Let's Reopen Old Wounds!

[Shawn]

And if Nora Jones had been on another label and promoted as a jazz artists, would there also have been the outrage?

If her debut had come out on Verve I don't think anyone would have noticed or cared, that's what was expected of Verve at the time.

I didn't think it was an issue then and in hindsight I think it's pretty damn hilarious what an uproar it caused. Let's face it, the "Blue Note" that exists today isn't even REMOTELY the same label it was in 1965. So if they put out a Slayer album I wouldn't care. Apples and Oranges.

[7/4]

And if Nora Jones had been on another label and promoted as a jazz artists, would there also have been the outrage?

If her debut had come out on Verve I don't think anyone would have noticed or cared, that's what was expected of Verve at the time.

I didn't think it was an issue then and in hindsight I think it's pretty damn hilarious what an uproar it caused. Let's face it, the "Blue Note" that exists today isn't even REMOTELY the same label it was in 1965. So if they put out a Slayer album I wouldn't care. Apples and Oranges.

Same here. I always thought this was all kinda strange. Understandable, but strange.

[andybleaden]

that is true

nor like it was earlier or even a little later....never really had a fav period

Got my stuff on Horace in the fifties and 70's ...same with Lee Morgan and Donald Byrd and and and

[Dan Gould]

So...her music was not the issue. It was the fact that she was on Bluenote: that was the issue?

No, it was her music (very little jazz content) plus the label they chose to put her debut album on.

From a marketers standpoint, it is fascinating the amount of ownership and sense of identity many of you feel for this particular brand.

There have been interesting discussions here (and on the BNBB for that matter) about "Blue Note Fetishists" and the fact that great music was put out on many other labels at the same time. The fact remains that BN has a special appeal for a lot of jazz fans.

My examples were based on other artists who put out light jazz type works, not the label they were on.

And thus irrelevant to a discussion of BLUE NOTE its Bulletin Board and the reaction of members, old and new, to Norah Jones music.

I forget the name of the band at the moment, but Bluenote put out a Rap album a while ago. How did that go down? Did you feel as betrayed?

Are you speaking of the Madlib dude who remixed/fucked around with/ a bunch of Blue Note tunes? I think it made little point to the people here who are core customers of the label - many others who are interested in that sort of thing had their own takes on it. Had the release happened when the BNBB was still going strong, I suspect that the reaction might have been stronger, because of the way some people view the label.

And if Nora Jones had been on another label and promoted as a jazz artists, would there also have been the outrage?

I am sure there would have been, but again, this took place on the Blue Note board after Norah was released on the Blue Note label.

Now that we've answered some of your questions, will you kindly acknowledge that you were wrong in implying that objection by the "old boys club" to Norah was based on her gender?

Edited March 4, 2008 by Dan Gould

[Kevin Bresnahan]

Your comparison to the perceptions of the "top trumpet player" is meaningless, because Norah Jones wasn't run off of the Blue Note BB. But the experience here is that we tend to run off rude people, not women.

A reminder: yes, Norah Jones was "run off" the Blue Note board. I got it verified by Tom Evered afterward. She posted there, said something like "Hi. I'm glad you liked my CD," and shortly afterward, in the "Questions for Tomatbluenote" thread, Aric posted the follwing:

"Yeah singers always screw the band. My grandpa told me that his big band (Lee Konitz was on alto)had this chick singer that latter married Boyd Rayburn, and after gigs the band would gangbang her."

It went downhill from there. Too many posters not only laughed at Aric's comment, they added speculation as to who was gang-banging who. No woman I know would have been comfortable reading that thread and most definitely not Norah Jones.

That one thread had a LOT to do with Blue Note's decision to close that place down. I've related the story many times but it bears repeating. After Norah's Grammy awards show, several EMI mucky-mucks visited the Blue Note bulletin board to see what we were saying, saw this "singers always screw the band" stuff and absolutely flipped out. Their comment was something like, "We're paying FOR THIS?!?"

[Aggie87]

So...her music was not the issue. It was the fact that she was on Bluenote: that was the issue?

...

And if Nora Jones had been on another label and promoted as a jazz artists, would there also have been the outrage?

I'm going to quote my own post to respond to your question.

I still don't mind her music, but didn't feel at the time that it suited the BN label. Manhattan or one of the other affiliated labels maybe. Looking back now, it's easy to see that they got into the pop/R&B stuff after their success with Norah - Anita Baker, Amos Lee, The Birds and the Bees, etc.

So from my view, no the music was not the issue - it was that it was released on the BN label. And using the term "outrage" is going a bit overboard, IMO. There was disagreement about whether Jones belonged on BN, but as Ray said, it wasn't unanimous, and it wasn't an "outrage". Just a disagreement that the label was getting too far away from classic/contemporary jazz. IMO.

Edited March 4, 2008 by Aggie87

[andybleaden]

I think the post earlier about Blue Note in 2000+ being not like the Blue Note it was reissuing for us resonates with many people...but she didn't half shift a load of cds

Edited March 4, 2008 by andybleaden

[Aggie87]

"Now that we've answered some of your questions, will you kindly acknowledge that you were wrong in implying that objection by the "old boys club" to Norah was based on her gender?"

"A reminder: yes, Norah Jones was "run off" the Blue Note board. I got it verified by Tom Evered afterward. She posted there, said something like "Hi. I'm glad you liked my CD," and shortly afterward, in the "Questions for Tomatbluenote" thread, Aric posted the follwing:

"Yeah singers always screw the band. My grandpa told me that his big band (Lee Konitz was on alto)had this chick singer that latter married Boyd Rayburn, and after gigs the band would gangbang her.""

I would say that nothing said so far has altered my opinion. Reinforced it is more like it.

If you are judging all of us by the comments of one poster (Aric), you are mistaken. He does not represent the typical board member here, nor at the old BNBB.

[Aggie87]

I don't think you've been around this community long enough to draw conclusions like you seem to be doing.

If you are involved in data analysis as CEO of Email Data Source, Inc., I would hope you would want more than one person's anectodal comment as proof of a position which you seem to have pre-decided anyway. That hardly seems consistent with data analysis.

Aric's comments certainly do not represent mine, nor (I suspect) the majority of posters on this board.

[Dan Gould]

"If you are judging all of us by the comments of one poster (Aric), you are mistaken. He does not represent the typical board member here, nor at the old BNBB."

"It went downhill from there. Too many posters not only laughed at Aric's comment, they added speculation as to who was gang-banging who."

hmm...apparently not.

You are painting with an extraordinarily wide brush here, friend. And that's rather rude, I might add.

Norah's music was put out on BN because the label pres signed her and figured it would improve his bottom line.

A lot of BN fans didn't care for her music or didn't care for the fact that she was out on BN.

This had nothing whatsoever to do with her gender.

Just because a famously uncouth and childish member posted about "bands that gangbang the chick singer" and he wasn't unanimously attacked for it doesn't mean that misogyny was running rampant.

I don't think you are making a lot of friends here with your accusations.

[clifford_thornton]

No, Aric/chewy is not a typical dude, but that's why he's great! Frequent board users aren't going to represent the "middle-of-the-road" in society, rather the outliers. Thank god for that.

I can't speak on the maleness of message-board phenomena; it's true, and I'm not sure why.

One idea: I don't think men may need as much face-to-face interaction as women do in order to form/maintain social bonds. Beyond that, it's a sociologist's guess.

Edited March 4, 2008 by clifford_thornton

[Noj]

I like Norah's music in small doses. I have two of her albums. She has a nice voice.

Let each individual poster stand for his own posts. If there's one way to offend people, it's to paint them with a broad brush and make them guilty by association.

I'm sure if Norah had stuck around she would have found more than enough posters to relate to and share thoughts with in a civil manner.

[Shawn]

"If you are judging all of us by the comments of one poster (Aric), you are mistaken. He does not represent the typical board member here, nor at the old BNBB."

"It went downhill from there. Too many posters not only laughed at Aric's comment, they added speculation as to who was gang-banging who."

hmm...apparently not.

In the end it doesn't matter. The article I wrote was from years ago about a time a year before that. If you are asking if my opinion has changed about what I wrote, it hasn't. Why you should care what I think is beyond me. I just write it as I see it. The article was geared towards Internet Marketers, most of whom, if they are like the rest of the population, care little for jazz, but are interested in social networks and marketing to social networks. That was the basis of the article.

As a long time member of the old BNBB as well as the Big O...I gotta say that you are coming off as an unmitigated, narrow-minded jackass.

Every community (whether virtual or physical) is going to have some people that sometimes leave their common sense behind before they post something (Aric) and will naturally end up saying something to offend. However, you can not judge an entire community based solely on the village idiot.

[Tom Storer]

I wasn't around at the time and was unaware that there had been a thread involving vulgar speculation as to Norah Jones' supposed promiscuity, complete with guffaws from the gallery. Let's face it, given the male-dominant context of the board, that was indeed an example of rank sexism. One can hardly be surprised that a bunch of corporate suits (with their wallets in their pockets) got a bad impression if they happened to chance upon that the one time they glanced at the board. First impressions are often the only ones.

I guess the question, though, is what proportion of board traffic was represented by that thread. The board was unmoderated, so there is no way to prevent one fool from posting something offensive, nor others from guffawing. From what I know of this board in recent years--the inheritor of the Blue Note board--I do not believe it's a club of woman-haters by any means.

But Bill, when you wrote the article, were you aware of that thread? If so, why not cite it as an example instead of falling back on an "expert" who can blandly report that "jazz communities feel threatened by females"? It's the absolute lack of nuance that I noticed, as well as the "experts report" method of lending credence to a generalization. I don't suppose you remember who the expert was? I wouldn't mind reading his or her research.

[WorldB3]

hmmm the question is ...would the grey suits and corporate boys have ruined Blue Note despite what they saw after after N Jones success story. ...

I will put it another way

It was a long time since I bought a New artist release on Blue Note...like since Jimmy Smith and Stanley Turrentine did stuff in the late 80's....no...tell a lie I did get a Charlie Hunter record and the US3 stuff

How does that figure

I was given some Orphy Robinson which stays unplayed

Nothing they have done recently has been of interest ( new stuff new material)

Kenny Werner - Lawn Chair Society and Steve Kuhn - Live At Birdland were two of my favorite records last year. The Ron Carter was also very good. I thought it was a good year for Bluenote.

Edited March 4, 2008 by WorldB3

[Dan Gould]

"I gotta say that you are coming off as an unmitigated, narrow-minded jackass. "

I see the ad hominem attacks don't take long to get to on this board.

Don't worry. It is my last post.

No loss there, as you don't appear to know squat about jazz, and even less about the former members of the BNBB, whom you continue to pronounce judgments on with only the narrowest reed - Aric's sexism and a handful of other people's comments - to hang them on.

[clifford_thornton]

I'm not sure what I accused anyone of.

However, I do find it interesting that someone who makes crude comments to a female poster "is not a typical dude, but that's why he's great!"

Well, you don't know Aric and you don't know me, and you certainly don't know anyone else on this board (or that one).

Obviously you're not as with it as I was initially going to give you credit for.

[Jim Alfredson]

Wow, you folks sure are possessive. I'm quite disappointed in how this discussion has gone.

[Aggie87]

I'm not sure what I accused anyone of.

I think the implication that many may be drawing is that you seem to be saying we are misogynistic.

Let each individual poster stand for his own posts. If there's one way to offend people, it's to paint them with a broad brush and make them guilty by association.

I'm sure if Norah had stuck around she would have found more than enough posters to relate to and share thoughts with in a civil manner.

As usual, Noj seems to be a voice of reason, and I agree with all of his points above.

[Jim Alfredson]

FWIW, running this board has given me insight into how these kind of communities operate. I would agree fully with McCloskey that forums such as these are very male-dominated affairs. I am a member of at least 5 forums that I frequent regularly and they are all dominated by males. And any time you get a bunch of men together, the conversation invariably tends to get sidetracked into topics that 99% of those men would not repeat to their female counterparts. It's just the nature of the beast.

The infamous Babe Thread is a prime example. What did it have to do with jazz? Absolutely nothing. It was completely sexist and useless and yet there was quite an uproar when I deleted it.

Now, in fairness, jazz has always been a male dominated music. It is easy to argue that music in general is male dominated. How many women actually play instruments rather than just sing?

I don't think it is hard to argue that if Norah Jones actually played straight-ahead jazz piano, she would be under intense scrutiny to be one of the baddest pianist ever or else she'd be ridiculed. How many female jazz pianists are there that DON'T sing?

The backlash against her was simply because she was signed to Blue Note and a lot of people see Blue Note as some kind of Holy Grail of jazz greatness (they seem to forget that after it was bought by Liberty after Alfred Lion died, it released some serious turds).

What does it have to do with the BN board? Well, to say it was shut down because of an inherent fear of females is stretching things a bit. It was shut down because there was no moderation and as anyone who has any experience with the internet knows, no moderation means people will post (usually anonymously) anything they want, hiding behind their aliases. I remember Aric's comment and found it to be extremely distasteful. But McCloskey might not realize that he was banned from the BNBB twice and he's been banned from here once as well (he's back under a pseudonym).

A forum with no moderation gets ugly really quick. It tends to bring out the worst in people. Kevin's post is pretty much what I heard and is as close to the truth as you can get. The suits saw the site, saw the ugliness and were very upset.

And I agree with the ad hominen attacks. That's uncalled for. Let's keep things civil.

[Kevin Bresnahan]

I think Norah Jones could come here and post and not have too many problems. This board is a lot more "female friendly" than the old BN board.

However, given the treatment Bill McCloskey just got, I'd venture to say this place isn't the most "newbie friendly" place. :D

Kevin

[Jim Alfredson]

However, given the treatment Bill McCloskey just got, I'd venture to say this place isn't the most "newbie friendly" place.

That is definitely true and something I am not happy about at all.

[Christiern]

Shawn: "As a long time member of the old BNBB as well as the Big O...I gotta say that you are coming off as an unmitigated, narrow-minded jackass."

I'm not so sure that it doesn't take a jackass to call a fellow poster one--but I may be wrong.

That said, Blue Note was a great label (emphasis on past tense) that set an admirably high standard under its original ownership. It sank into the gutter when United Artists took it over and made a commendable comeback under Bruce Lundvall. Unfortunately, it failed to live up to its glorious past, and that is certainly--in part, at least--due to factors out of its control: a general deterioration in the music that BN had come to represent so well, a shift in focus from art to chart, and changing public taste. Today, Blue Note coasts along on an old reputation, featuring artists for whom Alfred Lion would probably not have opened the door ajar.

Blue Note, because it was such a fine, dedicated label, has developed somewhat of a cult following, but the height to which it is elevated is often unrealistic. Was Rudy the cat's meow of engineers? Of course not, and it is telling that he rarely--if ever--gets adulation for his Prestige work. As a producer, I worked with Rudy and liked what he did, but I was not any happier with his work than I was with that of, say, Ray Fowler. It never ceases to amaze me how subjective staunch BN fans often are.

When Bruce opened the door to Norah Jones, he slapped the label's integrity in the face. To borrow a thought from Obama, it is not the signing of Jones, per se, that should bother us, it is the mindset that allowed it to happen. I happen to also think that the subsequent signing of an over-hyped trumpeter was a reflection of misplaced judgement. I should also say that while sexism has left jazz with many scars, I think Norah Jones' poor reception had much more to do with her genre than it did with her gender.

Blue Note was, indeed, something special, but life goes on and when big corporations get a hold on anything special, they are know to quickly render that designation void. Worshipping at the shrine of Blue Note is ludicrous, i.m.o. It tends to give the music a back seat, and t hat also goes for the posters atSteve Hoffman's forum, who are so wrapped up in wave forms and the like that they often make the music secondary.

Listen to the artistry--that's all we need to do.

[Shawn]

Just to clarify something, I'm always happy when new members join and add to the community, the more the merrier. But there seems to be a plethora of folks running around here recently that seem to join with their only purpose being to stir up shit. Am I imagining this?

[Jim Alfredson]

Just to clarify something, I'm always happy when new members join and add to the community, the more the merrier. But there seems to be a plethora of folks running around here recently that seem to join with their only purpose being to stir up shit. Am I imagining this?

Yes, kind of. Quite a few new members have come over from AAJ, but only two have been a real problem.