mikeweil Posted February 6, 2007 Report Share Posted February 6, 2007 (edited) That Zawinul's ego might be a little oversized is not news. When downbeat gave "Heavy Weather" a one star review, he went apeshit like a primadonna that had someone step on her gown. I think that was Mr. Gone. Guy Yes. I have the issue in my basement, with the cover story, "Storms Over 'Mr. Gone.'" I have it on the staircase shelves ..... sorry, my mistake - I edited my post above. Edited February 6, 2007 by mikeweil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rockefeller center Posted February 6, 2007 Report Share Posted February 6, 2007 (edited) http://img53.imageshack.us/img53/1927/p14rx3.jpg http://img53.imageshack.us/img53/1710/p15ld6.jpg http://img529.imageshack.us/img529/2648/p16kk7.jpg http://img529.imageshack.us/img529/4141/p44fok4.jpg http://img529.imageshack.us/img529/1159/p45vz9.jpg Edited February 6, 2007 by rockefeller center Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hot Ptah Posted February 6, 2007 Report Share Posted February 6, 2007 The down beat article about the "Mr. Gone" album made me think--there is no jazz group, or CD release, which would create this type of controversy today. Another way to look at it is that Weather Report and its series of albums were not nearly as much of a big deal as down beat made it seem. Still, it is odd to think that any one CD release today would create a magazine cover story with controversy about the way that the CD was reviewed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Alfredson Posted February 6, 2007 Report Share Posted February 6, 2007 Cool article. Thanks for posting, rc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GA Russell Posted February 6, 2007 Report Share Posted February 6, 2007 I remember a quote from Orrin Keepnews: Joe Zawinul is the best motherfucking pianist in the world. If you don't believe me, just ask him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GA Russell Posted February 6, 2007 Report Share Posted February 6, 2007 By the way, I had the pleasure of interviewing Joe about 1969 for my college radio station, when he was still with Cannonball's band. He was very nice, and not at all egotistical. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7/4 Posted February 6, 2007 Report Share Posted February 6, 2007 By the way, I had the pleasure of interviewing Joe about 1969 for my college radio station, when he was still with Cannonball's band. He was very nice, and not at all egotistical. When did he go off the deep end? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fasstrack Posted February 6, 2007 Author Report Share Posted February 6, 2007 (edited) As someone who has little (a few of those Cannonball records) to no (everything subsequent) use for Zawinul, yeah, I'd say he's got a helluva an ego. I'd rather hear Barry Harris "imitate" any day. I dug him in those days. The record with Frog, Soulmates, is a m asterpiece. Great Joe, great Ben, Great Thad. To put a qualifier on my earlier comments---I wanted to avoid talking about music (so I won't answer your Barry v. Joe gambit) I have to say for clarification mostly that listening agian Weather Report to me is a bit turgid and pompous. Very little holds up. Also a guy I'm staying with here in Holland played a Zawinul Syndicated world tour CD and it also sort of bored my ass off. Again, I say this for for, er, clarification purposes....yeah, yeah. That's it.... Edited February 6, 2007 by fasstrack Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fasstrack Posted February 6, 2007 Author Report Share Posted February 6, 2007 "That's when I went home and threw out all my records. Because why should I imitate an imitator (presumably of Bud Powell?)" Is he wrong? It doesn't mean Barry is a bad player (he's a monster) but there are stylists and there are innovators. Zawinul didn't want to be a stylist, he wanted to innovate and so he did. Simple as that. It doesn't mean Barry's music is any less valid in the general sense, it just means that Zawinul didn't want to go down that route. Thankfully, he lived up to his own expectations of himself! I really don't agree with this. You don't 'choose' to innovate.' You evolve. Otherwise it could very well end up being awfully self-indulgent. To me the proof of and in part the definition of 'innovation' is usefulness to other people. That's why we call them trailblazers, right. I really mistrust this thing of wanting to innovate and then poof it happens. Real individuality is very, very rare. I've known a lot of guys that sang that song and their music didn't hold up. Again, there has to be a use of the innovation because it replaces and improves something that came before and outlived its usefulness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fasstrack Posted February 6, 2007 Author Report Share Posted February 6, 2007 How do you know it was just in regards to Barry Harris? Unless fasstrack's quote is incorrect, Zawinul says that he threw away "all my records". For the record: it was in Jazziz (a BS rag if ever there was one) in 2000 (1999?). Some kind of 'looking back on Jazz's 1st century' deal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Alfredson Posted February 6, 2007 Report Share Posted February 6, 2007 I really don't agree with this. You don't 'choose' to innovate.' You evolve. Otherwise it could very well end up being awfully self-indulgent. To me the proof of and in part the definition of 'innovation' is usefulness to other people. That's why we call them trailblazers, right. Sure, but trailblazers are sometimes not fully understood or appreciated right away. As far as choosing to innovate, I think it is more of a personal decision to "forget everything you know" and start from scratch. It seems to me that is what Zawinul did. As Jim states, all that came before is still in there but it comes out as spirit rather than imitation. I really mistrust this thing of wanting to innovate and then poof it happens. Real individuality is very, very rare. I've known a lot of guys that sang that song and their music didn't hold up. Again, there has to be a use of the innovation because it replaces and improves something that came before and outlived its usefulness. I don't necessarily agree with that. I don't think any kind of music needs to replace any other kind. They can all co-exist just fine. As for people who try to innovate and fail, I'm sure there are plenty. That's why a talent like Zawinul is special. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest youmustbe Posted February 6, 2007 Report Share Posted February 6, 2007 It has nothing to do with 'innovation'....it's about a man wanting to have a wife, have children, take the opportunities available to him musically, socially, economically, culturally. Since when is he obligated to stay in one place all his life in order to please the one fan who might come accros a record 30-40 years later? And now that we are in the 21st Century, for someone to still maintain that Weather Report, Chick, Miles, Herbie, et al were 'wrong' is ludicrous! That's like saying that Bartok or Starvinsky are 'noise' and why doesn't everyone still compose like Mozart. How many of you are still friends with your best buddies in High School? Or have the same job, or the same tastes in Music, Art, Food etc.? Why do you expect Artists to be any different? If you don't like where they go, don't follow them! It's not their problem, it's yours! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted February 6, 2007 Report Share Posted February 6, 2007 As someone who has little (a few of those Cannonball records) to no (everything subsequent) use for Zawinul, yeah, I'd say he's got a helluva an ego. I'd rather hear Barry Harris "imitate" any day. I dug him in those days. The record with Frog, Soulmates, is a m asterpiece. Great Joe, great Ben, Great Thad. To put a qualifier on my earlier comments---I wanted to avoid talking about music (so I won't answer your Barry v. Joe gambit) I have to say for clarification mostly that listening agian Weather Report to me is a bit turgid and pompous. Very little holds up. Also a guy I'm staying with here in Holland played a Zawinul Syndicated world tour CD and it also sort of bored my ass off. Again, I say this for for, er, clarification purposes....yeah, yeah. That's it.... Well there you go. You don't particularly like where Zawinul went. Fair enough, but are you sure that's not coloring your other opinions? I mean, any decent musician (and I stress musician because I don't expect non-musicians to have an interest in too much beyond whether or not they like the way something hits them) should be able to look at Zawinul's post-Cannonball music and recognize that it's not just a bunch of flashy formulaic easy bullshit. There's plenty of meat there, whether or not its a type of meat that's to your liking. Now, if you, as a musician who I'm sure recognizes the various elements that go into a composition, can't at least hear that much, then I just have to say that you got your head up your ass, which would offer a feasible enough explanation of why your ears would be full of shit. "That's when I went home and threw out all my records. Because why should I imitate an imitator (presumably of Bud Powell?)" Is he wrong? It doesn't mean Barry is a bad player (he's a monster) but there are stylists and there are innovators. Zawinul didn't want to be a stylist, he wanted to innovate and so he did. Simple as that. It doesn't mean Barry's music is any less valid in the general sense, it just means that Zawinul didn't want to go down that route. Thankfully, he lived up to his own expectations of himself! I really don't agree with this. You don't 'choose' to innovate.' You evolve. Otherwise it could very well end up being awfully self-indulgent. To me the proof of and in part the definition of 'innovation' is usefulness to other people. That's why we call them trailblazers, right. I really mistrust this thing of wanting to innovate and then poof it happens. Real individuality is very, very rare. I've known a lot of guys that sang that song and their music didn't hold up. Again, there has to be a use of the innovation because it replaces and improves something that came before and outlived its usefulness. And that, I thhink, is one of the biggest lies of the post-Wynton generation, that one shouldn't "choose" to "innovate" because it's something that you can't make happen. Well, no, you can't force it, but you can seek it by challenging yourself to go beyond what you already know. Remember Miles' dictum to "don't play what you know. Play what you don't know"? Whatever happened to that? No, this whole, "I'll explore what's already known because pursuing my own individuality is going to be a dead end anyway" thing is a cop-out masquerading as "humility". Even if you'll never be an "innovator", you owe it to yourself to at least be an individual. And this fatalism towards accomplishing wven that little bit of not too much is what's allowed a lot of boring people with no ambitions beyond becoming competent craftsmen to kid themselves and the world at large into thinking that it's some sort of major accomplishment to to stand pat and just polish what's already been polished. That's a caretaker's job, nothing more and nothing less. It sure ain't the stuff that makes for progress in music or, more to the point, in life. Of course you can't "choose" to innovate. You either have it or you don't. But you sure as hell can choose to dig inside yourself to see what's in there beyond what's already been put there by history. I mean, sure, it's a "challenge" to perfect one's own abilities in a pre-existing paradigm, but let's be real - pretty much all the questions have already been answered, and the "challenge" mostly lies in getting the fingers to do the work. No small challenge, that, but if you already got a map, somebody else has done the really hard work. Don't get me wrong, I respect the hell out of craft & craftsmanship (and I have real issues w/people who try to "move ahead" wthout it), but it really pisses me off when I see craftsmanship equated with spirit. They're not at all the same thing, and this implicit contention that they are is nothing but a goddamned motherfucking LIE. A spirit that allows itself to be content with "mere" competence is a spirit that is content to leave things as they are, and that can be for only one of two reasons that I can see - either the way things are are already to your liking and you don't want to be "upset" or else you're at root, a coward who's afraid to find out what's really inside you. (and I'm using "you" rhetorically here, no personal directiveness intended) If you reached the first zone after doing a lot of searching & discovering (like, say, Horace Silver), hey, more power to you then, you've earned it (as long as you (hopefully) continue to evolve through refining and don't just turn into a regurgitator living off your past glories). But otherwise, it's a concession that to one degree or you're "done" as a growing, actively evolving human spirit. And quite possibly you never took the first steps towards even realizing that you could be such a thing. You're just going to be one of those people who accepts your role as defined by somebody other than yourself and who goes about the business of being a happy servant to a master who you chose w/o first exploring all the options (especially the ones that may or may not reside within yourself). Volunteered Slavery. Fuck that. Whatever one's opinions are of Zawinul's music (and for the record, I'm a big fan of a lot of WR, as well as that live Syndicate thing, but find a lot of "failures" along the way as well), I'd think that it must be noted that he was not somebody who chose to accept somebody else's definition of who/what he "should" be, and that alone makes him a hero of mine, as it does damn near every "jazz musician" who's worth a flying fuck in my book. He's stayed treu to his own definition of himself, even when the results weren't what they should have been. And when they were (more than often enoug imo), he accomplished something that the "craftsmen" of the world never can, will, or maybe even be able to conceive of - he built a house to live in that was of his own making. Some people rent forever (and DAMN is the joke on them...). Some people buy pre-owned and leave it as it is (oh well...). Some people buy pre-owned & rennovate (not a bad deal there, if you can pull it off). Some people buy new and either do or don't keep it fresh after they do (America is the land of opportunity, even if the opportunity is to get somewhere and stop). But a few people take up the challenge to design and build what they want how they want it. That's the Old World/Pioneer spirit at its finest if you ask me (especially when no indiginous peoples are exterminated, and I sure as hell don't see Zawinul "exterminating" Barry Harris or anybody else), and to hear all this talk that it's not even a goal worth pursuing in the first place tells me a lot about why the Jazz Cave continues to get mustier and mustier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted February 6, 2007 Report Share Posted February 6, 2007 It has nothing to do with 'innovation'....it's about a man wanting to have a wife, have children, take the opportunities available to him musically, socially, economically, culturally. Ok, so the guy wants to be a functional human being in the world he lives in. What does any of that have to do with jazz? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest youmustbe Posted February 6, 2007 Report Share Posted February 6, 2007 No more than your life. Why do you want to 'control' another man's 'creative' life? That's what it's all about. If you think he 'sold out' leave him be. What's he supposed to do? Play forever with the 'Cannonball Tribute Band' so some guy like you can go hear him and fanatsize about 'Jazz'? I realize that 99% of the posts on this board, including mine, are pure bullshit...Hot air to pass the time,,,...But I don't understand why so many of you become so obsessed with people that you do not personally know? Why not go all the way and worry about what Britney, or Paris or Beyonce are doing this very moment instead of someone like Joe Zawinul....Or agonize why he made the decisions about music, life, that he made almost 40 years ago, especially, knowing Joe, having been his friend as well as booking him,..... Like he could give a shit what you people think! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted February 6, 2007 Report Share Posted February 6, 2007 .But I don't understand why so many of you become so obsessed with people that you do not personally know? ....Or agonize why he made the decisions about music, life, that he made almost 40 years ago... Well, ya' know, some people's choices make other people uncomfortable because daring to dream, much less acting on the dream, scares the shit out of them... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rockefeller center Posted February 6, 2007 Report Share Posted February 6, 2007 I realize that 99% of the posts on this board, including mine, are pure bullshit...Hot air to pass the time Exactly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Kart Posted February 7, 2007 Report Share Posted February 7, 2007 Leaving aside the question of how big Joe Z's ego is, the going off on Wynton thing probably had more to do with J@LC's longstanding but recently abrogated (or temporized) ban against booking any group that used electronic instruments. This came into play most notably when a George Russell Orchestra concert at J@LC was cancelled after management (read Wynton) learned that Russell's outfit included an electronic bassist. Wynton looking down his nose at/pulling rank on George Russell -- Jeez! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Kart Posted February 7, 2007 Report Share Posted February 7, 2007 From a June 2003 Village Voice story on Russell: "Russell was stung when Jazz at Lincoln Center canceled plans for a 70th birthday concert because he uses electric bass. Understandable maybe in 1952, but in 1992?" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Friedman Posted February 7, 2007 Report Share Posted February 7, 2007 .But I don't understand why so many of you become so obsessed with people that you do not personally know? ....Or agonize why he made the decisions about music, life, that he made almost 40 years ago... Well, ya' know, some people's choices make other people uncomfortable because daring to dream, much less acting on the dream, scares the shit out of them... Jim, That may be true for some, but I find it to be a gross overgeneralization. I can only speak for myself, but it has nothing to do with being scared. Any musician certainly has the right to go in any direction that they choose. However, my concern is for the music to speak to me. If it does, I am pleased and continue to give it my listening time. If the music is not to my taste, then it will no longer get much, if any, attention from me. I don't begrudge Joe the right to go in a direction different from what I like. But I so very much enjoyed some of his playing with Cannonball and Ben Webster that I had hoped to hear much more of that playing I dug so much. It was disappointing to me that he never made a swinging trio album with perhaps the Cannonball rhythm section. However once Zawinul moved in a different direction I gave my attention to others that were far more to my personal taste. The only reason this diverse commentary has taken place is because it looked as if Joe was being disrespectful to Barry Harris (One of my alltime favorites) as well as to others who played in a style he no longer chose to pursue. A number of posts came to Joe's defense by, in a number of cases, suggesting that Joe was a marvelous innovator who made important contributions to the music. I don't happen to see him in that light, but hey, different strokes... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Gould Posted February 7, 2007 Report Share Posted February 7, 2007 .But I don't understand why so many of you become so obsessed with people that you do not personally know? ....Or agonize why he made the decisions about music, life, that he made almost 40 years ago... Well, ya' know, some people's choices make other people uncomfortable because daring to dream, much less acting on the dream, scares the shit out of them... Jim, That may be true for some, but I find it to be a gross overgeneralization. I can only speak for myself, but it has nothing to do with being scared. Any musician certainly has the right to go in any direction that they choose. However, my concern is for the music to speak to me. If it does, I am pleased and continue to give it my listening time. If the music is not to my taste, then it will no longer get much, if any, attention from me. I don't begrudge Joe the right to go in a direction different from what I like. But I so very much enjoyed some of his playing with Cannonball and Ben Webster that I had hoped to hear much more of that playing I dug so much. It was disappointing to me that he never made a swinging trio album with perhaps the Cannonball rhythm section. However once Zawinul moved in a different direction I gave my attention to others that were far more to my personal taste. The only reason this diverse commentary has taken place is because it looked as if Joe was being disrespectful to Barry Harris (One of my alltime favorites) as well as to others who played in a style he no longer chose to pursue. A number of posts came to Joe's defense by, in a number of cases, suggesting that Joe was a marvelous innovator who made important contributions to the music. I don't happen to see him in that light, but hey, different strokes... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted February 7, 2007 Report Share Posted February 7, 2007 And I have no problem with any of that, coming from non-musicians. But musicians, even the ones who "stand pat" for whatever reason, should be able to recognize the validity and integrity of musics that they themselves do not necessarily particiapte in. I have a very difficult time with those who can't/don't/won't do that, because if you can't recognize that type of thing as a matter of general principal, then what kind of specific choices are you making for yourself? That was my point. No ill-will towards non-musicians simply liking what they like intended. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted February 7, 2007 Report Share Posted February 7, 2007 It was disappointing to me that he never made a swinging trio album with perhaps the Cannonball rhythm section. Well, there's always Money In The Pocket Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeweil Posted February 7, 2007 Report Share Posted February 7, 2007 ... there is a trio LP! From the Fresh Sound website: To You With Love Joe Zawinul Trio Featuring: Joe Zawinul (p), George Tucker (b), Frankie Dunlop (d), Ray Barretto (cgas) REFERENCE: FSRCD 1633 BAR CODE: - PRICE: 9.50 € Music journalism defines him a "Legend". It may be a word overused but there isn't truly a more appropriate way to describe keyboardist/composer Joe Zawinul. Austrian born, Joe Zawinul emigrated to the US in 1959 where he played with Maynard Ferguson and the great Dinah Washington before joining alto saxophonist great Cannonball Adderley in 1961 for nine years. Zawinul then moved on to a brief but fateful encounter and collaboration with Miles Davis, just at the time Miles was moving into the electric arena. In 1970, Zawinul and saxophonist Wayne Shorter put together what was to become the most important jazz group of the ‘70s and beyond, Weather Report. Bandmembers came and went, including Miroslav Vitous, Alphonso Johnson, Jaco Pastorius, Victor Bailey, Peter Erskine and Omar Hakim. At age 73, Joe Zawinul is still leading the way and has something fresh to say. A few months after his arrival in NYC in 1959, Zawinul got the chance to record the present album, the first time since arriving in United States as a leader of his own trio. Tracklisting: 1. I Should Care (Weston-Strodahl-Cahn) 3:16 2. Easy Living (Rainger-Robin) 3:24 3. Please Send Me Someone To Love (Mayfield) 4:14 4. It Might As Well Be Spring (Rodgers-Hammerstein II) 3:02 5. Love For Sale (Porter) 4:12 6. Squeeze Me (Ellington) 3:50 7. Greensleeves (Trad.) piano solo 8. My One And Only Love (Wood-Mellin) 3:40 9. The Masquerade Is Over (Wrubel-Magidson) 2:57 10. Sweet And Lovely (Arnheim-Tobias-Lemare) Recorded in NYC, September 1959 Ray Barretto plays on tracks #1,2,3,5,6,8 and 9. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe G Posted February 7, 2007 Report Share Posted February 7, 2007 To Dan Gould and Peter Friedman, with Love. signed, Joe Zawinul. :rsmile: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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