Question - Woody Herman Woody's Winner

[tranemonk]

Okay I'm listening to this single now and seriously digging it...

My question is this...

How representative (or not) is this record of his stuff (particularly I'm thinking about the Mosaic set The Complete Columbia Recordings of Woody Herman(45-47) #223)?.... I know these are 20 years apart...

Of course I know about Woody Herman... but I've stayed away from buying his stuff since I don't know it well...

I got Woody's Winners thinking it would give me an idea of his stuff... and I really like this record!!!

[jazzbo]

WELL to me, they're QUITE different.

Both are really great swinging things. . .but different.

[JSngry]

Same spirit, different players from different times.

[gmonahan]

"Woody's Winners" is representative of Woody's mid-60s band. Herman was fairly famous for not looking back. While he would play songs associated with the classic period, like "Northwest Passage" and "Caldonia," he liked constantly to update them. Thus, the Fantasy recordings for the 70s are far different from the Columbia and Phillips recordings of the 60s, which are different from the Capitol stuff from the 50s, etc. Woody's own clarinet and vocals were constants, but he loved surrounding himself with younger musicians. Kept him young. At least that's what he told me when I was a kid and saw him live around 1970. I had an old 78 of "Blue Flame" for him to autograph. He got a kick out of it, but told me--gently--much of what I've written in this post, and a listen to any of his records pretty well bears him out.

[BruceH]

If you get no other Woody, you've gotta get "Four Brothers," "Early Autumn," and "Blue Flame."

[BruceH]

Also, if you like Woody's Winners you'll probably like Woody Herman-1963, an album that was re-issued on CD not long ago.

[sidewinder]

Worth also searching for the 'Jazz Hoot' LP put out by CBS around 1974. That one has more material from Basin St West plus studio material from that vintage. One of the earliest LPs I ever bought.

First time I saw Woody's band he had Lyle Mays on piano. Talk about keeping things contemporary ! From what I recall the avarage age of the players must have been 18 or 19.

[John Tapscott]

Worth also searching for the 'Jazz Hoot' LP put out by CBS around 1974. That one has more material from Basin St West plus studio material from that vintage. One of the earliest LPs I ever bought.

First time I saw Woody's band he had Lyle Mays on piano. Talk about keeping things contemporary ! From what I recall the avarage age of the players must have been 18 or 19.

Probably closer to 25. The hair styles of the time probably made them look younger. Frank Tiberi would have been around 50 and most of the guys had just come out of college.

Woody was never content just to recycle the old things. He was always incorporating new things into the book. "Giant Steps" (Fantasy) from 1973 is excellent, as are the last two recordings Herman made with the Herd - "50th Anniversary Tour" (1986 - Concord) and "Woody's Gold Star" (1987 - Concord).

BTW I noticed yesterday in a newspaper listing that Woody and the Herd were one of the the half-time "acts" at the 1973 Super Bowl. Mercer Ellington a couple of years later. Neat.

Edited February 5, 2007 by John Tapscott

[DukeCity]

There was a brief discussion of this side back in December, when FreeForAll selected this as his AOTW. FFA's comments on the record are right on the money AFAIC. And FFA has the insider's view of things, since he played on the band and is recorded on the 50th Anniversary album and "Woody's Gold Star" that John Tapscott mentioned. Perhaps FFA will drop in and comment here?

[Hot Ptah]

I just got this Mosaic Single and it is a very exciting big band album, one of my favorite Woody Herman albums ever. It is a lot better than I thought it might be. I love the spot where Mary Lou Williams sits in.

I saw Woody Herman around 1982 or 1983, and it was quite good, but not as exciting as this album.

I also saw Chase live in 1972 and it would have been something to see Bill Chase in Woody Herman's band--but I was too young for that then. He plays on this Mosaic single and it is very interesting to hear him in the big band context.

[DMP]

Woody Herman at the Super Bowl! Ha! Wardrobe problems? (I saw him once after the races at Belmont, with Tina Turner.)

[ghost of miles]

Worth also searching for the 'Jazz Hoot' LP put out by CBS around 1974. That one has more material from Basin St West plus studio material from that vintage.

I think that extra Basin Street West material shows up on the Mosaic reissue (though not the studio material of which you speak).

[John Tapscott]

I just got this Mosaic Single and it is a very exciting big band album, one of my favorite Woody Herman albums ever. It is a lot better than I thought it might be. I love the spot where Mary Lou Williams sits in.

I know it can throw you off, but "Mary Lou Williams" was apparently one way Woody referred to Nat Pierce. Not quite sure what the inside joke was there. But my understanding is that it's Nat soloing there, not Mary Lou.

[Hot Ptah]

I just got this Mosaic Single and it is a very exciting big band album, one of my favorite Woody Herman albums ever. It is a lot better than I thought it might be. I love the spot where Mary Lou Williams sits in.

I know it can throw you off, but "Mary Lou Williams" was apparently one way Woody referred to Nat Pierce. Not quite sure what the inside joke was there. But my understanding is that it's Nat soloing there, not Mary Lou.

Thanks for letting me know! I wondered why she was not mentioned in the credits.

[JSngry]

Woody should have called him "Ernie Kovacs"...

[JSngry]

I picked this up b/c it was about to go extinct, and...I dunno...I loved the band just before this, but this one seems not quite broke in yet...some really awkward phrasing on some things, like the charts are still new-ish and/or people are not "in a good place", if you know what I mean...and no, I don't expect Basie or anything, I know what Woody's band sounded like, but compare this to the Phillips stuff, which is really together, everybody's on the same page, and this band just doesn't sound that way to me now. I say "now" because it's been a few decades since I really hear this record and I really liked it then. Now....maybe not so much? It kinda makes me uncomfortable at times...Did Jake Hanna & Phil Wilson not being there leave that big a hole?

[king ubu]

I can relate to that very much ... it's a mighty fine and swinging album, but something that's there on the Philips albums is definitely lacking here. Couldn't say quite what it was, but that's how I always heard it.

[TedR]

I just got this Mosaic Single and it is a very exciting big band album, one of my favorite Woody Herman albums ever. It is a lot better than I thought it might be. I love the spot where Mary Lou Williams sits in.

I saw Woody Herman around 1982 or 1983, and it was quite good, but not as exciting as this album.

I also saw Chase live in 1972 and it would have been something to see Bill Chase in Woody Herman's band--but I was too young for that then. He plays on this Mosaic single and it is very interesting to hear him in the big band context.

Bill Chase was also in Maynard Ferguson's big band in the late 50's. The Mosaic Roulette Maynard Ferguson has the recordings with Chase in the trumpet section.

[John Tapscott]

I picked this up b/c it was about to go extinct, and...I dunno...I loved the band just before this, but this one seems not quite broke in yet...some really awkward phrasing on some things, like the charts are still new-ish and/or people are not "in a good place", if you know what I mean...and no, I don't expect Basie or anything, I know what Woody's band sounded like, but compare this to the Phillips stuff, which is really together, everybody's on the same page, and this band just doesn't sound that way to me now. I say "now" because it's been a few decades since I really hear this record and I really liked it then. Now....maybe not so much? It kinda makes me uncomfortable at times...Did Jake Hanna & Phil Wilson not being there leave that big a hole?

Respect your opinion Jim, but I don't hear what you'e hearing at all. IMHO the equal if not better than the Philips recordings which I really love BTW. And you would think no one could possibly follow Jake Hanna and be as effective, but again IMHO, Ronnie Zito does a terrific job! But I agree that Phil Wilson's absence leaves a hole.

[JSngry]

I was surprised at my reaction, to be honest. I just didn't feel that there was consensus about where the pocket was at all times, not just in the sections,m but in the whole band. Sometimes, not always. I'll not "blame" Zito, but the thing about Jake Hanna in that band was that, yeah, he was very stylized, and not necessarily "hip", but it was a thing where everybody else knew where the pocket was, and by god, it was ALWAYS going to be there, so be there or else, you know? Hanna was always a little "metronomic", not necessarily "swinging", but him being that way created a very swinging pocket for the band. One of those delicious contradictions of chemistry, opposites attracting and actually mating.

But it might have just been some new(er) guys in the band who hadn't quite gelled yet, and if you look to your lead trumpeter as your ultimate phraser-in-chief, then, hey, Bill Chase was still The Man in this band. It just feels like sometimes he's having to pull some guys along. Or it might have been the venue..you know how "jazz fans" and "big band fans" have this weird tension of only partial overlap sometimes...people coming to see "Woody Herman" and people coming to see Woody Herman's band in the same room...that can be less than groovy, if you want to feel it like that.

Or maybe I just wasn't in the mood for this record yesterday. Seems odd...I was playing the Phillips 1964 no too long ago and really digging it. And no matter what, Sal Nestico was a true warrior. Much love for Sal Nestico here.

[John Tapscott]

I was surprised at my reaction, to be honest. I just didn't feel that there was consensus about where the pocket was at all times, not just in the sections,m but in the whole band. Sometimes, not always. I'll not "blame" Zito, but the thing about Jake Hanna in that band was that, yeah, he was very stylized, and not necessarily "hip", but it was a thing where everybody else knew where the pocket was, and by god, it was ALWAYS going to be there, so be there or else, you know? Hanna was always a little "metronomic", not necessarily "swinging", but him being that way created a very swinging pocket for the band. One of those delicious contradictions of chemistry, opposites attracting and actually mating.

But it might have just been some new(er) guys in the band who hadn't quite gelled yet, and if you look to your lead trumpeter as your ultimate phraser-in-chief, then, hey, Bill Chase was still The Man in this band. It just feels like sometimes he's having to pull some guys along. Or it might have been the venue..you know how "jazz fans" and "big band fans" have this weird tension of only partial overlap sometimes...people coming to see "Woody Herman" and people coming to see Woody Herman's band in the same room...that can be less than groovy, if you want to feel it like that.

Or maybe I just wasn't in the mood for this record yesterday. Seems odd...I was playing the Phillips 1964 no too long ago and really digging it. And no matter what, Sal Nestico was a true warrior. Much love for Sal Nestico here.

You know what - that whole idea of being "in the mood" for a certain record at a certain time, even one you've dug in the past, is kind of interesting (and weird sometimes). But we're not machines. The muse comes and goes. This AM I was listening to "Everybody Digs Bill Evans" a record which I've "dug" in the past. But today it just didn't connect with me at all. I'm sure it will again in the future, but not today for some reason.

Edited February 7, 2013 by John Tapscott

[JSngry]

Yeah, I think it's a good thing that not everything works all the time. That would be a little, as you suggest, mechanical, robotic, programmed, whatever.

It can also be a pain in the ass, because after a while, you end up with buttloads full of stuff that you think you want to get rid of only to go through it and look at it and say ehhhhh.....maybe not just yet....and then next thing you know, your family is wondering where all the walls went...

[gmonahan]

I've always particularly liked this album. Indeed, it's my favorite Woody Herman record, and I have just about all of 'em. The band is certainly looser than on the Phillips stuff (which I also like), but I've always credited that to the fact it's a live album. It has my favorite version of "Northwest Passage" with a great, great solo from the little-discussed Sal Nistico. This band could *burn*.

gregmo