chewy-chew-chew-bean-benitez Posted January 24, 2007 Report Share Posted January 24, 2007 so we all know miles 1st long playing record was the birth of the cool, rec. in nyc, right? well i dunno nothing about miles so will u share w/ me- was there an argument that miles "invented" cool jazz, or was it just all gerry arrangements, who of course is from LA. i also know miles has a cd, live at the lighthouse, but thats besides the point. where did birth of the cool come from- was miles just copying what he heard while in LA? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John L Posted January 24, 2007 Report Share Posted January 24, 2007 (edited) Don't forget that Gil Evans was a very important part of the mix. As far as the origins of "cool," you can't get much cooler than Pres, and he made his mark more than 10 years before Birth of the Cool. Before that, there were Bix and Tram. P.S. Gerry is not from L.A., and went to L.A. only after the Birth of the Cool project. In fact, as I recall, he used to get upset when people labeled him as West Coast. Edited January 24, 2007 by John L Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chewy-chew-chew-bean-benitez Posted January 24, 2007 Author Report Share Posted January 24, 2007 is that so? hmmm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rosco Posted January 24, 2007 Report Share Posted January 24, 2007 Seems like the time Miles was in L.A. (early 1946) most of the West Coasters were getting to grips with bebop, although it probably had a different wrinkle about it. The Birth of the Cool band was an attempt to get the sound of the Claude Thornhill orchestra (for which Gil Evans had arranged) with as few instruments as possible. Mulligan probably deserves as much credit as anyone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flat5 Posted January 24, 2007 Report Share Posted January 24, 2007 Miles was friends with Dave Brubeck. Brubeck's octet recorded about 1946-1949 It preceded the New Yorkers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Nessa Posted January 25, 2007 Report Share Posted January 25, 2007 What an exciting thought - Miles was on the west coast. Geez! You've got the Pacific Ocean. Live with that and let music be music. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Kart Posted January 25, 2007 Report Share Posted January 25, 2007 Chewy, your chronology is all screwed up. There was no West Coast jazz, in the sense you mean, back in 1946. The influence of the Brubeck Octet on the Birth of the Cool scores was almost certainly zero; I'm aware of no evidence that anyone connected with the Birth of the Cool band was aware of Octer recordings at the time. (Besides, there's plenty of recorded evidence that Gil Evans had his concept going when Brubeck was still in high school.) On the other hand, to be fair, the opinion held by more than a few that the Brubeck Octet stuff was inspired by the Birth of the Cool recordings may be no less a canard. Members of the Brubeck Octet, Bill Smith in particular, have said that it was an independent phenomenon, and listening to the recordings suggests to me that that is so. The predelictions of Brubeck and Dave Van Kriedt, plus the influence of Milhaud, are enough to account for that music, which IMO is fairly tepid and precious. BTW, what's the evidence for a Brubeck-Miles friendship at or before the time of the Birth of the Cool band? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chewy-chew-chew-bean-benitez Posted January 25, 2007 Author Report Share Posted January 25, 2007 larry kart: i wish everyone posted like you do- thank you for a detailed post, in which you site the brubeck octet, which i did not mention in the inital post. and then you used a bill smith interview as evidence, which made your point even clearer- thank you for your throughness...however.... R U TOTALLY COMPLETLY 100% CERTIFIED TOTALLY INSANE??!?!?!??!?!?!?!?!??!?!? WHAT DO U MEAN THERE WAS NO WEST COAST JAZZ IN 1946 ---> here is just one exapmle of and album i would just die to hear-- so much of this w.c.j. is so completely out of print its rediculous--- ! Various Artists - Modern Trumpet Leaders (IAJRC 25) Howard McGhee, Gerald Wilson (tp) Vic Dickenson (tb) Sonny Criss (as) Teddy Edwards (ts) James King (ts, vo) Jimmy Bunn (p) Charles Mingus (b) Roy Porter (d) Hollywood, CA, spring 1946 KFI-23333 Sweet Potato KRI-23337 Hoggin' KFI-23345 Blues a la King FKI-26610 Night Mist i dare you none of you have this on cd, or even lp!! see larry, chewy has a broad interpertation of what i call west coast jazz, if its recorded on the west coast it can qualifty as some type of west coast jazz. i dont care if its ben webster. but i dont like it when w.c.j. guys sell out and go back east. that is the worst. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John L Posted January 25, 2007 Report Share Posted January 25, 2007 Various Artists - Modern Trumpet Leaders (IAJRC 25) Howard McGhee, Gerald Wilson (tp) Vic Dickenson (tb) Sonny Criss (as) Teddy Edwards (ts) James King (ts, vo) Jimmy Bunn (p) Charles Mingus (b) Roy Porter (d) Hollywood, CA, spring 1946 KFI-23333 Sweet Potato KRI-23337 Hoggin' KFI-23345 Blues a la King FKI-26610 Night Mist This session is in print, or at least it was until very recently on chronological classics Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Kart Posted January 25, 2007 Report Share Posted January 25, 2007 Chewy -- I said: "There was no West Coast jazz, IN THE SENSE YOU MEAN, in 1946." The capitalized phrase refers not to ANY jazz made on the West Coast but to the style or styles of jazz that commonly are labeled West Coast jazz, which is the music that you've said you love in post after post here and the music you were alluding to in the post that began this damn thread. And now you're saying "if its recorded on the west coast it can qualifty as some type of west coast jazz." Wonderful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(BB) Posted January 25, 2007 Report Share Posted January 25, 2007 (edited) Mr. Chewy Chew Chew, Other than having been recorded on the Left Coast are there any other factors that limit your definition of "West Coast Jazz"? What possible purpose could having such a definition serve? Sincerely curious, nothing more. Spinning "Hoagy sings Carmichael with The Pacific Jazzmen" as I type. Bill Edited January 25, 2007 by (BB) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clifford_thornton Posted January 25, 2007 Report Share Posted January 25, 2007 Chewy -- I said: "There was no West Coast jazz, IN THE SENSE YOU MEAN, in 1946." The capitalized phrase refers not to ANY jazz made on the West Coast but to the style or styles of jazz that commonly are labeled West Coast jazz, which is the music that you've said you love in post after post here and the music you were alluding to in the post that began this damn thread. And now you're saying "if its recorded on the west coast it can qualifty as some type of west coast jazz." Wonderful. I find it hard to believe that chewy would call the Jim Zitro ensemble or Donald Garrett's work "West Coast Jazz." Maybe his definition is REALLY, REALLY broad, however... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Kart Posted January 25, 2007 Report Share Posted January 25, 2007 Chewy uncovers the hidden link betwen Lew Watters and Shorty Rogers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost of miles Posted January 25, 2007 Report Share Posted January 25, 2007 Life's too short, Larry... Mr. Chewy, if you don't already have it, check out the CENTRAL AVENUE SOUNDS box & book. Pretty rich history to jazz in California that goes way beyond the normal parameters of what most folks think of as "West Coast jazz"... and you really ought to make a beeline for Ted Gioia's book, too, if you haven't already. Re: Brubeck, I'm not sure those octet recording dates have ever been nailed down, even by the musicians themselves...and I agree w/Larry that the Brubeck vs. Davis hype is overblown. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost of miles Posted January 25, 2007 Report Share Posted January 25, 2007 Chewy uncovers the hidden link betwen Lew Watters and Shorty Rogers. ...not to mention the less-hidden link between Shorty Rogers and this fellow: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flat5 Posted January 26, 2007 Report Share Posted January 26, 2007 "BTW, what's the evidence for a Brubeck-Miles friendship at or before the time of the Birth of the Cool band?" Perhaps someone could ask Mr. Brubeck. I'm sorry I brought it up. I don't think there is a link between the two groups of recording...or much of one. Is there a scholarly study of west coast jazz? A good book? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RDK Posted January 26, 2007 Report Share Posted January 26, 2007 So when I heard Braxton play at UCSD, was that considered "West Coast Jazz?" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Nessa Posted January 26, 2007 Report Share Posted January 26, 2007 So when I heard Braxton play at UCSD, was that considered "West Coast Jazz?" Maybe when he played with Warne Marsh and Gary Foster. Chewy's on a tear and no person can stop it. Let it go. We can only hope a job takes him to New Orleans, Kansis City, Chicago, Detroit, Cleveland or New York. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DukeCity Posted January 26, 2007 Report Share Posted January 26, 2007 Is there a scholarly study of west coast jazz? A good book? Check out "West Coast Jazz" by Ted Gioia. Not perfect, but a pretty good read. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flat5 Posted January 27, 2007 Report Share Posted January 27, 2007 Thank you, DukeCity, for your reply. I'll write down the name of the book. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niko Posted January 27, 2007 Report Share Posted January 27, 2007 Thank you, DukeCity, for your reply. I'll write down the name of the book. it's one of the best written jazz books i ever read (the only interesing book in the local library) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jtaylor Posted January 27, 2007 Report Share Posted January 27, 2007 Is there a scholarly study of west coast jazz? A good book? Check out "West Coast Jazz" by Ted Gioia. Not perfect, but a pretty good read. I second that. It's as good as you're going to get on the subject. Discusses many of the figures who certainly were not "West Coast Cool" but still a vital part of the LA scene. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_forumlogo.png.a607ef20a6e0c299ab2aa6443aa1f32e.png)
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.