"Letters from Iwo Jima"

[Randy Twizzle]

Let's not forget the stirring words of FDR on 12/8/1941

Always will we remember the character of the onslaught against us,( though let's not forget that the Japanese soldiers also have families that love them.) No matter how long it may take us to overcome this premeditated invasion, (let's do so in caring and gentle manner) the American people in their righteous might, (righteous but also forgiving, for aren't we all god's creatures), will win through to absolute victory (but in a manner that doesn't offend the Japanese.)

So that's what you think this is all about? Not "offending" the Japanese? This film shows heroism on the Japanese side. No American film (that I know of) has showed such a thing before. And this is just a sop to Politcal Correctness? Is that what you think?

Terribly sorry Saint Alexander, I was just adding my little bit of misplaced whimsy to your monumental discovery that during wartime we tend to dehumanize the enemy. I realize that you must have left the theatre after Eastwood's latest masterpiece feeling the need to proclaim this important truth to us enfeebled yahoos. I understand how important the message is and how we all need to run (not walk) to the theatre to become as noble as you undoubtedly are. BTW "Tora Tora Tora" in 1970 was also partly told from the Japanese perspective, but of course it offered no great universal truths for deep thinkers and didn't really send anyone out of the theatre feeling the need to preach how like really gross war tends to be.

So, because you disagree with my take on the film, that gives you license to be a complete dick?

What seems very interesting to me is that the standard by which greatness in cinema is measured this year is whether or not the film reveals great "Truth" with a capital "T". If the film fails to present some original insight into human nature or our national character, we deem the film a failure (and, of course, anybody who actually likes the film and is interested in what it does have to say is silly, since the film has told us nothing we didn't already know). "Borat" is a good example. I liked "Borat," myself, but a lot of people (on this very board, in fact) responded thus: "Oh, dear. Baron Cohen has revealed that some Americans are ignorant, xenophobic, racist, sexist, anti-semitic boobs. Tell us something we DON'T know! Yawn." Apparently, Baron Cohen's mission in "Borat" was not to be funny, but to come down from the mountain top (a la Moses) with a great truth that would make his film worth viewing. But since his insight is so...so unoriginal...well, how can anybody stomach such a common observation? So it is, too, with "Iwo Jima." War is hell. Where have we heard that one before? Call me up when something INTERESTING happens.

I didn't like the film because it revealed something to me that I'd never seen before. I liked it because it presented a perspective not often seen in American films. And because it was well-acted and well-filmed. Did it teach me that war is hell? No more than "Hotel Rwanda" taught me that genocide is bad. Did I already know that? Yes, but I still thought it was a great film.

And, yes, I did enjoy the fact that Allmighty America was revealed in its socks and underwear, so to speak. I'm of the opinion that America needs to see it's faults and foibles writ large from time to time. That's how we learn. In "Iwo Jima" we see how America is perceived by an enemy at war, and frankly it's not a pretty picture. I don't want to live in the country with the biggest dick in the world, do you?

Like I said you're a noble truth teller. Though I'm not quite what dicks have to do with anything, but I'm not on your level. I guess I should go to move movies.

[Guy Berger]

And, yes, I did enjoy the fact that Allmighty America was revealed in its socks and underwear, so to speak. I'm of the opinion that America needs to see it's faults and foibles writ large from time to time. That's how we learn. In "Iwo Jima" we see how America is perceived by an enemy at war, and frankly it's not a pretty picture. I don't want to live in the country with the biggest dick in the world, do you?

I'd be really curious to read your review of a movie that took the Nazi perspective.

Guy

[Alexander]

Let's not forget the stirring words of FDR on 12/8/1941

Always will we remember the character of the onslaught against us,( though let's not forget that the Japanese soldiers also have families that love them.) No matter how long it may take us to overcome this premeditated invasion, (let's do so in caring and gentle manner) the American people in their righteous might, (righteous but also forgiving, for aren't we all god's creatures), will win through to absolute victory (but in a manner that doesn't offend the Japanese.)

So that's what you think this is all about? Not "offending" the Japanese? This film shows heroism on the Japanese side. No American film (that I know of) has showed such a thing before. And this is just a sop to Politcal Correctness? Is that what you think?

Terribly sorry Saint Alexander, I was just adding my little bit of misplaced whimsy to your monumental discovery that during wartime we tend to dehumanize the enemy. I realize that you must have left the theatre after Eastwood's latest masterpiece feeling the need to proclaim this important truth to us enfeebled yahoos. I understand how important the message is and how we all need to run (not walk) to the theatre to become as noble as you undoubtedly are. BTW "Tora Tora Tora" in 1970 was also partly told from the Japanese perspective, but of course it offered no great universal truths for deep thinkers and didn't really send anyone out of the theatre feeling the need to preach how like really gross war tends to be.

So, because you disagree with my take on the film, that gives you license to be a complete dick?

What seems very interesting to me is that the standard by which greatness in cinema is measured this year is whether or not the film reveals great "Truth" with a capital "T". If the film fails to present some original insight into human nature or our national character, we deem the film a failure (and, of course, anybody who actually likes the film and is interested in what it does have to say is silly, since the film has told us nothing we didn't already know). "Borat" is a good example. I liked "Borat," myself, but a lot of people (on this very board, in fact) responded thus: "Oh, dear. Baron Cohen has revealed that some Americans are ignorant, xenophobic, racist, sexist, anti-semitic boobs. Tell us something we DON'T know! Yawn." Apparently, Baron Cohen's mission in "Borat" was not to be funny, but to come down from the mountain top (a la Moses) with a great truth that would make his film worth viewing. But since his insight is so...so unoriginal...well, how can anybody stomach such a common observation? So it is, too, with "Iwo Jima." War is hell. Where have we heard that one before? Call me up when something INTERESTING happens.

I didn't like the film because it revealed something to me that I'd never seen before. I liked it because it presented a perspective not often seen in American films. And because it was well-acted and well-filmed. Did it teach me that war is hell? No more than "Hotel Rwanda" taught me that genocide is bad. Did I already know that? Yes, but I still thought it was a great film.

And, yes, I did enjoy the fact that Allmighty America was revealed in its socks and underwear, so to speak. I'm of the opinion that America needs to see it's faults and foibles writ large from time to time. That's how we learn. In "Iwo Jima" we see how America is perceived by an enemy at war, and frankly it's not a pretty picture. I don't want to live in the country with the biggest dick in the world, do you?

Like I said you're a noble truth teller. Though I'm not quite what dicks have to do with anything, but I'm not on your level. I guess I should go to move movies.

What's a "move movie?" Must be a DICK thing...

[Alexander]

And, yes, I did enjoy the fact that Allmighty America was revealed in its socks and underwear, so to speak. I'm of the opinion that America needs to see it's faults and foibles writ large from time to time. That's how we learn. In "Iwo Jima" we see how America is perceived by an enemy at war, and frankly it's not a pretty picture. I don't want to live in the country with the biggest dick in the world, do you?

I'd be really curious to read your review of a movie that took the Nazi perspective.

Guy

I've seen a few ("Das Boot" for one) and I think that they're very interesting. Remember, a German perspective is not a "Nazi perspective" necessarily. Many German soldiers were regular guys who were either pressed in to service, or who genuinely wanted to serve their country (nothing wrong with that, right?). The Nazis were something else entirely, but I'd still love to see a film that takes their perspective too.

[Guy Berger]

And, yes, I did enjoy the fact that Allmighty America was revealed in its socks and underwear, so to speak. I'm of the opinion that America needs to see it's faults and foibles writ large from time to time. That's how we learn. In "Iwo Jima" we see how America is perceived by an enemy at war, and frankly it's not a pretty picture. I don't want to live in the country with the biggest dick in the world, do you?

I'd be really curious to read your review of a movie that took the Nazi perspective.

Guy

I've seen a few ("Das Boot" for one) and I think that they're very interesting. Remember, a German perspective is not a "Nazi perspective" necessarily. Many German soldiers were regular guys who were either pressed in to service, or who genuinely wanted to serve their country (nothing wrong with that, right?). The Nazis were something else entirely, but I'd still love to see a film that takes their perspective too.

I'm sure you would get a creepy enjoyment from them, too.

Guy

[Randy Twizzle]

Let's not forget the stirring words of FDR on 12/8/1941

Always will we remember the character of the onslaught against us,( though let's not forget that the Japanese soldiers also have families that love them.) No matter how long it may take us to overcome this premeditated invasion, (let's do so in caring and gentle manner) the American people in their righteous might, (righteous but also forgiving, for aren't we all god's creatures), will win through to absolute victory (but in a manner that doesn't offend the Japanese.)

So that's what you think this is all about? Not "offending" the Japanese? This film shows heroism on the Japanese side. No American film (that I know of) has showed such a thing before. And this is just a sop to Politcal Correctness? Is that what you think?

Terribly sorry Saint Alexander, I was just adding my little bit of misplaced whimsy to your monumental discovery that during wartime we tend to dehumanize the enemy. I realize that you must have left the theatre after Eastwood's latest masterpiece feeling the need to proclaim this important truth to us enfeebled yahoos. I understand how important the message is and how we all need to run (not walk) to the theatre to become as noble as you undoubtedly are. BTW "Tora Tora Tora" in 1970 was also partly told from the Japanese perspective, but of course it offered no great universal truths for deep thinkers and didn't really send anyone out of the theatre feeling the need to preach how like really gross war tends to be.

So, because you disagree with my take on the film, that gives you license to be a complete dick?

What seems very interesting to me is that the standard by which greatness in cinema is measured this year is whether or not the film reveals great "Truth" with a capital "T". If the film fails to present some original insight into human nature or our national character, we deem the film a failure (and, of course, anybody who actually likes the film and is interested in what it does have to say is silly, since the film has told us nothing we didn't already know). "Borat" is a good example. I liked "Borat," myself, but a lot of people (on this very board, in fact) responded thus: "Oh, dear. Baron Cohen has revealed that some Americans are ignorant, xenophobic, racist, sexist, anti-semitic boobs. Tell us something we DON'T know! Yawn." Apparently, Baron Cohen's mission in "Borat" was not to be funny, but to come down from the mountain top (a la Moses) with a great truth that would make his film worth viewing. But since his insight is so...so unoriginal...well, how can anybody stomach such a common observation? So it is, too, with "Iwo Jima." War is hell. Where have we heard that one before? Call me up when something INTERESTING happens.

I didn't like the film because it revealed something to me that I'd never seen before. I liked it because it presented a perspective not often seen in American films. And because it was well-acted and well-filmed. Did it teach me that war is hell? No more than "Hotel Rwanda" taught me that genocide is bad. Did I already know that? Yes, but I still thought it was a great film.

And, yes, I did enjoy the fact that Allmighty America was revealed in its socks and underwear, so to speak. I'm of the opinion that America needs to see it's faults and foibles writ large from time to time. That's how we learn. In "Iwo Jima" we see how America is perceived by an enemy at war, and frankly it's not a pretty picture. I don't want to live in the country with the biggest dick in the world, do you?

Like I said you're a noble truth teller. Though I'm not quite what dicks have to do with anything, but I'm not on your level. I guess I should go to move movies.

What's a "move movie?" Must be a DICK thing...

Sorry Reverend it should have read "more" movies. And if you're calling me a DICK, it really doesn't bother me. Anything that gets your mind off of deep thoughts is really fine with me.

[Eric]

Wow - I have been out of the political forum for several years - I did know what I was missing

[Alexander]

I'm sure you would get a creepy enjoyment from them, too.

Guy

Why creepy? Are you saying that there are some things that fiction cannot handle? Or should not? Nabokov allowed us to see the world from the point of view of a pedophile. Why couldn't somebody else do the same with a Nazi? Shouldn't we WANT to understand the perspective of the socially maladjusted?

I will say, right here and now, that I would read a book or watch a movie from the point of view of ANY character, so long as the book is well written or the film is well made. I would gladly read a book from the point of view of a Holocaust denier. No book is bad if it is well written.

Edited January 23, 2007 by Alexander

[Guy Berger]

I'm sure you would get a creepy enjoyment from them, too.

Guy

Why creepy? Are you saying that there are some things that fiction cannot handle? Or should not? Nabokov allowed us to see the world from the point of view of a pedophile. Why couldn't somebody else do the same with a Nazi? Shouldn't we WANT to understand the perspective of the socially maladjusted?

I will say, right here and now, that I would read a book or watch a movie from the point of view of ANY character, so long as the book is well written or the film is well made. I would gladly read a book from the point of view of a Holocaust denier. No book is bad if it is well written.

Stop with these red herrings. Your review of the movie went beyond simply "viewing from a different perspective" or aesthetic appreciation. You were ASHAMED of the American flag going up at Iwo Jima, you derived ENJOYMENT from seeing the Japanese side painted positively and the American side negatively.

I'm done here. People can make up their own minds whether that's creepy or not.

Guy

[Alexander]

I'm sure you would get a creepy enjoyment from them, too.

Guy

Why creepy? Are you saying that there are some things that fiction cannot handle? Or should not? Nabokov allowed us to see the world from the point of view of a pedophile. Why couldn't somebody else do the same with a Nazi? Shouldn't we WANT to understand the perspective of the socially maladjusted?

I will say, right here and now, that I would read a book or watch a movie from the point of view of ANY character, so long as the book is well written or the film is well made. I would gladly read a book from the point of view of a Holocaust denier. No book is bad if it is well written.

Stop with these red herrings. Your review of the movie went beyond simply "viewing from a different perspective" or aesthetic appreciation. You were ASHAMED of the American flag going up at Iwo Jima, you derived ENJOYMENT from seeing the Japanese side painted positively and the American side negatively.

I'm done here. People can make up their own minds whether that's creepy or not.

Guy

I said that I was ashamed *given the circumstances.* Would you salute the flag with a tear in your eye right after you'd just watched (and sympathized) with Japanese characters getting their asses stomped for two hours and change? I also watched "Flags" and it was a very different experience. That's the point of the film. It's SUPPOSED to make you feel a little guilty. Jeez.

As for my ENJOYMENT, I said that I enjoyed seeing the fresh perspective. It was DIFFERENT watching a war movie where Americans are the bad guys. As for my take on the film, ask someone else who saw it: It is not my INTERPRETATION that the Japanese treat an American prisoner with respect and kindness and that the Americans brutally slaughter two Japanese prisoners. That's in the movie. You have a problem with that, take it up with Clint Eastwood.

[BruceH]

I've been meaning to see this movie. Almost saw it last weekend but got too busy.

[Jazzmoose]

I don't want to live in the country with the biggest dick in the world, do you?

Alas, I have no choice...

[Scott Dolan]

I don't want to live in the country with the biggest dick in the world, do you?

My wife has obviously been talking again.............

[skeith]

I wonder how a Chinese director would have made this film?

Are there any really good films about the Japanese occupation? I'd love to see one!

Look, I'm not saying "Japanese: Good; Americans: Baaaaad." I'm saying that the film offers a very unique perspective, and that it calls for a little HUMILITY in our assessment of America's victory in this battle. I'm not saying we were wrong to fight and try to win, just that THIS particular victory should stir some sober reflection. We seem to have this attitude that war is like a football game. It's not. There are human beings on both sides who lost their lives. Frankly, I don't understand how anybody can live through that and keep their sanity.

Actually I have seen one film about the Japanese occupation that is from the Chinese perspective and it is called "Red Sorghum" by the acclaimed Chinese director Zhang Yimou. I don't think it is on DVD and that is a shame.

Japanese are portrayed as bloodthirsty killers who delight in torturing the civilian population.

[Alexander]

I wonder how a Chinese director would have made this film?

Are there any really good films about the Japanese occupation? I'd love to see one!

Look, I'm not saying "Japanese: Good; Americans: Baaaaad." I'm saying that the film offers a very unique perspective, and that it calls for a little HUMILITY in our assessment of America's victory in this battle. I'm not saying we were wrong to fight and try to win, just that THIS particular victory should stir some sober reflection. We seem to have this attitude that war is like a football game. It's not. There are human beings on both sides who lost their lives. Frankly, I don't understand how anybody can live through that and keep their sanity.

Actually I have seen one film about the Japanese occupation that is from the Chinese perspective and it is called "Red Sorghum" by the acclaimed Chinese director Zhang Yimou. I don't think it is on DVD and that is a shame.

Japanese are portrayed as bloodthirsty killers who delight in torturing the civilian population.

Sounds interesting! Perhaps I can find it on VHS. Thanks for the heads up!

[sal]

Saw this film this evening. It was very sad, as expected, but an excellent film. Highly recommended!

[skeith]

Well, I finally saw this film and as I suspected, I sometimes wonder whether I saw the same film as Alexander.

I found the film very moving and of course, given the point of view of the film, the viewer has some empathy for the japanese soldiers. The overwhelming sense is the tragedy of war for all of those involved.

However, I have a couple of rebuttals to Alexander's view that this was a shameful US operation.

1) First as to Alex's shame over the US's overwhelming superiority in numbers for this battle, the film made it clear that the massive amounts of men and machinery brought to Iwo Jima were not intended just for that battle, but for many of other battles yet to come. It was a foothold and a base to launch to war against the Japanese mainland.

2) Yes, there was a ugly incident where american soldiers murder two prisoners- that was indeed shameful. But what Alex forgot to mention was there was also a scene where a japanese soldier was surrounded and wildly swinging a shovel at US troops (and that could potentially kill or severely wound you), the americans could have shot that soldier but did not.

Alex also neglects to inform us that there is a scene where an American soldier who gets into one of the japanese tunnels is savagely bayoneted by Japanese troops and that American soldier could have quite easily been made into a prisoner.

There is also a scene in the film where before the American soldiers land, the japanese soldiers are instructed to particularly aim to kill American medics. Seems to me that there is nothing moral about that and is it possibly against the rules of war.

[mikeweil]

Frankly, I don't understand how anybody can live through that and keep their sanity.

Me neither. Who ever counted those who lost theirs? They wouldn't fit into the glorious pcture of war heroes, but they are more numerous than we might imagine.

Edited March 8, 2007 by mikeweil