Let's Reopen Old Wounds!

[Aggie87]

However, given the treatment Bill McCloskey just got, I'd venture to say this place isn't the most "newbie friendly" place.

That is definitely true and something I am not happy about at all.

I think that also falls under Noj's comment about letting each poster stand for his own posts. Somebody like BN82 shows up, proclaiming he knows more than anyone else here, with far less experience than most, and he's gonna be called on it.

Bill's situation is a bit different, in that the conversation has been about an article he wrote, and that conversation has been going on long before he actually showed up on the board (yesterday) to sort of defend it. But he's also defending his words, which I think are calling us misogynistic as a whole, and I don't believe that to be true.

Other relatively new posters have joined in (or returned to the board), and seemingly fit in well.

How you approach an established group (whether in person or on the net) goes a long way in determining how well you will fit into that group.

[Christiern]

You are definitely imagining things in this case. Bill McCloskey came over because something he wrote elsewhere was brought up here (by Jim) and made the subject of a thread.

[Big Beat Steve]

When Bruce opened the door to Norah Jones, he slapped the label's integrity in the face. To borrow a thought from Obama, it is not the signing of Jones, per se, that should bother us, it is the mindset that allowed it to happen. I happen to also think that the subsequent signing of an over-hyped trumpeter was a reflection of misplaced judgement. I should also say that while sexism has left jazz with many scars, I think Norah Jones' poor reception had much more to do with her genre than it did with her gender.

How true!

[Shawn]

Okay, I stand corrected. But, I think Bill's little quote of Kevin's with "apparantly not" stuck at the end was a form of attack and that was what I responded to.

[Dan Gould]

Okay, I stand corrected. But, I think Bill's little quote of Kevin's with "apparantly not" stuck at the end was a form of attack and that was what I responded to.

you, me, Erik ...

[paul secor]

We're here now. The BN Board is dead.

I would hope that we can find more interesting topics to discuss.

[Christiern]

The problem that killed the BN board not only lives on, it has grown worse. Now the music business is severely wounded. If that is not an interesting--if sad--topic, I don't know what is.

[Jim Alfredson]

Okay, I stand corrected. But, I think Bill's little quote of Kevin's with "apparantly not" stuck at the end was a form of attack and that was what I responded to.

you, me, Erik ...

I didn't read it as an attack. If anything you should be upset at Kevin for his post.

I remember the last months of the BNBB quite vividly. It was a total free-for-all. Many people were begging for moderation since there hadn't been any in several months. Try not looking at it behind rose-colored glasses. The place was dying. It was a good thing they pulled the plug.

[Soul Stream]

Your comparison to the perceptions of the "top trumpet player" is meaningless, because Norah Jones wasn't run off of the Blue Note BB. But the experience here is that we tend to run off rude people, not women.

A reminder: yes, Norah Jones was "run off" the Blue Note board. I got it verified by Tom Evered afterward. She posted there, said something like "Hi. I'm glad you liked my CD," and shortly afterward, in the "Questions for Tomatbluenote" thread, Aric posted the follwing:

"Yeah singers always screw the band. My grandpa told me that his big band (Lee Konitz was on alto)had this chick singer that latter married Boyd Rayburn, and after gigs the band would gangbang her."

It went downhill from there. Too many posters not only laughed at Aric's comment, they added speculation as to who was gang-banging who. No woman I know would have been comfortable reading that thread and most definitely not Norah Jones.

That one thread had a LOT to do with Blue Note's decision to close that place down. I've related the story many times but it bears repeating. After Norah's Grammy awards show, several EMI mucky-mucks visited the Blue Note bulletin board to see what we were saying, saw this "singers always screw the band" stuff and absolutely flipped out. Their comment was something like, "We're paying FOR THIS?!?"

Ah...verification of what always seemed so obvious at the time and since. Sorry Kevin, I hadn't seen you say this previously.

[papsrus]

I don't think it is hard to argue that if Norah Jones actually played straight-ahead jazz piano, she would be under intense scrutiny to be one of the baddest pianist ever or else she'd be ridiculed. How many female jazz pianists are there that DON'T sing?

Myra Melford is at the top of my list of pianists. Marylin Crispell isn't far behind. So, my two favorite pianists are women. Neither is a singer. I'm listening lately to alto player Matana Roberts as well. It is worthy noting that all three of these players operate on the outer fringes somewhat -- more free players than straight ahead certainly. Someone mentioned earlier that the European free improv scene was more welcoming to women than straight ahead jazz. Maybe there's something to that.

... I know nothing about Norah Jones, I'm afraid.

[Christiern]

"... I know nothing about Norah Jones, I'm afraid"

Ah, what bliss such ignorance can bring....although she is 100 notches above Winehouse

[Christiern]

Bill, don't be turned off to "O" by a couple of misguided members.

[Dan Gould]

Okay, I stand corrected. But, I think Bill's little quote of Kevin's with "apparantly not" stuck at the end was a form of attack and that was what I responded to.

you, me, Erik ...

I didn't read it as an attack. If anything you should be upset at Kevin for his post.

I remember the last months of the BNBB quite vividly. It was a total free-for-all. Many people were begging for moderation since there hadn't been any in several months. Try not looking at it behind rose-colored glasses. The place was dying. It was a good thing they pulled the plug.

I don't deny any of that about the last days. I object to a broad brush painting a lot of people as members of an "old boy club" who reject women, particularly women not worthy of the famous Blue Note label. Bill can object all he wants but his broad brush statements are unmistakable both in his original article and in his posts to this thread. I've explained why gender had nothing to do with the reaction to Norah, he responded by asking about reactions to Hancock, Benson and Wes's forays into pop music. He doesn't acknowledge that he's wrong, he comes up with new points of contention.

[Christiern]

I don't agree that gender had nothing to do with the discomfort (to put t mildly), but I do believe that it had less to do with it than the fact that she simply was not a jazz artist.

[JSngry]

Hey, remember when Castro needed some breathing room & let all the criminals and loonies go free & then aimed e'ma ll at America?

Wasn't that a fun time for everybody?

[Kevin Bresnahan]

As a point of correction.

My "apparently not" was in response to the "comments of one poster" line. The other poster said that too many posters joined in. That is what my comment was commenting on: it was "apparently not" the "comments of one poster". I'm not sure how that is construed as an attack on anyone. I also for the record never said that I thought any one was misogynistic. What I did was quote a psychiatrist who pointed out that a male dominated forum often feels threatened by a female presence. This is a long way from saying someone is misogynistic. I will say that there seems to be a herd mentality here. It seems to me that a general comment on group dynamics is re-interpreted here as a direct and personal attack on specific individuals. I don't know any of you other than the exchange we have had here, except the one or two I recognize from the the AAJ forum. I don't believe I've said anything that can be called an attack on anyone, nor was there any intention to.

Any further misinterpretation of my words or motives will have to go unanswered by me.

Bill, I did not post what I posted to corroborate your article. I posted what I did to refute what Dan said about Norah Jones not being "run off the Blue Note BB". She most definitely did leave because of what some men posted about her.

As for this board and its mainly male make-up, I have to reiterate that I don't think this board would allow any kind of stuff like what happened at that old BN board. Generally, we're a pretty fun group. It's unfortunate that your first few posts got misinterpreted. I hope you hang around to discover that we're not a bad bunch.

Later,

Kevin

[JSngry]

"I use the Ace of Clubs to keep my baby in place" - "Ace Of Spades", OV Wright

We got any OV Wright fans on this board?

[JSngry]

Ain't nothin' that "simple", that's all I'm, sayin'.

Except for people who really are that simple.

[JSngry]

Let's Reopen Old Wounds!

Irony is not a lost art!

[Dan Gould]

On the positive side, this has to be a new record in how long Norah has been mentioned without anyone bringing up who her proud papa is.

I'm proud of you guys. Really I am.

[seeline]

I posted what I did to refute what Dan said about Norah Jones not being "run off the Blue Note BB". She most definitely did leave because of what some men posted about her.

As for this board and its mainly male make-up, I have to reiterate that I don't think this board would allow any kind of stuff like what happened at that old BN board. Generally, we're a pretty fun group. It's unfortunate that your first few posts got misinterpreted. I hope you hang around to discover that we're not a bad bunch.

Observation: if i were the subject of that kind of remark, I'd leave, too. (And be fully justified in doing so.)

The funny (as in "odd") thing: I never viewed jazz - and jazz fandom - as a "guy thing" until I began reading various jazz listservs and boards. Maybe that's because of my background as a kid (my mom loves jazz, had ambitions to be a professional musician at one time) + knowing many other women who love jazz and have been actively involved in every angle from promotion to DJing/running a jazz station to publishing to just buying records and going to live gigs... So the internet was a real shock in that respect - few to no women around, lots of misogynistic remarks, etc.

My feeling is that there are a lot of women out here who largely choose to ignore internet discussion boards, for whatever reasons. I've taken long breaks from them in the past myself, due to all kinds of things (misogynistic comments being one factor, but not the primary one).

I was hesitant to join this board and have found it to be, for the most part, far friendlier than I'd anticipated - but some of the things that have been said in this thread really give me pause - as a newb on this board, that is. (Would be true if I were a man.)

I hope this post serves as food for thought.

Best,

seeline

Edited March 4, 2008 by seeline

[JSngry]

This thread is over a year old and had lain dormant for a good while. It was reopened exactly why? So the author of the orignally quoted article (apparently an AAJ regular) could come in, call attention to themselves, and stir up some more of the same old shit? What else am I missing here?

I smell sabotage here. Call me crazy, but the previous reference to Castro was intended.

If I'm wrong, apologies. If not, hey.

[Christiern]

I don't agree that gender had nothing to do with the discomfort (to put t mildly), but I do believe that it had less to do with it than the fact that she simply was not a jazz artist.

Hancock, Benson and Wes's pop efforts did, indeed, turn of some, who saw it as a dilution of jazz or waste of worthy talent. I think Bill's point is that there was less of an uproar from those modulations into a lighter genre than we saw happening over Nora at the BN forum, and he attributes that to gender. I happen not to agree, but it is a fact that women have, through most of jazz's lifetime, been regarded as one might a 6-year-old harpsichordist: good, but with qualifications. The exceptions were the vocalists and pianist, the former were canaries, the latter were playing what was perceived as a feminine instrument. I recall a liner note by Billy Taylor where he "defended" his bring a pianist and felt compelled to inform the reader that he was married with children. That kind of silliness is on the wane, but still lurking.

Jim, I know you are running a desperate one-poster race for bbs immortality, but you started this thread, so please don't clutter it with frivolous posts (as I see it) that only serve to increase your 26 thousand plus figure.

[JSngry]

I posted what I did to refute what Dan said about Norah Jones not being "run off the Blue Note BB". She most definitely did leave because of what some men posted about her.

As for this board and its mainly male make-up, I have to reiterate that I don't think this board would allow any kind of stuff like what happened at that old BN board. Generally, we're a pretty fun group. It's unfortunate that your first few posts got misinterpreted. I hope you hang around to discover that we're not a bad bunch.

Observation: if i were the subject of that kind of remark, I'd leave, too. (And be fully justified in doing so.)

The funny (as in "odd") thing: I never viewed jazz - and jazz fandom - as a "guy thing" until I began reading various jazz listservs and boards. Maybe that's because of my background as a kid (my mom loves jazz, had ambitions to be a professional musician at one time) + knowing many other women who love jazz and have been actively involved in every angle from promotion to DJing/running a jazz station to publishing to just buying records and going to live gigs... So the internet was a real shock in that respect - few to no women around, lots of misogynistic remarks, etc.

My feeling is that there are a lot of women out here who largely choose to ignore internet discussion boards, for whatever reasons. I've taken long breaks from them in the past myself, due to all kinds of things (misogynistic comments being one factor, but not the primary one).

I was hesitant to join this board and have found it to be, for the most part, far friendlier than I'd anticipated - but some of the things that have been said in this thread really give me pause - as a newb on this board, that is. (Would be true if I were a man.)

I hope this post serves as food for thought.

Best,

seeline

You, btw, are in no ways included in the "Castro" remark, as your contributions have consistently been sensitive, intellegent, and totally "friendly" in spirit.

[JSngry]

Jim, I know you are running a desperate one-poster race for bbs immortality, but you started this thread, so please don't clutter it with frivolous posts (as I see it) that only serve to increase your 26 thousand plus figure.

Ok.