What's really "rare."

[Sneakywax]

Hey gang -- joined the group during the "Diego Incident" and would like to stick around. Harkening back to my college days and the "Cs" I usually got in economics -- I recall the basic concept of supply and demand and how when supply was low prices were high. I know all bets are off when you are dealing with music and collectibles, but other than Lee Morgan's "Candy," I don't think I can recall seeing any of the "high-price blue notes" for a which another copy doesn't come up a few times a month -- Blue Train, Jutta Hipp, Undercurrent, the Hank Mobleys, etc. Same with the Prestiges -- even Saxophone Colossus (50th Street). So, what do you folks think are the truly rare, collectible records? With your permission, I would define these as good music, well recorded and hard to find. One I'd like to offer up is an original pressing of Telefunken Blues on Savoy. What's on your list?

Regards,

Brian

[Teasing the Korean]

Others may disagree, but one method I use to determine a record's rarity is the number of hits I get when I google it. Of course, if a record is very rare but legendary, it will no doubt get discussed on the internet.

[Jim R]

On the one hand, you'd think that the rarest of the rare would turn up for sale far less frequently than other LP's, however, because rarity tends to be a (though not the only) factor that drives up the price of a record, rare LP's may turn up more often than one would think, because people are trying to capitalize on their value.

Maybe that was too obvious, but I thought it was worth mentioning. I think that trying to figure out what's really rare based on watching the current market is fairly tricky. There are probably a lot of relatively common records that you don't see for sale that often, because they wouldn't command much $, but it would be a mistake to assume that they're rare.

In my experience (and I'll admit that I haven't been involved in the LP trade for about 15 years), it was always subjective when it came to people (dealers and such) giving opinions about which LP's were the hardest to find. So much about personal experience, which varies from year to year and from place to place. I suppose the really experienced dealers (Cohen, Leavitt, etc) might have a decent handle on which things are truly rare... maybe the best approach is to ask them. As we all know, people who really don't know much tend to abuse the term "rare", often for their own personal advantage.

Just some random thoughts.

[Teasing the Korean]

Good points. It is also worth mentioning that many of the old "rules" when it came to collectibility went out the window with the internet era.

[six string]

Doug Watkin's album At Large on the Transition label is supposed to be very rare. Small label, small number of lps pressed by a mainstay in the jazz bass department. Goldmine has it listed for $1000.00 in near mint condition. Here's something I will add to the discussion. I bought a reissue of this album from Classic for $30.00. Good deal, considering that you won't find a sealed copy of an original in your lifetime.

I will be honest and say I was a little disappointed in the music. I don't think it's a bad album by any means. It's a solid hardbop album, but if I had paid a lot of money for an original copy, I would have been a little disappointed. So, just because a record is considered rare doesn't necessarily mean that the music is as good or better than one that isn't so rare, or that you will prefer it over something less rare (and less expensive). Rare is sometimes just that; hard to find. On the other hand, I have some albums that are considered hard to find, but not worth a lot of money. So, rare doesn't always equate to big money either.

[Sneakywax]

On the one hand, you'd think that the rarest of the rare would turn up for sale far less frequently than other LP's, however, because rarity tends to be a (though not the only) factor that drives up the price of a record, rare LP's may turn up more often than one would think, because people are trying to capitalize on their value.

Those are some great points.

[Late]

Karl Berger

[clifford_thornton]

Don't have that one.

Seen it a few times and it didn't go for too much... maybe $40?

I have a number of pretty rare titles that I would not say are all that "in demand." The first Hans Dulfer on Heavy Soul? Serious LP, only a couple hundred pressed, but I don't think the demand is all that high. Same goes for the three privately-pressed Kees Hazevoet LPs. I have them all, and as he's not as major a figure in Euro free jazz as, say, Brotzmann, they don't seem to cause an eyelash to bat when they're offered (again, not all that frequently...).

[clifford_thornton]

I'd add that, by the same token, you can't spit on eBay without hitting a copy of a Milford Graves LP on either IPS or SRP. The hand-painted Yale shit is uncommon, but the rest are all over the place. Despite that fact, they're still expensive. I've had these things, traded them, and gotten them back with ease - yet Babi still seems to crack $300+ (and "RaRe!!!") with striking regularity. Whatever...

I would say that my disdain is not for the music - it's stand-alone awesome - but for the purported rarity and the price-gouging that ensues.

Edited February 20, 2007 by clifford_thornton

[Chuck Nessa]

Doug Watkin's album At Large on the Transition label is supposed to be very rare. Small label, small number of lps pressed by a mainstay in the jazz bass department. Goldmine has it listed for $1000.00 in near mint condition. Here's something I will add to the discussion. I bought a reissue of this album from Classic for $30.00. Good deal, considering that you won't find a sealed copy of an original in your lifetime.

I will be honest and say I was a little disappointed in the music. I don't think it's a bad album by any means. It's a solid hardbop album, but if I had paid a lot of money for an original copy, I would have been a little disappointed. So, just because a record is considered rare doesn't necessarily mean that the music is as good or better than one that isn't so rare, or that you will prefer it over something less rare (and less expensive). Rare is sometimes just that; hard to find. On the other hand, I have some albums that are considered hard to find, but not worth a lot of money. So, rare doesn't always equate to big money either.

First buy music. If you do that well your collection will be worth money.

Next - I sold an original of Watkins' Transition (missing one label) for $1000 12 years ago.

Next - I bought the BN twofer including the above music and 2 more Transition dates for about $20.

Now - think about it.

Another thing worth noting - Transitions were pressed of friggin' styrene!

Personally, I believe the "fetishism" for "originals" has little to do with music. I am interested in music. Call me stupid.

[clifford_thornton]

I'm not that particular about my BN/Prestige/whathaveyou pressings, as much of this material has been reissued frequently (and well) over the years.

When I started buying free jazz records (of the '60s and '70s, anyway), much less of that was on CD, and consequently I sought out vinyl. I'm not as picky these days about format, and have bought CD issues of this material as a sonic upgrade - hell, that Freedom and Unity is a pretty rank pressing. Hence, the UMS piece of aluminum does me just fine these days.

[alocispepraluger102]

'Personally, I believe the "fetishism" for "originals" has little to do with music. I am interested in music. Call me stupid.'

i love music.

i have never made a penny off 50 years of music i have collected nor do i want or need to, and when i die the stuff i love will probably go to the dump.

[clifford_thornton]

i have never made a penny off 50 years of music i have collected nor do i want or need to, and when i die the stuff i love will probably go to the dump.

There's a thing called "your local library." Donate it.

University libraries and music collections are also frequently in need of good stuff, especially jazz.

[Chuck Nessa]

There's a thing called "your local library." Donate it.

University libraries and music collections are also frequently in need of good stuff, especially jazz.

They throw out more than they keep. Not necessarily dictated by the collection at hand.

[(BB)]

According to GoodCooking.Com

This is very rare.

[alocispepraluger102]

i have never made a penny off 50 years of music i have collected nor do i want or need to, and when i die the stuff i love will probably go to the dump.

There's a thing called "your local library." Donate it.

University libraries and music collections are also frequently in need of good stuff, especially jazz.

hazen shumachers incredible collection ended up in europe, i hear.

[alocispepraluger102]

There's a thing called "your local library." Donate it.

University libraries and music collections are also frequently in need of good stuff, especially jazz.

They throw out more than they keep. Not necessarily dictated by the collection at hand.

my town's otherwise excellent library got rid of all their vinyl several years ago and didnt copy it.

[clifford_thornton]

There's a thing called "your local library." Donate it.

University libraries and music collections are also frequently in need of good stuff, especially jazz.

They throw out more than they keep. Not necessarily dictated by the collection at hand.

Maybe my second comment is a little more in keeping. That has been my experience so far, anyway.

[six string]

Doug Watkin's album At Large on the Transition label is supposed to be very rare. Small label, small number of lps pressed by a mainstay in the jazz bass department. Goldmine has it listed for $1000.00 in near mint condition. Here's something I will add to the discussion. I bought a reissue of this album from Classic for $30.00. Good deal, considering that you won't find a sealed copy of an original in your lifetime.

I will be honest and say I was a little disappointed in the music. I don't think it's a bad album by any means. It's a solid hardbop album, but if I had paid a lot of money for an original copy, I would have been a little disappointed. So, just because a record is considered rare doesn't necessarily mean that the music is as good or better than one that isn't so rare, or that you will prefer it over something less rare (and less expensive). Rare is sometimes just that; hard to find. On the other hand, I have some albums that are considered hard to find, but not worth a lot of money. So, rare doesn't always equate to big money either.

First buy music. If you do that well your collection will be worth money.

Next - I sold an original of Watkins' Transition (missing one label) for $1000 12 years ago.

Next - I bought the BN twofer including the above music and 2 more Transition dates for about $20.

Now - think about it.

Another thing worth noting - Transitions were pressed of friggin' styrene!

Personally, I believe the "fetishism" for "originals" has little to do with music. I am interested in music. Call me stupid.

First, I couldn't agree with you more. I'm a big fan of hardbop and I own a lot of music that features Doug Watkins, hence my interest in his solo output. I was a little disappointed with the MUSIC on At Large. Again as I mentioned above, not a bad album by any means, but not a great date IMHO. I prefer vinyl over cds most of the time, so I took a chance and bought the Classic version over the cd twofer. I know myself well enought that if I had bought the cd and loved At Large, I would have probably ended up buying the lp too which means I would be out $50.00.

I understand why you believe in this fetishism for originals but as I also stated above, the originals have the benefit of being pressed when the magnetic tape was in primo condition. Does that mean I would spend hundreds of dollars for an original? No, my pockets aren't that deep. What it does mean is that I keep my eyes open for originals that do pop up occasionally in places other than ebay and record stores. I bought several hundred jazz titles from a friend at 50 cents to a dollar a pop and got some great titles because he didn't want them anymore. So it is possible to own original Bluenote lps without paying through the nose.

I too am interested in the music and when I can find an original that I don't have to mortgage the house for, I buy it, but only if I want the music, not because it's an original.

[brownie]

First buy music. If you do that well your collection will be worth money.

This is what I have been doing for several decades. I have kept all the vinyls I purchased except for a couple of dozen LPs.

I know a number of those vinyls are valuable (the full collection of the albums issued by Charles Mingus, a lot of original Sun Ra Saturns, a number of BN Lexingtons and Prestige 50th in excellent condition, many more including that Milford Graves-Don Pullen...).

I intend to continue enjoying them for many years. I still have not finalised plans on what happens to them when I'll be gone! Still have time to take a decision!

[clifford_thornton]

As I've said before, it would have been nice to be the age I am now in the '60s (and with disposable income and a good town to buy vinyl in)...

[Hot Ptah]

There's a thing called "your local library." Donate it.

University libraries and music collections are also frequently in need of good stuff, especially jazz.

They throw out more than they keep. Not necessarily dictated by the collection at hand.

This is an interesting subject in and of itself. Dick Wright died less than ten years ago. He had been a major force in the jazz scenes in Kansas City and Lawrence, Kansas, for decades, teaching jazz history, hosting radio shows, announcing concerts, leading groups of jazz lovers. His 30,000+ LP collection was donated to the University of Kansas when he died. There was a long feature story in the Lawrence newspaper a few years later. The collection had arrived in poor order, with records in crates and paper bags, not organized. The University sorted out all of the records, alphabetized them, placed the vinyl in protective sleeves, and stored the collection in a humidity controlled room on sets of shelves. A library staff member was put in charge of administering the collection. Years after it was available to the public, not a single person had asked to borrow a record from it. The budget ran out for the administrator/watchdog for the collection. The University planned to store it in the room, unavailable to anyone, indefinitely--at least at the time of the article.

That really opened my eyes about the futility of the fantasy I had of being old and near death, donating my collection to a library, and being feted by the library as a great benefactor to all humanity because of my donation. It is far more likely that no one will want it, and my heirs will either set it on the curb for the garbage truck or they will pay someone to sell it on ebay for them.

Edited February 20, 2007 by Hot Ptah

[Teasing the Korean]

Geez, which is worse? Parting with your favorites while you're still alive, or imagining their fate after you check out?

[Jim R]

This is an interesting subject in and of itself. Dick Wright died less than ten years ago. He had been a major force in the jazz scenes in Kansas City and Lawrence, Kansas, for decades, teaching jazz history, hosting radio shows, announcing concerts, leading groups of jazz lovers. His 30,000+ LP collection was donated to the University of Kansas when he died. There was a long feature story in the Lawrence newspaper a few years later. The collection had arrived in poor order, with records in crates and paper bags, not organized. The University sorted out all of the records, alphabetized them, placed the vinyl in protective sleeves, and stored the collection in a humidity controlled room on sets of shelves. A library staff member was put in charge of administering the collection. Years after it was available to the public, not a single person had asked to borrow a record from it. The budget ran out for the administrator/watchdog for the collection. The University planned to store it in the room, unavailable to anyone, indefinitely--at least at the time of the article.

That really opened my eyes about the futility of the fantasy I had of being old and near death, donating my collection to a library, and being feted by the library as a great benefactor to all humanity because of my donation. It is far more likely that no one will want it, and my heirs will either set it on the curb for the garbage truck or they will pay someone to sell it on ebay for them.

The former University of Kansas staff member who administered the Wright collection is a member here, and of the Blue Note board before that, iirc. Brandon Burke. He used to post occasionally about his experience at K.U., but has of course moved on to other things, and hasn't posted as often lately. At any rate, that's interesting... my memory is foggy regarding the developments that occured there. I'm not sure I ever got the full story.

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

Rare = stuff no bugger wants. Here's a bunch of rare albums I've been playing this evening.

Souleymane Faye - Grand ass

Mamadou Maiga & Super Diamono - Reuw reuss

U C A S Band Jazz de Sedhiou a Paris - Saroo

U C A S Band Jazz de Sedhiou a Paris - Samaalaa

Assane Thiam - Li tama di joy waxla

MG