RVG of Traneing in sound question.

[MichL]

Bought this Coltrane title recently. This is the first edition of Traneing In I have bought, so cannot compare it to other masterings. I was a bit shocked how dull (compressed?) this cd sounded. I listened to this right after I listened to Sonny Rollins Plus 3 RVG and I thought I was having hearing problem. Sounded like a wool blanket was pulled in front of my speakers. My wife even agreed it sounded dull. Do all the cd masterings of Traneing In sound this way? Is the original tape in bad condition?

I found an on line review of this RVG on "AUDIOPHILE AUDITION" which raved about the sound. Rather strange.

Thank you for your comments.

Michael

Edited February 19, 2007 by MichL

[jazzkrow]

Bought this Coltrane title recently. This is the first edition of Traneing In I have bought, so cannot compare it to other masterings. I was a bit shocked how dull (compressed?) this cd sounded. I listened to this right after I listened to Sonny Rollins Plus 3 RVG and I thought I was having hearing problem. Sounded like a wool blanket was pulled in front of my speakers. My wife even agreed it sounded dull. Do all the cd masterings of Traneing In sound this way? Is the original tape in bad condition?

I found an on line review of this RVG on "AUDIOPHILE AUDITION" which raved about the sound. Rather strange.

Thank you for your comments.

Michael

Michael:

That's my son, Dan, who did THAT review on Audiophile Audition. Evidently, his system (read computer) is not up to par to your stereo system. He's not a huge jazz fan but loves Coltrane and writes reviews much better than his Dad as Dad is just a jazz fanatic and not a musician.....

My reviews on that site don't hold a candle to Dan's way with words.

Sorry the sound didn't please you. I'll have to give it a listen on my more upgraded stereo!

-Jeff

[relyles]

I have not seen the review, but it is strange that a review of a recording for a publication called "Audiophille Audition" would rave about sound heard through a computer system.

[J.A.W.]

I have not seen the review, but it is strange that a review of a recording for a publication called "Audiophille Audition" would rave about sound heard through a computer system.

My thoughts exactly.

[jazzkrow]

Normally, I DO use quality stereo equipment to review CDs-it just was my son's choice to do the Coltrane review-and he has good listening skills as a musician. Maybe you can read the review and judge it on its own merits first...

CD reviews are only a small part of the websites content. The owner/webmaster of the site reviews Audiophile equipment himself! Reviews of CDs-classical, world music, jazz etc. are done by individual reviewers that are fans of the music. It's the "ears" of the individual reviewer that determine sound quality.

Don't be so quick to make a judgment of a review JUST by the title of the website....

[relyles]

Believe me, it really is not my intent to be critical, judgmental and definately I do not want to start some kind of argument. Unfortunately, I can't read the review for myself at the moment, because I am reviewing the same CD for Jazz Improv magazine and prefer not to read another review until after mine is complete. I understand the website is about more than just a CD review. Please don't feel too offended. I was merely commenting on what I think many would find somewhat of a contradiction and I suspect no one would have even known that the comments about the sound quality were based on hearing the disc on a computer as opposed to what most would consider even entry level audiophile equipment if you had not mentioned them presumably in defense of the original poster's questioning of the positive comments about the sound quality. Wouldn't you at least concede that the comments about the sound quality lose some credibility/reliability to the reader now that we know how the music was heard?

Again, I don't want you or your son to get defensive. I do the vast majority of my listening in the car or through an inexpensive speaker system connected to my work computer.

Edited February 19, 2007 by relyles

[jazzkrow]

THANKS RELYLES-NO offense taken!

My son does have a stereo at home-but not of my quality. Funny thing, as a musician he hears things that as a mere mortal jazz fan, I don't catch. As the saying goes, "he has good ears!"

I just noticed him listening to the RVG of the Coltrane re-issue while he was doing his final review- and made the comment on that online here and then all hell broke loose.

Let me know what you think of his review AFTER you do yours-and we'll compare notes.

Some of my reviews are on that site currently as well.

thanks for your clarification!

-Jeff

[Claude]

The beautiful thing about the RVG remasters, as I mentioned before, is that the sound captured on CD is simply not the kind of sound usually found in a digital format. If you play a RVG remaster for a non-jazz fan, I guarantee you they will at least agree it sounds like what jazz is supposed to sound like: rich, warm, and a little muddy. The feel captured by Van Gelder's production helps restore classics like Traneing In to their groovy origins.

http://www.audaud.com/article.php?ArticleID=2458

Nice writing, but what does it say?

I have the DCC version of this disc, and it doesn't sound muddy it all (nor does it sound bright). I've heard a few Prestige RVG editions, and some sounded too compressed indeed. Compression is something that some people with limited listening time or equipment often don't notice. It gets fatigueing in the long run.

When it comes to the sound of reissues, I've found that commercial publications cannot be trusted. They ALWAYS prefer the newest editions. Maybe they cannot allow themselves to be critical about the sound, as their income depends on advertisement (notice that Audiophile Audition has a banner ad for the RVG series). When something's wrong with the sound, you'll have to read between the lines of the review to find it out. If a disc gets 3 stars for the sound (in a scale of 5), it means that it is unlistenable

Audiophile Auditition has this typical american cheerleading reviewing style (which has now been taken over by the european hif press as well) which makes for entertaining reading, but is not useful as a buying guide (I know that hifi components should never be bought based on reviews alone). Every product gets a clear recommendation, it's only the degree of enthusiasm of the reviewer that varies. So every buyer of the product will be comforted in his purchasing decision.

Jackie McLean - 4, 5, 6:

Add this latest RVG Prestige Remaster to the recommended list of upgrades to your collection. It's a special treat to have early Jackie McLean material back in fine remastered sound.

http://www.audaud.com/article.php?ArticleID=2456

This album was previously (in 2001) reissued as a K2 remaster. A comparision between those 2 CDs would have been most useful.

Sonny Rollins - Plus 4:

This was a spectacular session, and it's never sounded better, with Van Gelder's 24-bit remastering efforts.

http://www.audaud.com/article.php?ArticleID=2407

Better than the MFSL SACD?

Reviewer John Henry at least tried to substantiate his claims with a listening comparision in his "Cookin'" review (but he was lacking the necessary editions of this session do do a proper A/B comparision):

Moreover, the original analog tapes are being given a new lease on life via upgraded playback decks and remastering to 24-bit digital. Combined with the recent improvements in the mastering and pressing of all standard CDs, the sonics of this normally-priced series often matches that of both xrcds and SACDs which have been releases of some of these classics. For example, this CD was an improvement in clarity and impact over the old Fantasy CD I had of the album, and it was nearly identical to the Fantasy mono SACD released in 2004, except that Red Garland's piano sounds slightly less dulled/muffled on the SACD than on the CD. (I didn't have the exact same disc, but did have the "Relaxin'" disc, which was recorded at the same time with the same musicians. Along with "Workin'" & "Steamin'" - all came from the same two days of recording in 1956 at Van Gelder's!)

http://www.audaud.com/article.php?ArticleID=2392

[MichL]

>>I have the DCC version of this disc, and it doesn't sound muddy it all (nor does it sound bright). I've heard a few Prestige RVG editions, and some sounded too compressed indeed. Compression is something that some people with limited listening time or equipment often don't notice. It gets fatigueing in the long run.<<

Hi Claude:

Thanks for your reply. I may have to get the K2 remaster. I like the session, but the sound was below par for this RVG series. Of the Prestige RVGs I have bought I am pleased with them. They are improvements over the OJC mastering, but not necessarily the K2s or SACDs. The SACD of Dolphy's Out There I think sounds better--more dynamic and sense of ease--than the Prestige RVG. I also bought Dolphy's Outward Bound in this series. I compared it to a Japanese K2 remastered and it was pretty much a toss up.

I also agree with your assessment of Audiophile Auditions music reviews in general. Most online cd reviews on audiophile equipment review sites tend to be this way.

Michael

[Cliff Englewood]

I bought the RVG of Sonny Rollins - Plus 4 and did not notice any improvement over the 20bit OJC, if anything, it sounded slightly worse.

P.S. Somebody tell Ira Gitler to stop doing Liner Notes, he wasn't that good first time round and hasn't gotten any better with age.

[sheldonm]

I don't know about the rest of you but I don't have the time im my life nor the inclination to do a/b comparisons on every new re-issue.......make that any re-issue....have never done one, probably never will. It's very rare I buy a cd on the words of a critic anyway...but like reading them anyway.

(but he was lacking the necessary editions of this session do do a proper A/B comparision):

Mark~

[robert h.]

Agree! Life's too short to waste time obsessing over (meaningless) A-B comparisons of multiple masterings of a title.

Sure, audio mags tend to be cheerleaders and not terribly critical.

But so-called audiophile websites tend to be massive group think follower exercises and not any more reliable - witness the tossing around casually of terms like "compression" and some people's obsession with older issues of titles (as advocated by some on a particular engineer's vanity site).

Enjoy the music, for heaven's sake. The RVG's on Prestige are bloody great. On a really good system - and yes, I'm afraid I do have such - the depth, detail and realism are simply astonishing. Rudy's still one hell of a lot better than any armchair critics on an internet chat site.

[bertrand]

If you don't like Gitler's liner notes, you should see his lyrics to Gigi Gryce's 'Boxer's Blues'.

Bertrand.

[Claude]

I don't know about the rest of you but I don't have the time im my life nor the inclination to do a/b comparisons on every new re-issue.......make that any re-issue....have never done one, probably never will. It's very rare I buy a cd on the words of a critic anyway...but like reading them anyway.

(but he was lacking the necessary editions of this session do do a proper A/B comparision):

Mark~

I fully agree with that, as long as you don't write reviews in which you state that the new CD is the best sounding version. In that case you should have done comparisions beforehand, because some readers will rely on your judgement.

Edited February 20, 2007 by Claude

[Kyo]

P.S. Somebody tell Ira Gitler to stop doing Liner Notes, he wasn't that good first time round and hasn't gotten any better with age.

Seriously. Just yesterday I was annoyed by some of his original liner notes

for some Blue Note RVGs, but at least in that case you always get a decent

"A New Look at ..." essay to go with them. I saw that Gitler was doing the new

liner notes for the Prestige RVGs, read one of them (bad as ever!) and thought

"there goes one reason to buy a reissue of previously available material".

[MichL]

Hi Robert:

No offense but isn't your post,along with some others, Thread Crapping! Of course the music in Traneing In is wonderful, but I was supprised by the sound quality. All Prestige RVGs I have gotten have been very good. Some complain they tend to be too hot, but I don't really hear it. I propably used the wrong term in compression. I guess it is more like a turncation of the higher frequencies, noticible on the cymbals.

I hope RVG continues to put out more remasters for BN and Prestige. Just wish they would issue SACDs, but these will do.

Happy listening.

Michael

[sheldonm]

Hi Robert:

No offense but isn't your post,along with some others, Thread Crapping! Of course the music in Traneing In is wonderful, but I was supprised by the sound quality. All Prestige RVGs I have gotten have been very good. Some complain they tend to be too hot, but I don't really hear it. I propably used the wrong term in compression. I guess it is more like a turncation of the higher frequencies, noticible on the cymbals.

I hope RVG continues to put out more remasters for BN and Prestige. Just wish they would issue SACDs, but these will do.

Happy listening.

Michael

...with every new member comes new terminology!

[Aggie87]

Thread crapping is a term that they use on that "particular engineer's vanity site" for posts in a thread that don't support the comments by the original poster.

For some reason, they don't like that over there. Differences of opinion and being able to post them are much more welcome here, it seems. Threads are generally much healthier here (IMO) because we are allowed to express what we want, for the most part.

[Claude]

Thread crapping is a term that they use on that "particular engineer's vanity site" for posts in a thread that don't support the comments by the original poster.

Not really. "Thread crapping" is when somebody posts an opinion which is off-topic or suggests that the subject of the thread isn't worth discussing.

So when someone opens a thread asking about the sound of a recording, and someone else answers that sound quality doesn't matter because the music is so great, that's "thread crapping", although the term may be too gross for what happened in this thread.

BTW, we're still miles away from the discussions on the "other forum", where they are are comparing 43 different pressings of "Dark side of the moon" ...

[Aggie87]

I've seen threads over there where the subject is band X's new album, and someone posts that they don't like it, and the next comment shows a picture of a dog going to the bathroom.

I think your description generally makes more sense than mine though, Claude.

[RDK]

Thread crapping is a term that they use on that "particular engineer's vanity site" for posts in a thread that don't support the comments by the original poster.

For some reason, they don't like that over there. Differences of opinion and being able to post them are much more welcome here, it seems. Threads are generally much healthier here (IMO) because we are allowed to express what we want, for the most part.

Don't disagree about the general commentary re: Hoffman's site (no need to beat around the bush about whose site you're refering to), but one could easily call Organissimo a "particular band's vanity site" as well...

[Aggie87]

Don't disagree about the general commentary re: Hoffman's site (no need to beat around the bush about whose site you're refering to), but one could easily call Organissimo a "particular band's vanity site" as well...

Very true - I was just repeating Robert's description of the SH Forum from his earlier post.

[robert h.]

Hi Robert:

No offense but isn't your post,along with some others, Thread Crapping! Of course the music in Traneing In is wonderful, but I was supprised by the sound quality. All Prestige RVGs I have gotten have been very good. Some complain they tend to be too hot, but I don't really hear it. I propably used the wrong term in compression. I guess it is more like a turncation of the higher frequencies, noticible on the cymbals.

I hope RVG continues to put out more remasters for BN and Prestige. Just wish they would issue SACDs, but these will do.

Happy listening.

Michael

No Michael, it's not thread crapping, that is when a rather gross hijacking of a thread for an unrelated agenda occurs.

I don't find RVG's truncate the highs, quite the contrary, I find they are incredibly open on top. Some stereos can't handle that, though.

SACD is a dead format. It was dead from the start pretty much, but now is really only a minor format that will see some classical titles and the odd audiophile disc released, nothing of a more general nature.

Someone below mentions that, like the mastering personality's site, this site could be considered a particular band's 'vanity site'. Very true, however, that is where the similarities end, as this board is very lightly moderated and not even slightly censored to protect or promote the host personality, and there is little of the group think and cultish aspects of that site.

Anyone care to start a Beatles Remastering thread?

Edited February 20, 2007 by robert h.

[MichL]

[RDK]

btw, Thread Crapping ® goes on here all the time - we just don't normally care about it.