The Baseball Thread 2007

[Patrick]

It all comes back to the feeling that is always in the pit of the stomach of a Red Sox fan that anything can happen, that they can find another way to torture you. That's why I keep telling my wife that every game matters, and that there is no way we will waltz into the post season never having a lead smaller than 10+ games the rest of the year. The worm can turn at any time, and any night the Sox lose and the Yanks win isn't a good night.

And to lose with Dice on the mound with a two run lead in the fifth is even more annoying. Byrd may have an impressive stat to his credit, but I see that the last time it happened over a full season was in the 90s for Bret Saberhagen. Is Byrd a Bret Saberhagen? At 88-74 with a career ERA+ of 106 vs 167-117 and 126, I don't think so. I wouldn't look for Byrd to turn out to be anything more than a league average pitcher (maybe with a few wins more due to his offense) but being around the plate with mediocre stuff (lifetime K/9=5) probably won't get by when the summer warms up and balls start flying out of stadiums. The Tribe needs Cliff Lee to be the number three, not Byrd. And I say that regardless of whether Byrd keeps his win total over his walk total.

As for Dice-K he was obviously not right. 100+ pitches gets him through seven almost every time, and with a helluva lot better results, too.

Agreed that every game counts, anything can happen, and losing is not good. Is Dice K better than he pitched? Probably. Over the course of the whole season, are Schilling and Beckett as good as they pitched earlier in the series? Probably not--to believe otherwise is being a tad bit unrealistic/greedy. Were either of those games blowouts? No. So the Tribe was a bit "unlucky" in the Schill and Beck that showed up. Your team took care of business at home against the team with the next best record. Let go of the Dice K start, reflect on the series overall, look at the division standings and SMILE! Life is short, and right now, good. If bad things happen, it will not be instantaneous--there will be plenty of time for hysteria later.

Paul Byrd's success this year thus far has been a pleasant surprise. With Lee and Westbrook back and pitching reasonably well, and with the emergence of Carmona, Byrd should be the 5th starter. Byrd was dreadful last year--I was hoping they'd find some club that would take him in a trade. With the help of John Smoltz in the off-season, Byrd has added a split-finger fastball which has improved his success against left-handed batters. He's not Saberhagen, and I expect he will walk a few. But thus far, he has pitched well.

[Dan Gould]

Actually Beckett resumed right where he left off. Compared to last year, you could say that Beckett is overperforming but if the decision to trust Varitek and his secondary pitches is a permanent one, there are good odds that Beckett has finally taken the steps necessary to be an ace and should throw like one for the next 4-5 years or more.

Schilling made a major change in the grip on his splitter and suddenly discovered that it was behaving like it did in his best seasons. Its an open question whether this will be a sustainable change. If it is, watch out, and if it isn't, then I will be glad they didn't sign him for 2008 during spring training.

As for Dice, he is clearly much better than this. Before his last two starts he had gone 3-0 with an ERA under 2 in his previous three games. Last time, he was violently ill and had one terrible inning, still managing to get the win. This time, he couldn't figure out how to finish batters off. I can't stand two strike hits and must have seen at least 1/2 of the 12 he gave up happen in that situation.

You of course are right that now is the time to smile. But as a Sox fan, the negativity and fear remains deeply ingrained.

[Dan Gould]

I think there is clear and compelling proof that A-Rod did indeed say "Mine!" here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9hYZA_s_E8M

Note that if he said "Ha" his mouth would have hung open and then closed whereas it looks pretty obvious he is forming a sound as his mouth closes - the tail end of "mine".

What a loser.

[Big Al]

How very sandlot!

[BERIGAN]

I have to laugh at the uproar over what A-Rod did!!! If someone read a book that had someone like Honus Wagner, or Ty Cobb doing this, people would laugh. I think knocking down a hitter after he, or the player before him hit a home run is bush league/sandlot......

Edited May 31, 2007 by BERIGAN

[trane_fanatic]

Armando "fucking" Benitez is a tragedy on two legs.

Thank goodness he didn't pitch tonight and the Gigantes actually post a win.

Gonna be a looooong season.

Grrrrr

Ahhhh, quit yer whining. At least you're closer to .500 than my stink-hole of a team. You guys are even closer to .500 than my sentimental faves, the Cubs.

I bet Tom Hicks is looking for a way to take Benitez off your hands. And before anyone says, "Only a fool would do such a thing," remember who we're talking about here.

That's right: you read it here first.

You, sir have ESP, well sorta... he's not going to Texas, but Florida.

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news;_ylt=An4C...p&type=lgns

[J Larsen]

About damn time. It was embarassing how long the gutless Giants allowed Beneitz to disrespect them... I don't think a single person in the management side of that organization has any self-respect whatsoever.

Now if they'd just get rid of the other jerk on the team...

[Big Al]

I heard that the Rangers were about to offer to buy out his entire contract, but then they saw that his ERA was only 4.67.......

[Soulstation1]

tribe back to slappin' the tigers around

GO CC!!!!!!!!

[Quincy]

I have to laugh at the uproar over what A-Rod did!!! If someone read a book that had someone like Honus Wagner, or Ty Cobb doing this, people would laugh.

I thought it was great! It's not much different than a 2nd baseman or SS pretending to get a throw from the OF hoping the runner will slide into 2nd rather than continue on to 3rd. Or maybe it is, but I didn't think ARod had this in him. What next, will he try the hidden ball trick?

[Noj]

So there's two perceptions of A-Rod's deception. Was it a crafty, heads-up, old-school play or a dirty, bush-league, cheapskate play? I had the same thought as Quincy, that it's much like a "deak" infielders might try to put on a baserunner.

[Dan Gould]

I'm amazed that people are defending him. There are plenty of "old school" ballplayers who are calling it bush league and most seem to think that the answer is a pitch in the ribs, either to the next batter or the next time you face the cheater.

No one ever went head hunting after a successful "deak" on a baserunner that keeps him from taking an extra base. That's how the game is played and its up to the runner to know where the ball was hit. This is flat out cheating and most players have never seen it even be attempted. That tells you right there that its not an accepted form of gamesmanship.

And A-Rod's claim that it happens all the time when he approaches the dugout on a foul pop? That's BS simply because its his play all the way. No one ever backed off a foul pop by the dugout because he thought someone was calling him off.

I'm kinda hoping that the Fenway crowds will yell "Mine" with every pitch delivered to A-Rod this weekend.

[HolyStitt]

I guess I am not too surprised that A-Rod did something like this after seeing him smack the ball out of a Red Sox first baseman's hand (Dan, was it Dougie?) to try and score some runs in the 2004 playoff series. My reaction to that move and this one are more in the realm of how pathetic people become when they are desperate to win.

On to another sad state of affairs, how about my Twins winning on Wednesday when the White Sox pitched Torii Hunter 4 straight balls with bases loaded.

A walk off walk!

[Aggie87]

I guess I am not too surprised that A-Rod did something like this after seeing him smack the ball out of a Red Sox first baseman's hand (Dan, was it Dougie?) to try and score some runs in the 2004 playoff series. My reaction to that move and this one are more in the realm of how pathetic people become when they are desperate to win.

You mean this one:

[Noj]

The Dodgers had a walk off walk a few games back with a bases loaded HBP. Win's a win! It hurts to be on the losing end of such a play, though.

I'm too young to have old-school baseball knowledge, but A-Rod's play does seem a bit chump to me. Then again, there's lots of things that I wouldn't do as a player myself, such as purposely throwing at a batter. Winning cheap isn't my thing.

[Big Al]

If it were anyone other than A-Fraud (or Bonds), we wouldn't even be having this conversation.

[donald byrd 4 EVA]

Changeup is the key to Hoffman's success

By Jerry Crasnick

ESPN.com

(Archive)

Updated: June 1, 2007, 5:31 PM ET

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PITTSBURGH -- Trevor Hoffman, baseball's career save leader with 498, is about to put the cherry on top. Sometime in the next week, he'll baffle a National or Dodger with a changeup and shake hands with his catcher in celebration of No. 500. The moment will be a tribute to longevity, consistency and Hoffman's ability to thrive while velocity-impaired.

Too bad the poor guy can't find a teammate to play catch with him.

Padres reliever Doug Brocail gave up last year after one too many brushes with the disabled list. Brocail was just returning from a coronary blockage, and he found that catching Hoffman's changeup was as pointless as chasing a fly without a swatter.

Donald Miralle/Getty Images

Trevor Hoffman, right, has been putting out fires for the Padres since 1993.

"I don't know if the heart problem made me lose some reaction, but it was scaring the hell out of me," Brocail said. "One second, the ball is at your chest. Then, you're just trying to get a glove on it to knock it away from your body. I have a broken glove hand, and if I had to catch him now, the movement alone would do in my fifth metacarpal."

Hoffman smiles at the revelation. For years, the running joke in the San Diego clubhouse is that teammates feared playing catch with him because they eventually got traded or sent to the minors. Hoffman's throwing partners had a more fleeting shelf life than Spinal Tap drummers.

"I can't think of anybody in particular," Hoffman said, "but over the years, guys I play catch with tend to disappear."

For the record, Hoffman now warms up with the San Diego trainers. They're doing a fine job of helping him maintain his touch.

At 39 years and eight months, Hoffman keeps finding ways to frustrate hitters. He ranks third in the league with 16 saves, and NL hitters are batting .171 against him. He's converted 12 straight saves covering 13 1/3 scoreless innings, with 10 strikeouts and one walk in that span.

Those numbers reflect the gaudy stats Hoffman has compiled during an illustrious career. He bests Mariano Rivera, the man many consider the greatest closer in history, in strikeouts and baserunners allowed per nine innings. And with his 89.6 percent conversion rate, Hoffman has one more blown save than Rivera (58 to 57) in 82 more opportunities.

"Heck, there are numbers inside of the numbers," Brocail said. Did you know, for example, that Hoffman recently appeared in his 803rd game with San Diego, breaking the record for games pitched with a single club? Walter Johnson of the Washington Senators and Elroy Face of the Pittsburgh Pirates are now tied for second with 802.

It's Hoffman's style to knock politely on the door of history. When he notched his 479th career save last September to break Lee Smith's record, a capacity crowd of 43,168 was on hand in San Diego. It was Sunday afternoon on the East Coast, and millions of baseball fans were either oblivious or mowing their lawns.

There was no national debate over whether Bud Selig should be in attendance. The commissioner called with his

Hall of Fame bound?

As Hoffman pursues the magic 500, the lack of buzz is palpable. It's due in part to ambivalence over the save, a statistic routinely derided as cheap by the media. When so many pitchers drive BMWs because they've put the clamps on 5-2 victories, skepticism naturally follows.

That's the cold, clinical, purely statistical argument. In the real world, unsettled closer situations can undermine seasons and produce chaos in abundance. That helps explain why Boston kept Jonathan Papelbon, a 15-18 game-winner-in-waiting, in the bullpen this season. And just ask Cleveland fans how much fun it was watching Fausto Carmona finish games in 2006.

"A lot of pitchers don't have the stomach for the role, but Trevor pitches with absolutely no fear," said Padres manager Bud Black. "He doesn't back down. He goes after the big boys, and he doesn't pitch around guys. He truly is the aggressor, and I think that's a great quality."

Trevor Hoffman

Relief Pitcher

San Diego Padres

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2007 Season Stats GM W-L SV ERA WHIP BAA

23 2-2 16 2.57 0.86 .171

That gunslinger mentality notwithstanding, Hoffman revels in his anonymity in San Diego. He freely admits that it's easier for him to work through the occasional hard times than it is for, say, Rivera or Billy Wagner in the fishbowl of New York.

While Rivera's legacy is enhanced by his October heroics, Hoffman has endured some painful hiccups on the national stage. He gave up a three-run homer to Scott Brosius in Game 3 of the 1998 World Series, and blew a save in the 2006 All-Star Game to cost the National League homefield advantage in the World Series.

Will those high-profile failures hurt Hoffman's Cooperstown chances? As an exercise in crystal-ball gazing, ESPN.com polled more than 60 Hall of Fame voters, and it appears Hoffman will avoid the anguish that plagued Bruce Sutter (who made it on his 13th try) and Goose Gossage and Smith, who are still on the ballot.

Out of 62 responses, 58 baseball writers said they plan to vote "yes" on Hoffman for Cooperstown. Four were undecided, and there wasn't a flat "no" in the bunch.

Dan Graziano of the Newark Star-Ledger points out that Hoffman has posted a sub-3.00 ERA every year but one since 1996, made five All-Star teams, and finished in the top six in Cy Young voting four times and in the top 10 in MVP voting twice.

"I don't think much of the save as a stat," Graziano said, "but I'm looking at a guy who's been a lockdown closer for more than a decade. Closers are a real and important part of the game, and either he or Rivera has been the best one for the past decade."

As Hoffman approaches 500, each day unfolds like a "this is your life" segment. This week, he passed through Pittsburgh, where Jim Tracy is manager and Jim Lett is the Pirates' bench coach.

Tracy managed Hoffman with Cincinnati's Double-A Chattanooga farm team in 1991, after Hoffman hit .212 as a shortstop for Class A Charleston (W.Va.) under Lett. It was Lett who suggested the Reds move him from infielder to pitcher after the 1990 season.

No one knows for sure how Hoffman's career would have unfolded without that plot twist, but it's possible he would have gone home and become a coach or physical education teacher.

"He was a good enough athlete, and the ball came out of his hand so easy," Lett said. "With his arm strength, we figured, 'What do we have to lose?' But who would have ever thought this would happen? It was like winning the lottery."

This weekend, Hoffman travels to Washington, home of general manager Jim Bowden. In 1992, Bowden made the regrettable decision to leave Hoffman off Cincinnati's 15-man expansion draft protected list. The Marlins selected him, then traded him to San Diego seven months later in a deal that brought Gary Sheffield to Florida.

Monument to durability

Hoffman has gone through various incarnations in San Diego. He once threw in the mid-90s, but hurt his shoulder in 1994 and learned to do more with less. He forever will be linked to the changeup in the same way Rivera has a claim on the cut fastball and Sutter is synonymous with the splitter. Since the changeup puts less strain on the arm than a split or hard slider, the pitch probably contributed to Hoffman's longevity.

"The amazing thing is how goofy some hitters look," Brocail said. "If you watch video of Trevor and slow it down, I'd swear to God you'd think his changeup was a knuckleball. It's there and gone. See ya. Bye."

With the exception of shoulder problems that limited him to nine innings in 2003, Hoffman has been remarkably durable. It's not by accident. Four hours before a game, you'll find him running in the outfield or doing stretching exercises with rubber tubing. He's usually clad in a light blue hospital smock that's practically welded to his body.

It was big news in San Diego recently when Black used Scott Linebrink to close a game against Milwaukee because Hoffman had a "cranky'' shoulder, but Hoffman returned for two straight saves against the Brewers. He recorded No. 498 Thursday in Pittsburgh.

The amazing thing is how goofy some hitters look. If you watch video of Trevor and slow it down, I'd swear to God you'd think his changeup was a knuckleball. It's there and gone. See ya. Bye.

Doug Brocail

Beyond the numbers, Hoffman defines professionalism in every way imaginable. He makes it a point to stand at his locker and hold himself accountable on the rare occasions when he fails. He's also a charity machine and a two-time winner of the Padres' Roberto Clemente Award.

Kevin Kouzmanoff, San Diego's rookie third baseman, emerged from the shower after a spring training game in Arizona and was stunned to see Hoffman, clad in a clubhouse attendant's shirt, gathering the dirty laundry and cleaning his teammates' spikes.

"I asked him, 'Hoffy, what are you doing?' '' Kouzmanoff said. "And he was like, 'I'm helping out whatever way I can.' "

When Hoffman broke Lee Smith's career save record in September, he made sure to tip his cap to Lett and Tracy in the Pittsburgh dugout. It was his way of thanking them for their role in jump-starting his career.

According to Lett, Hoffman hasn't changed one iota since he pitched in Charleston, W.Va. He enjoys a good prank and loves the thrill of the competition, and you always know what you're going to get -- right down to the "Hells Bells'' theme song when the bullpen gate swings open.

Forget the "specialist'' label. Bud Black pays Hoffman the ultimate tribute when he calls him a baseball player who just happens to pitch the ninth inning.

"There are going to be down times when you blow a save and doubt creeps into your head,'' Hoffman said. "That's when you have to be strong enough to know you've done something well over time and trust your stuff. You have to be your biggest fan.''

Hoffman takes a backseat to no one at the art of closing games. But if he plans to be his biggest fan, he'll have to get in line.

[Tim McG]

Finally, the Giant albatross formally known as Armando "A Locker Full of Excuses" Benitez is lifted from around our collective necks. Two balks and yer out!

We usher in the post train wreck era of the Man Who Couldn't Close a Door with the acquisition of 25 year-old RH long reliever in Randy Messenger. I patiently await the sanity to return to ATT Corporate Money Pit Park.

The Would be Closer is dead.

Long live the Messenger!

[sheldonm]

I guess I am not too surprised that A-Rod did something like this after seeing him smack the ball out of a Red Sox first baseman's hand (Dan, was it Dougie?) to try and score some runs in the 2004 playoff series. My reaction to that move and this one are more in the realm of how pathetic people become when they are desperate to win.

On to another sad state of affairs, how about my Twins winning on Wednesday when the White Sox pitched Torii Hunter 4 straight balls with bases loaded.

A walk off walk!

....it was Bronson!

[Quincy]

I'm amazed that people are defending him. There are plenty of "old school" ballplayers who are calling it bush league and most seem to think that the answer is a pitch in the ribs, either to the next batter or the next time you face the cheater.

Oh it's certainly not a common thing to do, but there are some players who didn't see what the big deal was.

Barry Bonds (yeah, I know) says "That's Toronto's fault. Catch the ball. Get over it."

Ozzie Guillen "I don't blame him, I would have done it too."

Who's more "old school" than Tommy Lasorda?

"He's allowed to say 'I got it. I got it,'" said former Dodgers manager Tommy Lasorda, who recalled a similar play when he was with Triple-A Montreal in the late 1950s or 1960.

"I was coaching first base in Miami _ two outs in the top of the ninth inning. We were losing by one run. We had a guy on second base," Lasorda recalled. "There was a foul ball. Gene Oliver was going over to catch it. I said, 'I got it! I got it!' He pulled back and the ball dropped. He's screaming at me. And the next pitch a guy hit a home run, and we won the game."

It depends on the manager, but it used to be that players had words that weren't like "I got it" or "mine" so as to not have this type of thing happen.

Too much crying in baseball nowadays.

[Dan Gould]

Well, number one, Lasorda is the only old timer to describe a time that it was done - in the minors. What he doesn't mention is the likelihood that it was after that game that he ended up with the plate in his head.

And he is flat out wrong to say he is "allowed" to say it. The rule says that the runner shall not cause "confusion" to the fielder or it is interference. There's no way anyone gets away with it.

Its flat out bush league play. I was listening to the Sox broadcast earlier, and Joe Castiglione made a fine observation:

Its hard imagining Joe DiMaggio or Ted Williams doing it. Or David Ortiz.

As far as I am concerned, that says it all.

[HolyStitt]

I guess I am not too surprised that A-Rod did something like this after seeing him smack the ball out of a Red Sox first baseman's hand (Dan, was it Dougie?) to try and score some runs in the 2004 playoff series.

....it was Bronson!

Until someone posted the picture I forgot that it was the pitcher not the first baseman.

[Chalupa]

16.00

[Patrick]

Amazing game at the Jake Friday night. Sold out crowd for Tribe/Tigers. Carmona v. Maroth. Detroit had lit up Carmona several times last season during his stint as closer. Carmona pitched okay but not great in Detroit last week, but didn't get it done Friday--5 earned runs in six innings. Tribe battled back from 1-5 to tie it at 5. Tom Mastny who has been reasonable as a setup guy then immediately gives up 4 more to Tigers. Tribe cuts the lead to 2 in the eighth, Tigers extend it back to 4 in the top of the ninth (Fernando Cabrera really struggling in Tribe pen). Then in the bottom of the ninth, Victor Martinez hits a 3-run homer to cut the lead to 1. Peralta doubles, and with two outs in the ninth, Todd Jones pitches around Trot Nixon to pitch to Josh Barfield. Barfield hits a game tying single. Delucci follows with a game winning single. 5 runs off of Todd Jones in the bottom of the ninth. Jones faces 12 batters and throws 46 pitches in one inning (last out of 8th plus 2 outs in ninth). 5 straight Cleveland wins against Detroit (...not counting Cavs/Pistons).

[Big Al]

Can this game get any crazier? Despite two errors and stranding SEVENTEEN at this point, the Rangers are still winning! And I take back every rotten thing I ever said about Kenny Lofton after that spectacular catch he made where he ran up the wall and caught the ball in the stands, robbing (I forget who was up) of a homer and doubling off another guy at first.

I'm going to bed. I've got a busy day in the morning. Hopefully when I check in tomorrow morning, Gagne will have closed out the ninth and the Rangers will have won.

And I'll win the lottery tomorrow.....