Original Impulse LPs

[ASNL77]

How can I recognise Impulse original pressings? Is the Orange Label with the 4 Impulse logos written in black sufficient for the record to be an original? I have here a copy of Lawrence Brown's All Stars session with the black and orange label. (Mono A-89). It says:'A product of ABC-Paramount records'. Is that a 1st pressing or a reissue? There is no 'RVG' or 'Van Gelder' in the dead wax. Do all original Impulse records have this stamp in the dead wax? Thanks for your help.

Edited March 2, 2007 by ASNL77

[kh1958]

This site has label pictures. Unfortunately, it is in Japanese.

http://www.absolutemusik.com/info/jazz_imp..._labels_tc.html

I assume that the original label is the red and black label in the first line.

[jazzhound]

the label you describe is the predates the red label. Not all pressings have RVG stamp.

[Stereojack]

Impulse was created as a division of ABC Paramount, so even the earliest pressings are identified this way. The orange label with the black border was used until 1968, when it was replaced by the black label with the red border. I believe this may have been after mono was discontinued, so your mono LP is probably an original.

The covers of the early originals are laminated, and on the very first releases, perhaps the first 15 or 20, the inside cover is printed in blue or green ink, later pressings use black ink. The laminated covers were discontinued around the same time that the label was changed. As already stated, not all releases have the Van Gelder stamp in the dead wax.

[brownie]

Impulse LPs with catalogue numbers from 1 to 100 and have the orange and black label are originals. That label also was used for early releases in the 9100 series.

My copy of the Lawrence Brown Impulse (a mono cover with a stereo sticker) is a later stereo pressing. There is a Van Gelder stamp on the dead wax of both sides. It does not have the original orange and black label.

Edited March 3, 2007 by brownie

[wigwise]

Does anyone know the last LP to be pressed with the orange with black border, before moving over to the black with red border? The reason I ask is because I've never seen orange/black copies of :

9154 (Shepp, Archie) The Magic Of Ju-Ju

9156 (Coltrane, Alice) Monastic Trio

9160 (Jones, Elvin & Richard Davis) Heavy Sounds

9161 (Coltrane, John) Selflessness

9162 (Shepp, Archie) Three For A Quarter, One For A Dime

But yet:

9163 (Scott, Tom) Honeysuckle Breeze, The

9164 (Plummer, Bill) Cosmic Brotherhood

Also, LP's 9155, 9156-59 have orange/black labels.

I'm guessing some LP's where assigned a number and released later?

[brownie]

My copy of Coltrane's 'Selflessness' (9161) has a US cover and a French (excellent) pressing. The label is orange and black. The French distributors of Impulse at the time kept the orange and black labels for quite a while!

[Parkertown]

My copy of Coltrane's 'Selflessness' (9161) has a US cover and a French (excellent) pressing. The label is orange and black. The French distributors of Impulse at the time kept the orange and black labels for quite a while!

Such a beautiful cover on this one. I'm still looking for an inexpensive one with a decent cover. It's so psychedelic!!!

Edited March 3, 2007 by Parkertown

[ASNL77]

Why is it that stereo versions always sell for less than mono versions? Is this due to the small number of mono copies printed or has it got anything to do with sound quality?

[kh1958]

Why is it that stereo versions always sell for less than mono versions? Is this due to the small number of mono copies printed or has it got anything to do with sound quality?

"Audiophiles" think mono LPs sound better.

[porcy62]

Why is it that stereo versions always sell for less than mono versions? Is this due to the small number of mono copies printed or has it got anything to do with sound quality?

"Audiophiles" think mono LPs sound better.

Not me, I think that early BN and Atlantic stereos sound worse, often much worse, then their mono issues. Impulse! stereos sound good to me, like Contemporary's stereos.

Japanese collectors are "mono" maniacs, as they are "mono triode" (the vacuum tube) and "Horns" (louspeakers) maniacs. So if they are a big part of the crazyness about mono blame them, not the whole category of "audiophiles".

Edited March 5, 2007 by porcy62

[Shrdlu]

The original (black and orange label) pressings and the next ones, with the black labels and red outer ring, are sonically the same, that is, you get that great original sound.

The reason why you don't always see RVG in the dead wax is that, right from the start of Impulse, Rudy was not always the engineer. A & R and others did quite a lot. Generally, you only see RVG in the dead wax if Rudy was the engineer, though there are exceptions. The ones that Rudy didn't do still sound terrific. You will see RVG on the red and black ones that Rudy recorded.

I usually avoid the later pressings of the 60s albums, but I did accidentally get one, with the green label, and it sounded great. (It was one of those excellent "Definitive Jazz Scene" LPs.) But I did an A/B comparison with an original pressing and a green label issue of one of the Lateefs, and there was a noticeable difference. You would not have to be an audiophile to prefer the original one.

As for stereo/mono, I just prefer stereo if it's available, and I'm happy with it. After about 1963 or so, the monos were just collapsed-down stereo anyway, but before that, Rudy did separate mono and stereo versions.

Hope that helps.

It's good that you can still get Impulse LPs on eBay without having to sell the Lamborghini! I still find it amazing what people will pay for the Blue Notes, which are, to me, on the same level as the Impulses, and always were.

By the way, Rudy also did a lot of the 60s Verves, and many have RVG on them. And they are also affordable.

[ASNL77]

Thanks Shrdlu. Very useful info.

[Shrdlu]

No problemo, hermano!

The sad thing is that, when you have heard the LPs, you want to replace all the CDs! But I have too many Impulse CDs to do that. Ironically, I have LPs (with better sound!) of less important albums, and many of the major ones I have only on CD. I got the first Japanese CD issue (mid 90s) of Milt Jackson's "Jazz 'N' Samba" album (a longtime favorite!), and that CD has awesome sound. Those CDs are very hard to come by now.

[ASNL77]

No problemo, hermano!

The sad thing is that, when you have heard the LPs, you want to replace all the CDs! But I have too many Impulse CDs to do that. Ironically, I have LPs (with better sound!) of less important albums, and many of the major ones I have only on CD. I got the first Japanese CD issue (mid 90s) of Milt Jackson's "Jazz 'N' Samba" album (a longtime favorite!), and that CD has awesome sound. Those CDs are very hard to come by now.

Tell me about it! . At least with the prices the Blue Notes go for, there is no chance I may even consider buying even one of them. Whereas, $45, $60 records are much more difficult to resist. I knew I sould never have joined Organissimo.....

[clifford_thornton]

Chuck did point out in another thread that all Impulse! studio recordings were done in stereo, and mono LPs are "folded-down" from the stereo version. To get the natural Impulse! sound, one should stick to the original stereo LPs.

I have some mono Impulse! LPs and they sound good to me. All were cheaply procured.

[porcy62]

I knew I sould never have joined Organissimo.....

Don't even try to join places like Steve Hoffman Forum, otherwise you should even check the "best " stampers on the dead wax out

Edited March 6, 2007 by porcy62

[Teasing the Korean]

Chuck did point out in another thread that all Impulse! studio recordings were done in stereo, and mono LPs are "folded-down" from the stereo version. To get the natural Impulse! sound, one should stick to the original stereo LPs.

I have some mono Impulse! LPs and they sound good to me. All were cheaply procured.

In fairness, it should be added that fold down mono mixes of 2 track stereo mixes can work very well IF the engineer is good and knows that this is the intention from the get-go. Many Van Gelder Blue Note monos were folded down from the stereo, and listening to them both ways, I'm convinced that he set his levels on the stereo recording based on how it would sound in mono. The bass and the piano come up in the mix a tad when you fold down those stereo mixes, and they sound better.

Also, just because a mix is folded down doesn't mean the engineer may not do some individual tweaking to the left and right to make them sound right in mono.

Folddowns were (typically) disastrous, though, with three track recordings featuring a left, center, and right channel.

[RDK]

No problemo, hermano!

The sad thing is that, when you have heard the LPs, you want to replace all the CDs! But I have too many Impulse CDs to do that. Ironically, I have LPs (with better sound!) of less important albums, and many of the major ones I have only on CD. I got the first Japanese CD issue (mid 90s) of Milt Jackson's "Jazz 'N' Samba" album (a longtime favorite!), and that CD has awesome sound. Those CDs are very hard to come by now.

Welcome back, Shrdlu!

[porcy62]

Folddowns were (typically) disastrous, though, with three track recordings featuring a left, center, and right channel.

I don't totally agree about it. My mono original copy of Kind Of Blue, though slower then the correct master, sounds good. As you said it depends on sound engineers.

edit. Ah, yes, welcome back Shrdlu!

Edited March 6, 2007 by porcy62

[Teasing the Korean]

Are you sure the mono KOB was a fold down?

[Shrdlu]

I'm glad to say that you don't have to cough up $45 - $60 for most Impulses on eBay. And I mean LPs in good shape - I don't buy noisy ones.

Re the mono, my first copy of Freddie Hubbard's "Ready For Freddie" was a mono, and it really sang out

when the seller test-played it for me on their cheap turntable. Art Davis's bass almost jumped into the room. Mind you, that album starts real hot. Talk about an album selling itself! Wooowee!

[porcy62]

Are you sure the mono KOB was a fold down?

Actually, no. But the stereo is a three tracks mix, as they used at Columbia. It might be that they runned two recorders.

[clifford_thornton]

Also, just because a mix is folded down doesn't mean the engineer may not do some individual tweaking to the left and right to make them sound right in mono.

Good point, and one I hadn't thought about.

[Shrdlu]

The mono of Curtis Fuller's "Soul Trombone" isn't folded-down stereo. The album actually lists two different engineers, one each for mono and stereo. I don't see why they didn't just use one engineer, but there you are.