Guitar purchase advice.....

[Cliff Englewood]

.....with this thing of beauty; the Herb Ellis ES-165, Wine Red

I can get it for a sort of decent price, so does anyone have one, anyone played one, anyone think they should be avoided at all costs, whatever????

I did have a little try on one without plugging it in and it sounded fairly good, but any info/feedback would be appreciated.

[Jim R]

I've never played one, but it's a lovely-looking axe. To me, that's a nice dark cherry red. I don't understand why Gibson has gone to calling it "wine red". When they originally began using that term in the 70's, it was a much darker color... not quite purple, but with much more blue in it. Anyway, I've always loved cherry red Gibsons (335/345/355's, L5CT's, custom-order L5's, Johnny Smiths, Super 400's, etc).

I haven't even read up on this Herb Ellis model yet. Obviously, it's got a lot in common with the ES-175, but the pickup appears to be a Johnny Smith type mini humbucker... (?). Do you know what the scale length is? I would have thought 24 3/4, which is always a comfortable thing, imo.

May I ask what this is going to set you back? I wonder how the price would compare to an L4CES, for example (similar design/appearance, except the L4 would of course have a spruce top).

I'm a loyal Gibson fan from way back, and although I generally prefer vintage guitars to new guitars, this model looks like a winner. Gibsons tend to be relatively expensive, but they're great investments.

[7/4]

I haven't even read up on this Herb Ellis model yet. Obviously, it's got a lot in common with the ES-175, but the pickup appears to be a Johnny Smith type mini humbucker... (?).

floating p/u, it's screwed into the pick guard, not the body.

[Jim R]

I haven't even read up on this Herb Ellis model yet. Obviously, it's got a lot in common with the ES-175, but the pickup appears to be a Johnny Smith type mini humbucker... (?).

floating p/u, it's screwed into the pick guard, not the body.

Right- I'm wondering if it's much different in design (if at all) from a J.S. pickup. Nice that they're mounting it to the pickguard rather than the end of the neck, btw. To an old school type like me, it seems a little strange to see a floating pickup on a guitar with maple top, but I know it's been done before (the old Gibson Crest model might have been one of the first, iirc).

[Sundog]

FYI- Average street price appears to be $2,400. Nice guitar. Practically speaking, I'm not a fan of floating pickups, but still nice guitar.

[Cliff Englewood]

Link: Herb Ellis ES-165

These are the specs:

Herb Ellis ES-165

Manufactured in: Memphis, TN

BODY

Size: 16" wide x 20.5" long x 3.5" thick

Top Species: Curly Maple/Poplar/Maple laminate

Back Species: Curly Maple/Poplar/Maple laminate

Rim Species: Curly Maple/Poplar/Maple laminate

Binding: Multi-ply top, single-ply back

NECK

Species: Mahogany

Profile: Standard 175

Peghead Pitch: 17°

Thickness at 1st fret: 0.635"

Thickness at 12th fret: 0.780"

Heel Length: 0.625"

Neck Joint Location: 14th fret

Headstock Inlay: Holly

FINGERBOARD

Species: Rosewood

Scale length: 243/4"

Total Length: 17.321"

Nut Width: 111/16"

Width at 12th fret: 2.062"

Frets: 20

Inlays: Pearloid split Parallelogram

Binding: Single-ply

HARDWARE

Plating Finish: Gold

Bridge: ABR

Tailpiece: Old Style 175

Knobs: Gold tophat

Tuners: Grover keystone

ELECTRONICS

Neck Pickup: Floating Jazz, Johnny Smith pickup with gold cover

Controls: Single volume control on pickguard

CASE

Exterior: Black Faux Alligator

Interior: Deep Green Velour

Silkscreen: 'Gibson Memphis' name plate

STRINGS

Brite Wires .010-.046

I reckon I might be able to get it for around €2200 -> €2000, which is huge I know, but considering that a no frills ES-175 is over a grand more, it's probably a good price.

The problem is, like most things there is no variety in the stuff available here, it's either Gibson, Fender or generic, no name, made in China kinda shit.

I was thinking this is a way to get close to owning a vintage Gibson without actually buying a vintage Gibson!!!

I really like that 50's Jazz Guitar sound, just kinda pure and no frills and I was thinking this one might make it easier to attain.

[Herb]

It's a very good guitar, I don't think the ES-175 is really any better. I have the same floating pickup on my LeGrand, it tooks some getting used to and amp adjustmnents, but I love it!

[Z-Man]

I would hold out for something with a spruce top. The maple laminate won't give you the warmth of spruce that, IMHO, is critical for a jazz box.

One more piece of advice - NEVER spend that kind of dough on a guitar without playing it first.

[Cliff Englewood]

I'm starting to think this might be too good to be true, certinly when you compare it to the prices of some of these; Gibson Jazz Guitars

I mean a 1997 ES-175 is actually more, and that's hardly a classic year.

Herb, what kind of problems did you have with your "Floater"?

[Sundog]

All other things being equal, it's been my experience that guitars with floating pickups tend to "feedback" more easily than guitars with top mounted pickups. You can definately work around this any number of ways, which I'm sure Herb can comment on since he obviously has had to deal with this situation.

Not that you've asked, but I think floating pickups are overrated with respect to their ability to produce a more natural sound. Theoretically they better translate the tonal characteristics of the guitar body, since the top can vibrate more freely. IMO there are way too many other factors involved for it to be that simple, and more often than not, floating pickups don't add enough to justify all the other hassles. Of course this is just my cents, and your "mileage" could vary greatly depending on your specific playing situation. Just some things to consider.

[Herb]

The biggest "problem" I had to deal with was tonal difference from standard humbucker amp settings. The mini bucker is considerably brighter than a big 'bucker. The reason the guitars with floaters feedback more quickly than top mounts isn't the pickup. It's the fact that the body is uncut and fully acoustic, therefore more resonant and sensitive to vibration. Top mounted p-ups are also screwed down as well as cut into the top and then set with mounting rings that also act as vibration dampeners. These are also the same reasons the floaters are able to pick up a more natural acoustic sound. I emailed Joe a tune we recorded after I first got the Twin Classic 15 and hooked it up to the LeGrand two or three years ago, and I believe he commented about its "airy" and natural tone. Remember, Joe?

[Hardbopjazz]

I played the es-165 for about 12 years. When I got it, I hated it. The sound sucked. The fretboard didn't feel nice. I had a guitar repairman do work on the fretboard. I didn't have much of a choice being left-handed, so I went with that model. It's the only left-handed Gibson makes. Once I got the guitar back, it sang. Real nice sound from that point on. I've sold it 3 years back. It was sunburst color. Still, my first love was my Charlie Christian model. Crica 1940. It was the one with the 3 screws on the body. I was a dope and sold that to by the es-165.

[Cliff Englewood]

If you don't mind me asking Hardbopjazz, WHY, OH WHY DID YOU SELL A 1940S CHARLIE CHRISTIAN MODEL???????

I would actually kill for one of those.

Edited February 16, 2007 by Cliff Englewood

[GregN]

Stromberg Newport

I have one of these and it is amazing. Played it only once, as, well, I have too many guitars for one thing. And I wanted something more like what Joe has, with P-90s so I got the Monterey too.

It is a blem and I paid 900 for it just a few months back. They are normally 1200.00. I will sell this for 650.00 plus shipping, if anyone is interested.

I have my sights set on some studio monitors at the moment.

[Joe G]

I emailed Joe a tune we recorded after I first got the Twin Classic 15 and hooked it up to the LeGrand two or three years ago, and I believe he commented about its "airy" and natural tone. Remember, Joe?

I don't remember my comments, but I do remember a damn fine guitar tone!

Stromberg Newport

I have one of these and it is amazing. Played it only once, as, well, I have too many guitars for one thing. And I wanted something more like what Joe has, with P-90s so I got the Monterey too.

It is a blem and I paid 900 for it just a few months back. They are normally 1200.00. I will sell this for 650.00 plus shipping, if anyone is interested.

I have my sights set on some studio monitors at the moment.

I'm starting to think all the Stromberg's are "blems". I was talking about these guitars with Fareed Haque, a Stromberg endorser (or is it endorsee?), and I thought his description was apt: they aren't meant to be a work of Art, just a good solid guitar that you won't be afraid to take out on a gig.

[Joe G]

Re: floating humbuckers, I've got a Hofner Jazzica Custom with one. It's different, that's for sure. There are some things I love about that guitar, but the amplified sound is tricky to deal with, for the reasons Herb mentioned. F-hole plugs solve the feedback problem pretty well. Dynamically, the notes really pop out at you at times, but I miss the smooth sustain. For my style and preferences, I most likely won't buy another jazz box w/a floating humbucker. On electric, I'm more of a semi-hollow body guy. That sounds weird.

Sorry I don't have any input for Cliff on that very nice looking guitar. Hope it works out!

[Jim R]

The more I think about it, the axe in question is a Gibson, and it's red... Get it!!

For your viewing pleasure, a gallery of gorgeous (red) Gibsons...

'65 Super 400CES

'58 L5-CT (aka "George Gobel" model)

'59 Gobel w/ a Bigsby

2002 L5CES

2002 L4CES

[Cliff Englewood]

Nice pics there Jim, where did you get them?

I've given the axe in question 2 or 3 quick goes and I'm becoming less enamoured with it, just little things like the finish not being quite what it should be, things like the inlays.

Also, even though this will sound stupid as I haven't even bought the thing yet, I would be concerned about the re-sale value of such a model. I mean even if Herb died, and I really hope he doesn't, I don't think the re-sale value would shoot up for a guitar with such specific specs.

However........ I have also spotted one of these in another shop, the legend that is the ES-175, it's over a grand more but....

What's that song that would be totally appropriate for my current situation, I think it's, "I Fall In Love Too Easily"

I think I just have Gibson envy.

[Jim R]

Cliff, for the images I just used Google's image search, a couple of favorite guitar sites, and browsed www.gbase.com

I think Gibsons generally hold their value quite well, but I guess you never know with a new guitar. Maybe you'll come across a vintage beauty at a nice price.

[Sundog]

You might also want to check out Heritage Guitars. For my money some of the best made, most playable, and best sounding guitars. Superb craftmenship, much better made than late model Gibsons IMO (it's really not even close).

[Cliff Englewood]

It's just I'm starting to think that the ES-165 is just a potential ES-175 that doesn't quite make the quality control/grade required for the ES-175 price.

Anyone hear of a ES-335 "Studio", there's one is available second hand, I don't have any real details on it.

[Cliff Englewood]

Checked out the Heritage Guitars Website, they look great, don't know if I'd be able to get them in Ireland though.

[Soul Stream]

From a guy that worked in a Pawnshop/Music Store growing up.... Never buy a new guitar. There are so many used guitars at better prices. One thing I learned about guitar players/owners, most guitars they buy don't automatically make them sound like Wes Montgomery (or Hendrix, or Van Halen or whoever).... so they quickly sell them and try again....and again...and again.

[Hardbopjazz]

If you don't mind me asking Hardbopjazz, WHY, OH WHY DID YOU SELL A 1940S CHARLIE CHRISTIAN MODEL???????

I would actually kill for one of those.

I was stupid. That's all I could say. It was also a lefthanded mode which makes it more rare. Don't ask what I sold it for.