of any sort)--IIRC, Mingus wanted Harriott for his group (?)--that's going somewhere (never materialized, apparently).

[Alexander Hawkins]

Has anyone read the Harriott book? I think history is starting to hip to him (more than a few modern reads are figuring him into the UK equation). As far as American recognition (of any sort)--IIRC, Mingus wanted Harriott for his group (?)--that's going somewhere (never materialized, apparently).

Mingus was also into Harry Beckett's stuff.

CT - I'm not sure I would be able to distinguish 'Britjazz' from the improv scene, especially at this stage...Evan Parker? Sure - maybe the MIC recordings (on which tack, also Iskra 1903)...but I don't know...But look at all the SME (great call on Karyobin), early Oxley, etc. records...

Some historically fascinating recordings from the UK - The Joseph Holbrooke Trio...Miles' Mode!!!

I think the Brotzmann FMPs would have to figure in this discussion too.

[Late]

When do you all hear the American influence dropping off, if not completely then at least some, while still retaining a fundamental "jazz" quality?

Your first point above I can't really get with. ... That said, I tend to listen to this music with the mindset that it's "Just Music" ...

I think I listen to music the same way you do. It is, after all, inescapably just "music" -- and thank God for that. To clarify (I hope), I'll just say that I find it interesting to listen for when musicians shed their most pronounced influences. Generally speaking, at least in this music called jazz, those influences are American.

[ep1str0phy]

Has anyone read the Harriott book? I think history is starting to hip to him (more than a few modern reads are figuring him into the UK equation). As far as American recognition (of any sort)--IIRC, Mingus wanted Harriott for his group (?)--that's going somewhere (never materialized, apparently).

Mingus was also into Harry Beckett's stuff.

CT - I'm not sure I would be able to distinguish 'Britjazz' from the improv scene, especially at this stage...Evan Parker? Sure - maybe the MIC recordings (on which tack, also Iskra 1903)...but I don't know...But look at all the SME (great call on Karyobin), early Oxley, etc. records...

Some historically fascinating recordings from the UK - The Joseph Holbrooke Trio...Miles' Mode!!!

I think the Brotzmann FMPs would have to figure in this discussion too.

By that measure, virtually all of the early FMP's play a role here. Important to a discussion that hinges upon music that is more often "talked about" than "heard" is the fact that, barring the every-so-often UMS reissue, the better part of these albums remain unavailable. The present state of CD availability is skewed toward a very narrow understanding of who/what was important.

Talk about Mingus--there's an anecdote about when Charles Mingus met Johnny Dyani. Mingus said something to the effect of, "Do you read music?"--Johnny said, "No." Mingus replies--"I read music". The bassists proceed to play, after which Mingus goes--"You sounded sharp." Dyani, in typical, badass fashion, replies, "You sounded flat." I think there was a lot of respect there.

[Alexander Hawkins]

By that measure, virtually all of the early FMP's play a role here. Important to a discussion that hinges upon music that is more often "talked about" than "heard" is the fact that, barring the every-so-often UMS reissue, the better part of these albums remain unavailable. The present state of CD availability is skewed toward a very narrow understanding of who/what was important.

A very good point, well-taken

(Let's not even start on ICP availability!)

[JSngry]

Call me old school, but...Albert Mangelsdorff. The original liner notes to Tension are a freakin' manifesto.

[ep1str0phy]

Agreed on Mangelsdorff. I think he's pretty important as both an early voice of "modernism" over there (and as precedent for his more patricidal peers). I have yet to hear his earliest dates in the free-ish/modal mode (again, an availability issue), though his presence in later decades is certainly felt.

[clifford_thornton]

The mid-60s Mangelsdorff stuff is very good, and pertinent to this discussion. Also the 1st Gunter Hampel on Saba, the Manfred Schoof on CBS... steps in the "right" direction, for sure.

The amount of radio tapes (esp. NDR and WDR) circulating these days is staggering, and many of these sessions are even superior to what was released commercially. With the access that Corbett has, it's surprising that stuff like that isn't being reissued, though a marginal (albeit good) FMP like Tern is in digital circulation.

Red, point taken. I guess I was differentiating the Surman/Beckett/Taylor camp and the Bailey/Parker/Rutherford, perhaps unfairly. 'Course, Oxley, Stevens and Howard Riley straddled the hell out of that early on...

[ep1str0phy]

Rutherford, too--he was with the Westbrook camp (remarkably, granted his penchant for total and nigh-total abstraction in later years).

As far as weird radio tapes--talk about free improv: there's a Pukwana/Brotzmann concert in circulation, and it's pretty hard core (not that horrible-sounding, with maybe enough time for a release).

With intermittent excursions into the radio tape realm--as well as access to FMP material--I'd say that UMS is (regardless of what you'll say/have with Corbett) a pretty great hope for future reissues in this music. Balancing criticisms and positive elements, it's like the RVG series of European Free Improv.

Edited March 9, 2007 by ep1str0phy