The Baseball Thread 2007

[Quincy]

Quincy,

It's true he won't find that kind of money, but to cut a guy's salary by 25%, when likely no other manager could get a team to come back from as far down as they were(I am sure you remember, they lost almost all their starters early on, doesn't matter how big your budget is if you haven't any healthy guys) is an insult. Not like the team came in 3rd. Acting like he can make the same money, IF they get thru all rounds, nope...insulting. Hey, Andruw Jones thinks he is going to get a 5-6 Million dollar raise after hitting around .220....Torre had a much better year.

Feel sorry for him, and I really hope that the Yankees have a .500 season next year after losing Jorge, A-Rod and Mariano......

Oh yeah, I certainly get that side of things too. As mentioned earlier by another, it was an effective way to get rid of him without firing him. Still, unlike Stengal (different owner, different times) at least he was offered a contract, and one that would have kept him the highest paid manager in baseball. He had the highest paid roster all those years, whereas you know other than 2 good years in Atlanta his managing record with the Mets & Cards was not great.

I like Joe a lot, both as a player (as a kid I couldn't understand why the Cards traded him to the Mets), manager, and person. For one thing I always like how you could pick him out in the team photos because of his 5 o'clock shadow. I suppose in a way what the Yankees did is crueler than just firing him. Because he had to chose between pride and possibly the best job in baseball (were it not who you worked for) and whether it was worth a pay cut down $5 million. That may tear at him till he dies more than likely.

On the other hand, I think some owners may worried about the economy, and how that may interfere with the ability to raise ticket prices etc. I think even the likes of the New York Yankees would be wise to cut some of the fat. Saving 4 million on a manager, not paying Clemens, maybe even not overpaying (or going long) on a 36 year old catcher or an aging reliever might be a healthy thing for the team long term. I know I know, long-term thinking isn't allowed in the Bronx.

So why the hell isn't Cashman being asked to work for less?

[Quincy]

Good luck finding somebody willing to manage for an asshole owner in the New York fishbowl filled with spoiled fans who whine every goddamned year they can't win the World Series.

Yeah, that's going to be really hard to find. Good luck indeed. Bobby Valentine probably thinks he can manage the Yanks and his team in Japan at the same time. Joe Girardi tried to act cool on Fox...what's Derek's opinion about him I wonder. Yup, there's a big shortage of guys who'd want to manage the NY Yankees alright.

You think about that, Quincy.

Ok hoss. I'm also thinking that Lou Piniella is bashing his head against a wall screaming "why the hell did I sign with the Cubs!"

[Dan Gould]

It obviously came down to respect for Joe and what he felt he deserved after twelve years of varying degrees of success. I bet if the offer was two years at 5 million, with or without "incentives" he would have taken it, because he'd made it clear that he felt he should be the one to close the old Yankee Stadium and open the new one. With this offer, the only way he gets that, guaranteed, is if he wins the ALCS. Otherwise, he'd go through the same thing again a year from now - or never have the chance anyway because he'd be fired in May after a slow start.

As far as getting 5 million elsewhere, that's not the challenge Joe faces. The challenge Joe faces is winning without a 200 million dollar payroll. Its winning when your bench players are Irving Lefkowicz and Manny Alexander, not Johnny Damon and Jason Giambi. With his history of success, Joe will get a sizeable offer that will certainly be in the Lou Piniella neighborhood. After all these years, Joe doesn't need to make 5 or 7 million. The issue now is going back to the payroll situation of his previous managerial gigs and seeing if he can win under those circumstances. He sure as hell didn't win much when he didn't have the roster the Yankees had.

[Dan Gould]

Well, since I was wrong about the Red Sox ending my misery last night, a few comments:

Did anyone else doubt that Manny's shot was a home run? What are the rules about hitting yellow + hitting beyond the yellow? Obviously a home run to me, and it wasn't even clear that the ball hit yellow, it looked like a seam was lifted up on the bounce-back.

We're very lucky (by which I mean, random Cleveland fans I might run into and the umpiring crew) that the run didn't matter in the end, but hopefully this will help convince the owners that instant replay on home run or foul balls really is a good idea. All you need is one person in the press box to watch the monitors, and a decision wouldn't take any longer than it already takes for the crew to huddle and talk it over, so it won't make any difference in the length of a game.

The other thing that has to happen is for the Indians to re-design that section of fence. Its very simple and obvious: The horizontal part beyond the fence gets lowered by a foot or two. Then if the ball ticks off the yellow and hits beyond, it will be obvious because it will be impossible to carom back onto the field. The only balls that could still carom onto the field would be the ones two or more feet beyond the yellow, and they can't screw up those calls (can they?)

So now it comes down to Schilling vs Carmona II. Can Schilling get his shit together? Once again he's pitching for his next contract, and once again, Beckett put another exclamation point on his campaign to be recognized as the modern Post-Season pitching stud. C.C. was off his game again - can it happen to Carmona again, too? Can the Red Sox take my advice and make him throw strikes by laying off that infuriating pitch?

IMHO, we have a shot only if the bats wake up Saturday and again on Sunday. Youkilis and Pedroia look like they are getting on a roll, that will help - but they need someone to step up in the second half of the lineup. Too bad Tito is so wedded to stability and sticking with the guys who brung him. I'd consider giving Drew or Coco a night off and letting Ellsbury lead-off, Pedroia bat second, and drop Youk down to six. Or even keep the lineup as it is but put Jacoby in the eight spot instead of Coco.

[Man with the Golden Arm]

Well, since I was wrong about the Red Sox ending my misery last night, a few comments:

Did anyone else doubt that Manny's shot was a home run? What are the rules about hitting yellow + hitting beyond the yellow? Obviously a home run to me, and it wasn't even clear that the ball hit yellow, it looked like a seam was lifted up on the bounce-back.

I too thought that was a HR off the bat BUT after looking at all them replays I think the right call was made. Whatever is under that yellow mat is what caused it to bounce back onto the field. Looked like a hit right on the corner just like a perfect toss in "Step Ball". Seemed to me they said that yellow is the edge no matter but had it gone a quarter inch higher and ricocheted into the stands it's a round trip.

STILL, friggin Manny mang, walking out of the box - he must have been a real pain in the ass as a little leaguer.

[skeith]

7-1, Sox. Bottom of the 8th.

Uh...paging Skeith.

Tell me again how far off I was...can you, please.

I just live for that.

very far off from your prediction of Boston in 5. We'll talk again Saturday.

[Matthew]

Despite appearances, I still think this is going back to Boston.

Me too. Beckett is lights out. Unfortunately for Red Sox Nation he can't pitch game 6 or 7.

Can I get some of whatever shit you're smoking?

Go ahead Dan, take another puff.

[MartyJazz]

A few things after reading the last 10 or so posts.

This is one Yankee fan who never whines about not getting to the Big Show. I've seen plenty of 'em and while I admired this year's club for making a run for it after a horrendous start, I didn't think this club was as well rounded as you need to be to win all the marbles. For one thing, I know Wang is not an "ace", much less a lights out pitcher. That description I reserve for Josh Beckett who really deserves the Cy Young this year, even though I know that the post season does not count towards the voting. A great in season AND post season pitcher!

Speaking of "ace" pitchers, what's with Sabathia? He has not impressed me at all during the entire post season, and was quite lucky to win at all (against the Yanks) thus far. Carmona on the other hand seems to be the real deal. Here's hoping he ends this series at 6 games.

According to the rules Dan, Manny's shot was not a homer. It did hit the yellow and only if it had bounded into the stands could it have then been called a HR. So I don't think replay would have changed the decision. As for Manny not running it out and getting into scoring position......well, it's a good thing he's a great, great hitter because his spaceiness would be intolerable otherwise.

Torre. Money aside, offering him a one year deal was an insult. He doesn't need the bucks at this point so he made the right decision. Good luck to the next Yankee manager handling all those high priced personalities. And again speaking of money, all A-Rod has to decide is whether he's happy being in New York. Money should no longer be an issue considering what he's made and will continue to make be it in New York or elsewhere. I mean it's still the case that money makes money, isn't it?

Edited October 19, 2007 by MartyJazz

[Noj]

Thanks for clearing up that rule for me, Marty. I thought it should have been a home run by virtue of hitting the yellow line.

[Tim McG]

Good luck finding somebody willing to manage for an asshole owner in the New York fishbowl filled with spoiled fans who whine every goddamned year they can't win the World Series.

Yeah, that's going to be really hard to find. Good luck indeed. Bobby Valentine probably thinks he can manage the Yanks and his team in Japan at the same time. Joe Girardi tried to act cool on Fox...what's Derek's opinion about him I wonder. Yup, there's a big shortage of guys who'd want to manage the NY Yankees alright.

You think about that, Quincy.

Ok hoss. I'm also thinking that Lou Piniella is bashing his head against a wall screaming "why the hell did I sign with the Cubs!"

Good point.

[BERIGAN]

about the yellow line though....WTF is the reason for it, anyway??? The only other yellow on the field is the "Foul" poles, which of course should be called fair poles. Why paint the top of the fence yellow then??? to make the ball harder to see if it does hit the top of the fence??? I just don't get it at all.

[Soulstation1]

the tribe doesn't want any part of game # 7 in boston

[Tim McG]

about the yellow line though....WTF is the reason for it, anyway??? The only other yellow on the field is the "Foul" poles, which of course should be called fair poles. Why paint the top of the fence yellow then??? to make the ball harder to see if it does hit the top of the fence??? I just don't get it at all.

They used to be white and were painted yellow for the same reason.

[zen archer]

Francona has Jacoby Ellsbury batting 8th tonight !!!

[Dan Gould]

Francona has Jacoby Ellsbury batting 8th tonight !!!

Personally I think Ellsbury would have an easier time against Westbrook in Game 7, if we get there, but he can't do any worse than Coco has

Whatever happens, Coco has to know when the season is over that he'll be leaving the Sox clubhouse for the last time.

[Tjazz]

Torre made $7.5 million last year. He was offered $5 mil for 1 year with a 1 mil bonus for making the playoffs, 1 million for making to the ALCS, and 1 mil for making it the World Series. If the Yanks won the pennant he'd get a $8 million dollar deal for 2009. He turned 67 last July.

Here are the next richest deals:

Lou Piniella, CHC $3.5 million

Bobby Cox, ATL $3 million

Tony La Russa, STL $2.8 million

Mike Scioscia, LAA $2 million

Jim Leyland, DET $2 million

Bruce Bochy, SF $1.75 million

Good luck finding a $5,000,000 job out there Joe, let alone one that pays $7,500,000. Maybe not having to deal with Steinbrenner & Co. is worth the difference!

Quincy,

It's true he won't find that kind of money, but to cut a guy's salary by 25%, when likely no other manager could get a team to come back from as far down as they were(I am sure you remember, they lost almost all their starters early on, doesn't matter how big your budget is if you haven't any healthy guys) is an insult. Not like the team came in 3rd. Acting like he can make the same money, IF they get thru all rounds, nope...insulting. Hey, Andruw Jones thinks he is going to get a 5-6 Million dollar raise after hitting around .220....Torre had a much better year.

Feel sorry for him, and I really hope that the Yankees have a .500 season next year after losing Jorge, A-Rod and Mariano......

You can't give a manager credit for bringing a team back, when it's the same manager that had the bad start.

Do you think the Rockie's have great manager for winning 20 of the last 21 games? Is he now worth 5 million?

It's the players.

There are plenty, yes plenty of guys who would be willing to manage the Yankees. Girardi had a great year managing the Marlins and he was sacked the next year. I'm sure he'd take 2 million or less and coach the Yankees.

A 25% salary cut isn't much, when you consider he was making more than 100% more than any other coach.

A 5 million offer was still alot more than other managers get in the same world.

[Neal Pomea]

Indian's Wild Pitch Saws Bobbing Up and Down Kevin Youkliss in Half!

Which network is covering the World Series? Hope it's not Fox.

Edited October 21, 2007 by It Should be You

[zen archer]

10-1 SOX !!!......and Ellsbury drove in a run and the GREAT JD Drew comes ALIVE !!!!!!!!

Edited October 21, 2007 by zen archer

[MartyJazz]

Dan, how could you give up on your team after Game 4? It's obviously going 7 at this point, Sox currently up 10-1, and I certainly wouldn't bet against them. Tribe pitchers gagging big time.

[zen archer]

Sabathia and Carmona have a combined 27.00 era in this series and a combined 0-3 record.

WOW , thats amazing these were the guys we feared.

Tomorrow night DICE-K , ya gotta think he will come up with a good game . He did have some great games this

year and his record is decieving. He lost a few games 2-1 and 3-2 the SOX did not give him

a lot of run support especially early in the season.

Tomorrow night should be fun and every one is available including beckett !

[Big Al]

Was anyone else worried when they brought in Gagne to protect a 10-run lead? Besides Indians fans, who were probably jumping for joy.

Anyway, I was worried.

Game 7 oughta be interesting.

[GA Russell]

It's the players.

Casey Stengel said that the secret of managing is to keep the five guys who hate you away from the five guys who aren't sure!

[BERIGAN]

Torre made $7.5 million last year. He was offered $5 mil for 1 year with a 1 mil bonus for making the playoffs, 1 million for making to the ALCS, and 1 mil for making it the World Series. If the Yanks won the pennant he'd get a $8 million dollar deal for 2009. He turned 67 last July.

Here are the next richest deals:

Lou Piniella, CHC $3.5 million

Bobby Cox, ATL $3 million

Tony La Russa, STL $2.8 million

Mike Scioscia, LAA $2 million

Jim Leyland, DET $2 million

Bruce Bochy, SF $1.75 million

Good luck finding a $5,000,000 job out there Joe, let alone one that pays $7,500,000. Maybe not having to deal with Steinbrenner & Co. is worth the difference!

Quincy,

It's true he won't find that kind of money, but to cut a guy's salary by 25%, when likely no other manager could get a team to come back from as far down as they were(I am sure you remember, they lost almost all their starters early on, doesn't matter how big your budget is if you haven't any healthy guys) is an insult. Not like the team came in 3rd. Acting like he can make the same money, IF they get thru all rounds, nope...insulting. Hey, Andruw Jones thinks he is going to get a 5-6 Million dollar raise after hitting around .220....Torre had a much better year.

Feel sorry for him, and I really hope that the Yankees have a .500 season next year after losing Jorge, A-Rod and Mariano......

You can't give a manager credit for bringing a team back, when it's the same manager that had the bad start.

Why not? They had a bad start because every single starting pitcher out of spring training was on the DL at some point during the first half. Remember who their opening day pitcher was??? Carl Pavano! Just trying to remember some of the names, and time they were on the DL, found this article from April, about a game Mussina left with a hamstring injury.....

Nineteen-game winner Chien-Ming Wang already is on the disabled list with a strained right hamstring, pitching prospects Jeff Karstens and Humberto Sanchez are also out, and fifth starter Darrell Rasner left his first outing early because of a blister. And left fielder Hideki Matsui has a strained left hamstring, too, which sent him to the DL on Sunday.

All I know, is the last 2 years, stat freaks pulled out all their tricks to show how teams simply do not come back from as far behind as the Yankees were, even in June....but, they did come back, both years. Torre's players do not quit, even when common sense says, there's no way to win, even the Wildcard. After all, it's coming out of the AL central this year(Remember that talk?)

Even Red Sox fans had to begrudgingly give credit to the way A-Rod and Jeter kept playing banged up, while Manny took a month off....

Do you think the Rockie's have great manager for winning 20 of the last 21 games? Is he now worth 5 million?

If the Rockies win 4 of the next 5 WS, he sure is!

It's the players.

Really?

Let me tell you about a certain team in the south, the braves. 3rd base, Chipper Jones. Battled injuring, but the future HOF'er just missed a batting title, hitting .337 with 29 HR's, and 105 RBI's Our SS Edgar Renteria missed some time as well, but hit .332. After missing all of the 2006 season, Kelly Johnson had a good year at 2nd, hitting .276 (.375 OBP) with 16 HR's and 68 RBI's. He would sit against some lefties for most of the 2nd half, so the second coming of Derek Jeter(Rookie Yunel Escobar) could play when not filling in for the injured Renteria. His .326 average in 312 AB's will be why the Braves will trade their .332 hitting SS this winter. 1st base was a black hole for much of the season, till Mark Texiera showed up, and all he did in 54 games was hit .317 with 17 HR's and 56 RBI's!!!! Behind the plate is one of the best young catchers(At least hitting wise) in the game, Brian McCann. Hit 270, but drove in 92 RBI's. In left, Willie Harris and Matt Diaz combined to hit around .300 for the year. Andruw Jones had a terrible, terrible year, hit only .222, but still managed to hit 26 HR's and drive in 94 RBI's. Right Field belongs to Jeff Francoeur "Frenchy" has about the best arm in RF, and at the tender age of 23, has had back to back seasons driving in 100 or more RBI's. Raised his average 33 points from 2006.

And the team has some starting pitching as well. Tim Hudson finally looked like the great AL pitcher he was a few years back, 16-10 ERA 3.33. Still not the ace of this staff though. That is John Smoltz, who even at 40 struck out 197 in 205 innings, going 14-8 (Bullpen blew many games he left with a lead, and team scored 1 run or less in 7 of his losses) 3.11 ERA. The rest of the staff was kind of dicey, but with a pretty good bullpen, we had a team ERA of 4.11, 3rd best in the NL!!!!!

So, what did this team do during the season??? They went 84-78, 3rd in the NL east. Why??? Those players look pretty good, don't they??? One reason. Booby Cox. Once a decent manager, now a complete nincompoop. He easily lost the team 10-12 games all by himself! How? By resting guys 2-3 at a time, just handing the other team a win. Usually on getaway day, nothing like starting a roadtrip after a loss! By batting Andruw Jones 4th for most of the year, only to briefly take him out of cleanup when his BA went below .200. But, after a few games, he was right back in there swinging at sliders 2 feet outside. By wearing out the pen bringing guys in for meaningless games , then having to use them the next 3 nights in the close ones! Using Wickman as a closer on the road, where his ERA was about 7 times higher than it was at home. (wait, 0.35 ERA at home, 7.03 away, someone do the math for me, I am sick as a dog and can't do math right now!) By forcing a trade of Macay McBride , our ONLY leftie in the bullpen, cuz he walked a few guys to start an inning off. A cardinal sin in Booby's eyes. Hack at a low outside pitch up 3-1 in the count, and hit into a dp? Hey, guy's just trying to get a hit! But walk a guy? To Detroit with you! At least we got a lefty Wilfredo Ledezma , who had a nice 7.71 ERA for us!!! And who lefties hit better than righties! Having losers like Chris Woodward get 137 AB's for the club, while hitting .199 for the year! And he sucked as a defensive replacement! But, he was our go to guy when we needed a Pinch hitter. Surely, any ol' Minor leaguer could do that or better! By bringing Former #1 pick Joey Divine up 6-7 times this season, but only letting him pitch 8 Innings! (1.02 ERA) He's the guy the genius Cox put into 2 games his rookie year, fresh out of college....with the bases loaded! he gave up grand slams in both games. That was 2005, so who knows if he is completely ruined. Has only pitched in 19 Innings in 3 years. Walks some guys, so most likely will stay at AAA.

There are plenty, yes plenty of guys who would be willing to manage the Yankees. Girardi had a great year managing the Marlins and he was sacked the next year. I'm sure he'd take 2 million or less and coach the Yankees.

I'm sure you are right, it will be a high paying job, with a chance to win. Unless Mo, Petitte, A-Rod, and Jorge chose to play elsewhere. Then, after a 24-32 start, the new manager will be the first guy fired in 2008.

A 25% salary cut isn't much, when you consider he was making more than 100% more than any other coach.

A 5 million offer was still alot more than other managers get in the same world.

True enough, but let's say I was your boss, you got a tons of new accounts for me for several years, more than anyone else working for me, and I was paying you 100,000 a year for 3 years. (You started at 50 K 5 years earlier) Then you have a few decent years, but you don't have the highest number anymore within the company. So, I tell you I will give you one more year to reach the numbers you did a few years back, but you have to take a 33 % pay cut, with the chance thru bonuses to get back the salary you were at last year....you wouldn't feel insulted? Like you weren't really trying last year, so you need some financial motivation now? With an axe hanging over your head?

Hey, it's not the end of the world, I'm not even a Yankee fan, but Torre is a class act, who has done nothing but win, with a bunch of players that don't always mix(Sheffield is a classic loser, great in the regular season, but always a strikeout victim with the playoff game on the line)

Wow. Did I ever write a lot! Well, couldn't sleep with my lungs all constricted by a cold, but may be able to after this epic, pointless post of mine! Thanks!

Edited October 21, 2007 by BERIGAN

[BERIGAN]

I double dog dare anyone to read all the crap I just wrote above!

Or the page before....

Edited October 21, 2007 by BERIGAN

[Dan Gould]

Someone was saying something about JD DREW but I can't remember who it was ....

:g

Marty, its the unfortunate truth that 2004 does not erase memories of bad post-seasons of the past. I honestly don't know when I will start to expect good things to happen - maybe my pessimistic nature will always win out, I don't know.

I do feel good about tonight though because:

we've got momentum

we're at home

important, relatively quiet bats have come alive (Pedroia, Drew)

I question the likelihood of Westbrook shutting us down two in a row, and he has bad career numbers at Fenway

But with Dice-K starting I just don't know what to expect. Ideally, the bats stay hot, Dice goes seven strong and we enjoy a laugher. But my best guess is that the team that starts out hitting and keeps it going will win, because it will become a battle of the bullpens.

I just hope we complete the comeback because otherwise I will always lament the fact that in Game 2, Youkilis had to rip that ninth inning pitch quite so hard. If he doesn't square it up so much, it drops in front, Jacoby scores, and this thing is over with the Sox beating the two-headed monster four times.