Swing bands & blues ballads:

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

In recent months, I've bought a few albums and boxes by 1930s/40s big bands:

Cab Calloway

Chick Webb

Jimmie Lunceford

Count Basie

Lionel Hampton

I already had a box of Duke Ellington's Victor material from the early '40s. And some albums by Cootie Willams, Erskine Hawkins and Buddy Johnson. But that's about it for swing bands of that era.

While I'm enjoying all this new stuff a lot, I've felt that something was missing and, while I was doing the washing up this evening, realised it was blues ballads. There are a few from the '40s by Duke - "Rocks in my bed" and "I got it bad" - but before Buddy Johnson, there don't seem to be any.

So it seems to me that Buddy Johnson was the pioneer of this form.

But have I accidentally got hold of an unrepresentative sample? If I were actively looking for blues ballads among swing bands, which other bands should I be looking at?

MG

[jazzbo]

Woody Herman.

You don't think thirties Basie with Rushing qualifies?

[brownie]

You might check the Savoy Sultans.

Most of their output was reissued on Classics Al Cooper & the Savoy Sultans 1938-1941.

[Larry Kart]

Erskine Hawkins, perhaps? There's "After Hours," after all.

[JSngry]

Wouldn't "blues ballad" most properly refer to a song that uses the I-IV progression as a basis, but also steps outside/away from both it and the 12-bar form as well?

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

Wouldn't "blues ballad" most properly refer to a song that uses the I-IV progression as a basis, but also steps outside/away from both it and the 12-bar form as well?

Yes, 12 bar blues with a bridge, as in so many Buddy Johnson (and Percy Mayfield) songs.

MG

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

Erskine Hawkins, perhaps? There's "After Hours," after all.

Yes, Erskine Hawkins is one of the bands I've had a couple of albums of for a long time. "After hours", of course, is a straight 12 bar blues. And I don't think that band started recording blues ballads until a while after Buddy Johnson.

MG

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

Woody Herman.

You don't think thirties Basie with Rushing qualifies?

Would Herman have been doing blues ballads before 1940 ("Please Mr Johnson" & "You won't let me go")? I think he billed himself as "The band that plays the blues". Basie/Rushing I've not heard much of, but what it seems to be is blues, again.

MG

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

You might check the Savoy Sultans.

Most of their output was reissued on Classics Al Cooper & the Savoy Sultans 1938-1941.

Ah - that looks very promising - though they weren't a big band, they seem to have been in the vein I'm looking for. I'll put them on my list for early purchase.

Thanks Brownie.

MG

[JSngry]

Wouldn't "blues ballad" most properly refer to a song that uses the I-IV progression as a basis, but also steps outside/away from both it and the 12-bar form as well?

Yes, 12 bar blues with a bridge, as in so many Buddy Johnson (and Percy Mayfield) songs.

MG

Not necessarily 12 bars with a bridge, eh (you can do a blues progression in 8 bars if you do the I-IV in the first 4 and then do some kind of turnaround sequence in the next 4. The possibilities for variation are pretty open)? But rather tunes that suggest the blues form w/o necessarily adhering to it. Charles Brown did a buttload full of 'em, but, of course, that was after Buddy Johnson.

Here's a simple (and oft-used) example:

C7/C7/F7/Bb7 (or keep it on F7 if you wanna be all rudimental about it)/C7 A7/Dm7 G7/Em7 A7/Dm7 G7

That's it - 8 bars played thorough twice, then you put in a bridge, and back to the A-section. Standard 32 bar song form, but the A-section more than hints at a blues due to the first 4.5 bars. It's the pivot chord - the A7 (VI 7 for all you geeks ) in the second half of the 4th bar that steers it into standard song form rather than a blues form. If it was going to be a 12, you'd most likely keep that I chord (C7) for the whole bar.

More importantly, by keeping the I chord in place for only 2 bars instead of the usual 4, you're automatically compressing the form by half. So unless you're really having fun, you're setting up the expectation for either a 6 bar blues (unlikely...) or an 8 bar unit, which then traditionally leads to either an AABA song form or an ABAC (or ABAB-altered).

This prototype is, I think more common that the 12 bars w/a bridge. They A-Sections often feel like 12, but they're usually 8. Of course, there are exceptions.

Count the bars of some blues ballads sometimes and see what you think.

Edited January 21, 2007 by JSngry

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

Wouldn't "blues ballad" most properly refer to a song that uses the I-IV progression as a basis, but also steps outside/away from both it and the 12-bar form as well?

Yes, 12 bar blues with a bridge, as in so many Buddy Johnson (and Percy Mayfield) songs.

MG

Not necessarily 12 bars with a bridge, eh (you can do a blues progression in 8 bars if you do the I-IV in the first 4 and then do some kind of turnaround sequence in the next 4. The possibilities for variation are pretty open)? But rather tunes that suggest the blues form w/o necessarily adhering to it. Charles Brown did a buttload full of 'em, but, of course, that was after Buddy Johnson.

Here's a simple (and oft-used) example:

C7/C7/F7/Bb7 (or keep it on F7 if you wanna be all rudimental about it)/C7 A7/Dm7 G7/Em7 A7/Dm7 G7

That's it - 8 bars played thorough twice, then you put in a bridge, and back to the A-section. Standard 32 bar song form, but the A-section more than hints at a blues due to the first 4.5 bars. It's the pivot chord - the A7 (VI 7 for all you geeks ) in the second half of the 4th bar that steers it into standard song form rather than a blues form. If it was going to be a 12, you'd most likely keep that I chord (C7) for the whole bar.

More importantly, by keeping the I chord in place for only 2 bars instead of the usual 4, you're automatically compressing the form by half. So unless you're really having fun, you're setting up the expectation for either a 6 bar blues (unlikely...) or an 8 bar unit, which then traditionally leads to either an AABA song form or an ABAC (or ABAB-altered).

This prototype is, I think more common that the 12 bars w/a bridge. They A-Sections often feel like 12, but they're usually 8. Of course, there are exceptions.

Count the bars of some blues ballads sometimes and see what you think.

Ah Jim (lad!) You've bleedin' lost me.

"Merry Christmas baby", which everybody knows, is 12,12,8,12. If you suggest a title that's 8,8,12?,8, I'll know what you're talking about. I can almost think of one, then my mind shies away - it's because I've got Jimmy Smith playing "Stormy Monday" on at the moment.

MG

[JSngry]

"Merry Christmas baby", which everybody knows, is 12,12,8,12.

It is? There must be some version of it I've not yet heard or played... Every version I've come across is a 12-bar blues from start to finish, save for the intro.

Sure you're not thinking about "Please Come Home For Christmas"? That one's got an 8-bar bridge, but the A-sections are also 8 bars.

Edited January 21, 2007 by JSngry

[Larry Kart]

I know that "After Hours" isn't a blues-ballad in form, but its hook is very blues-ballad in feel, no? -- noodling boogie figures devolving into a song-like sense of release.

[marcello]

Not exactly what you're talkin' about here, but if you don't have this....git it!

[John L]

Taking a broader definition of blues ballads, there were certainly a lot of them outside of big bands in the 1930s. Leroy Carr and Lonnie Johnson were probably the most important figures in developing black popular music in this direction.

As far as big bands go, the real pioneers may have been territory bands that didn't record much, if at all. The George E. Lee Orchestra with Julia Lee might be considered a prototype for Buddy and Ella Johnson. Troy Floyd and his Shadowland Orchestra from Texas were only able to make a few recordings, but their featured singer, Kellough Jefferson, gives the impression of being a great blues balladeer. Then there is the Jay McShann orchestra with Walter Brown, which emerged around the same time as Buddy and Ella Johnson. Count Basie with James Rushing, Helen Humes, or Billie Holiday was menioned above.

Edited January 22, 2007 by John L

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

"Merry Christmas baby", which everybody knows, is 12,12,8,12.

It is? There must be some version of it I've not yet heard or played... Every version I've come across is a 12-bar blues from start to finish, save for the intro.

Sure you're not thinking about "Please Come Home For Christmas"? That one's got an 8-bar bridge, but the A-sections are also 8 bars.

"Saint Nick came down the chimney, 'bout half past 3

Left all these pretty presents, that you see before me".

Ain't that the bridge?

And for an eight bar joint, I thought of "I'm just a lucky so-and-so", this morning. Haven't listened to check.

MG

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

Not exactly what you're talkin' about here, but if you don't have this....git it!

I do have it, thanks. Recommended to ALL!

MG

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

Taking a broader definition of blues ballads, there were certainly a lot of them outside of big bands in the 1930s. Leroy Carr and Lonnie Johnson were probably the most important figures in developing black popular music in this direction.

As far as big bands go, the real pioneers may have been territory bands that didn't record much, if at all. The George E. Lee Orchestra with Julia Lee might be considered a prototype for Buddy and Ella Johnson. Troy Floyd and his Shadowland Orchestra from Texas were only able to make a few recordings, but their featured singer, Kellough Jefferson, gives the impression of being a great blues balladeer. Then there is the Jay McShann orchestra with Walter Brown, which emerged around the same time as Buddy and Ella Johnson. Count Basie with James Rushing, Helen Humes, or Billie Holiday was menioned above.

Ah yes. Carr and Johnson are both on my list for exploration. I know Julia Lee's post-war work and I imagine you may be right there. Never heard Troy Floyd, though I've heard the name. Is such material as he recorded available? Good thoughts John.

MG

[jazzbo]

Troy only ever recordered four sides, two 78s!

http://www.redhotjazz.com/shadowland.html

http://www.redhotjazz.com/plaza.html

Edited January 22, 2007 by jazzbo

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

Troy only ever recordered four sides, two 78s!

http://www.redhotjazz.com/shadowland.html

http://www.redhotjazz.com/plaza.html

Hershel Evans on tenor eh?

Thanks Lon.

MG

[JSngry]

"Merry Christmas baby", which everybody knows, is 12,12,8,12.

It is? There must be some version of it I've not yet heard or played... Every version I've come across is a 12-bar blues from start to finish, save for the intro.

Sure you're not thinking about "Please Come Home For Christmas"? That one's got an 8-bar bridge, but the A-sections are also 8 bars.

"Saint Nick came down the chimney, 'bout half past 3

Left all these pretty presents, that you see before me".

Ain't that the bridge?

Nope, that's just the first four of a 12, sung over a break.

And for an eight bar joint, I thought of "I'm just a lucky so-and-so", this morning. Haven't listened to check.

You, sir would be correct!

[John L]

Troy only ever recordered four sides, two 78s!

http://www.redhotjazz.com/shadowland.html

http://www.redhotjazz.com/plaza.html

There are three more tracks as well: Wabash Blues, Tampa Shout, and Going Away Blues. These and the two 78s that Lon mentioned can be found on the excellent release on Timeless: "Jazz in Texas"

Edited January 22, 2007 by John L

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

Troy only ever recordered four sides, two 78s!

http://www.redhotjazz.com/shadowland.html

http://www.redhotjazz.com/plaza.html

There are three more tracks as well: Wabash Blues, Tampa Shout, and Going Away Blues. These and the two 78s that Lon mentioned can be found on the excellent release on Timeless: "Jazz in Texas"

Thanks John. Is that the Dutch label, Timeless?

MG

[jazzbo]

Yeah. It's a good one.