Fresh Sound & Lone Hill Reissues Discussion

[jazzbo]

Those are good sessions. I liked them in the past, but I liked them more when I revistied them in the past. I think one still needs to be released on cd (separately, outside of Lonehill).

Donald Byrd was often pretty "on" in the fifties.

[Guy Berger]

Records had to have been relatively cheap to "produce" at that time, and then priced very modestly. ally.

$3.98 was the norm, IIRC. Maybe $4.98 for stereo. Or maybe at one (earlier) point, a dollar less both ways.

I bought my first LP in 1968, and that's what prices were then.

How many pints of beer could you buy then for the price of an LP?

And how many can you buy now for the price of a (new) CD?

MG

Ha ha - MG, I bet you got an A+ in economics!

Is there any reason why I *shouldn't* pick up the 1957 Lateef box? I picked up the one Savoy 2CD set as well as "Other Sounds", but it seems like picking up any more of the OJCs would be a mistake since the Fresh Sounds box offers a more complete package.

Guy

[king ubu]

I recently got it, even though I have all the OJCs and the Savoy 2CD set and the Verve Elite Edition CD... call me crazy, but the early Savoy sessions are fabulous and I wanted to have them for real.

This set made me doubt that OK ever intended to release and "early" Savoy set, since it would have been one of those 2CD sets with 90 minutes of music or so... (and OK was outspoken about that in a few of those ca. 2000 Savoy digipack reissues, where he said that since 1,5 CD sets didn't exist, he'd trimmed the selection down to 80 minutes... he did so with the Fats Navarro disc, for instance, or was it the Dexter Gordon?). Also, there was an incomplete session on the "Last Savoy" release, with just three tracks being on it. No point in doing that and making the "First Savoy" set even shorter! Just a lot of hot air there, from the git-go, I guess!

The Fresh Sound is a nice package, with two regular jewel-case-sized 2CD sets and a booklet that reprints all the original liners, but alas adds nothing new (I guess paying a writer would have been over the top of their, ahem "budget"...). The two OJCs that are included there (plus one track from a third, I think?) together amount to only about 70 minutes of music... they'd have made a good Fantasy twofer, too, but hey, I'm not complaining! Main thing is: all of the music is great, you get Lateef exploring his first "eastern" sounds there, though alas there's no oboe yet... but his tenor playing is absolutely gorgeous! And the Verve album, in case you don't have it, is a lost jewel, in my opinion!

[John L]

Here is an interesting one that I recently stumbled on:

Harold Land and Elmo Hope is fine form and good sound from 1958 with Scott LaFaro! Nuff said. I had never heard, or heard of it, before.

Edited December 25, 2009 by John L

[mikeweil]

This set made me doubt that OK ever intended to release and "early" Savoy set, since it would have been one of those 2CD sets with 90 minutes of music or so... (and OK was outspoken about that in a few of those ca. 2000 Savoy digipack reissues, where he said that since 1,5 CD sets didn't exist, he'd trimmed the selection down to 80 minutes...

Well, Keepnews always faced the problem that Lateef's recordings were split between labels that he couldn't possibly talk into cooperation - Prestige, Savoy, Verve ... I still have have his twofer LPs which I bought first, and thought and still think the Prestige twofers are a mess - the Savoy twofers Bob Porter produced are nice.

Sometimes Fantasy did a great job completing sessions, but in many cases they simply missed opportunities. Lateef is a case in point, and just for the cause of keeping LP issues intact, which often enough were a mess, too, I think.

The best solution would be single layer stereo SACDs - 4 1/2 hours on one disc! And better sound!

Edited December 25, 2009 by mikeweil

[king ubu]

Mike, I was talking of the 2CD set here:

I think in the notes there, Keepnews referred to another future release with the "first" Savoy sessions, which never happened. There was no plan to pull music from different labels together on OK's side, I think. He was only dealing with the Savoy recordings, and he feghed that up...

[jazzbo]

The best solution would be single layer stereo SACDs - 4 1/2 hours on one disc! And better sound!

Ha, you really are a dreamer!

I'd love to see the entire collection on Savoy in one place. . . .A Mosaic. It's possible I guess, but I'm dreaming too.

[JSngry]

Here is an interesting one that I recently stumbled on:

Harold Land and Elmo Hope is fine form and good sound from 1958 with Scott LaFaro! Nuff said. I had never heard, or heard of it, before.

Circulated among collectors - for free - over the last few years...great music.

[Larry Kart]

Here is an interesting one that I recently stumbled on:

Harold Land and Elmo Hope is fine form and good sound from 1958 with Scott LaFaro! Nuff said. I had never heard, or heard of it, before.

Circulated among collectors - for free - over the last few years...great music.

Any comment on this Amazon comment?:

"This CD, like several others that have appeared recently are wonderful historical documents of rare performances by some of my all-time favorite jazz artists. However,like the recent ones featuring Clifford Brown at the Cotton Club and the one-of-a-kind home recording of Clifford Brown with Eric Dolphy, it is marred by that fact that the music plays back at least 1/2 step above proper pitch and sometimes more...." (my emphasis)

[JSngry]

Probably/possibly true, can't remember for sure, but definitely not enough to go outside my "use your imagination" zone that I bring by default to any recording of this type.

And definitely/easily correctable w/the correct software by any home listener bothered enough by such things.

[Larry Kart]

Probably/possibly true, can't remember for sure, but definitely not enough to go outside my "use your imagination" zone that I bring by default to any recording of this type.

And definitely/easily correctable w/the correct software by any home listener bothered enough by such things.

Thanks. I'll give it a try.

[JSngry]

Well geez, don't buy it...not from those guys...

[John L]

Well geez, don't buy it...not from those guys...

Those guys sometimes do a service for those of us who don't have insider tracks to collectors circles.

On the sound quality again: As I wrote, I think that the sound quality is quite good for this concert. Maybe the half-step pitch problem could bother people with perfect pitch (I wouldn't know), but it is not as if the pitch wobbles around a lot during the music, as is often the case with recordings made on cheap tape recorders. It is true that Hope and LaFaro are lower in the balance than would be optimal. But, hey, want to you want from a recording like this?

Edited December 26, 2009 by John L

[JSngry]

Well geez, don't buy it...not from those guys...

Those guys sometimes do a service for those of us who don't have insider tracks to collectors circles.

Yeah, well, I suppose you're right, especially here on the Organissimo board... :g :g

[Victor Christensen]

I confess, I am a criminal, I have bought quite a few from The Andorra people, mostly stuff that I could not get nowhere else and cheaper than the japanese editions, and the worst part of it is that I am not even shamefull.

Vic

[BillF]

Are not the Andorrans keeping the music we love alive? In the nineties it was Fantasy/OJC that kept my shelves stocked; in the noughties it's been Senor Pujol.

[king ubu]

SORRY, the combining posts written within (5? - way too many for sure!) minutes function makes this un-readable!

-----------------------

PART 1

-----------------------

Ha, that George Russell disc is a sorry thing... they stole it from a dime-compilation I put up a while back. One-by-one, they just added a cover.

The funny thing is, I got an upgrade, both with corrected information, additional titles of the final part of the disc, and way better sound... so here's a big stinky finger à la John R. Cash to them!

Here's the info I now have for the unidentified track(s):

George Russell

prob. Zurich (Switzerland), Volkshaus - April 30, 1965

or

Gent (Belgium) - May 1965

Bertil Lofgren - trumpet

Eje Thelin - trombone

Bernt Rosengren - tenor sax, flute

George Russell - piano

Roman Dylag - bass

Al Heath - drums

6. You Are My Sunshine (trad., arr. George Russell) 10:58

7. Lydiot (George Russell) 10:01

8. 'Round Midnight (Monk-Hanighen-Williams) 6:46

TT: 27:46

Sound: A- (some print-through)

Source/Lineage: radio broadcast > CDR in trade > EAC (secure, log) > FLAC (8,asb,verify)

Notes:

A guy (I know who) who knew Eje Thelin and did some lengthy interviews with him) says:

Russell toured Europe with this sextet in April and May 1965. They were recorded for three radio stations:

April 1965: Stockholm (Sweden), Gyllen Cirkeln

April 1965: Copenhagen (Denmark), Montmartre Jazzhus

April 30, 1965: Zurich (Switzerland), Volkshaus

May 1965 Gent (Belgium)

Likely, #6-8 originate from one of these recordings, most likely from the Zurich or Gent concerts, as the sound suggests a large venue (unlike Montmartre and Gyllen Cirkeln).

Further, here's a quote in Jazz Podium 5/1965, p. 115:

George Russell hat in Stockholm ein neues Sextett gebildet, in dem Bertil Lövgren tp, Eje Thelin tb, Bernt Rosengren ts, Romas Dylag b und Al Heath dr spielen. Er stellte sich mit dieser Gruppe erstmals im Stockholmer Gyllene Cirkeln vor und will dann damit auf Reisen gehen. Bisher sind Gastspiele im Kopenhagener Montmartre, in Brüssel und Zürich vorgesehen.

And Jazz Podium 6/1965, p. 155, contains a review of the Zurich concert, written by Joe Viera.

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PART 2

-----------------------

As for Harold Land, same story, but I wasn't involved.

The version that's in circulation has the following info, and even without the introductions, you'd need to shorten some to make it fit onto a regular 80min CD - so maybe they just sped it up some?

------------------------

Harold Land

The Cellar, Vancouver (CA)

1958

Harold Land - tenor saxophone

Elmo Hope - piano

Scott LaFaro - bass

Lennie McBrowne - drums

CD1/First Set/40:54

1. Introduction (0:59)

2. Cherokee (18:38)

3. Just Friends (21:15) [drop-out 2:35.5]

CD2/Second Set/41:51

4. Introduction (0:15)

5. Big Foot (Charlie Parker) (29:36)

6. Come Rain or Come Shine (11:59)

TT: 82:46

Edited December 27, 2009 by king ubu

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

Any comment on this Amazon comment?:

"This CD, like several others that have appeared recently are wonderful historical documents of rare performances by some of my all-time favorite jazz artists. However,like the recent ones featuring Clifford Brown at the Cotton Club and the one-of-a-kind home recording of Clifford Brown with Eric Dolphy, it is marred by that fact that the music plays back at least 1/2 step above proper pitch and sometimes more...." (my emphasis)

Crapi grammer

MG

[John L]

As for Harold Land, same story, but I wasn't involved.

The version that's in circulation has the following info, and even without the introductions, you'd need to shorten some to make it fit onto a regular 80min CD - so maybe they just sped it up some?

------------------------

Harold Land

The Cellar, Vancouver (CA)

1958

Harold Land - tenor saxophone

Elmo Hope - piano

Scott LaFaro - bass

Lennie McBrowne - drums

CD1/First Set/40:54

1. Introduction (0:59)

2. Cherokee (18:38)

3. Just Friends (21:15) [drop-out 2:35.5]

CD2/Second Set/41:51

4. Introduction (0:15)

5. Big Foot (Charlie Parker) (29:36)

6. Come Rain or Come Shine (11:59)

TT: 82:46

On the CD, Just Friends and Big Foot are both two minutes shorter. The other track times are within seconds of those. There is no drop-out on Just Friends on the CD. So that must explain the first.

[king ubu]

That time gives where the dropout occurs, not how long it is (I assume it's just a few seconds). I'll have to dig up the discs, maybe they deleted some chatter or something.

[jazzbo]

You know these tapes circulate among collectors for YEARS. They don't HAVE to have been from uploads, which are quite late to the distribution systems.

Too bad that such great music comes out and benefits the artists not at all. Neither downloads, nor boot cds or the tapes going around. Just the way of the world I guess.

You know these tapes circulate among collectors for YEARS. They don't HAVE to have been from uploads, which are quite late to the distribution systems.

Too bad that such great music comes out and benefits the artists not at all. Neither downloads, nor boot cds or the tapes going around. Just the way of the world I guess.

[king ubu]

Yes, of course you're right, but in the case of the Russell, it was just too obvious.

Of course I got the music in trades, too, but they presented it *just* the way I shared it, with exactly the information I researched back then (which now has been proved wrong).

Anyway... it's just too bad that those who prefer buying these discs, instead of trading CDRs, they won't get the upgrade.

[Niko]

don't know where else in the world these work, but i can stream the land album for free here

on deezer and lastfm

(both sites have most of the lonehill catalogue (and at least for deezer also gambit)

[papsrus]

For instance, total no-buys would be:

- the Definitive rip-off of the Mingus Forties East Coast sides (originally a *terrific* Uptown release)

- the Definitive rip-off of the Parker/Gillespie 1945 Town Hall concert (again originally on Uptown)

- the Jazz Factory version of the Quintet's "Jazz at Massey Hall" (Debut/OJC/Fantasy/Concorde [why can't they even spell their name correctly? )

- the Jazz Factory Horace Silver Trio (originally on Blue Note)

- actually almost any "complete Blue Note" or "... Verve" package on Jazz Factory (possibly just Jazz Factory in its entirety should be forgotten!)

I just received the Jazz Factory Massey Hall concert and there's no question for me that it's a noticeable improvement over the Debut / ojc. In addition to being more complete, it's far more clean sounding, to my ear. They must have scrubbed it up somehow. I'll revisit the ojc later, but my memory tells me this is a big improvement. Plus, no Mingus overdubs, which just became annoying.

[Aggie87]

I just received the Jazz Factory Massey Hall concert and there's no question for me that it's a noticeable improvement over the Debut / ojc. In addition to being more complete, it's far more clean sounding, to my ear. They must have scrubbed it up somehow. I'll revisit the ojc later, but my memory tells me this is a big improvement. Plus, no Mingus overdubs, which just became annoying.

It may depend on which edition of the Massey Hall show you have. I think the newest mastering without the Mingus overdubs is the '02 K2, and the newest one with the overdubs is the 2004 hybrid SACD. Unless there are more recent masterings from Japan or something.

The JF edition may have copied the K2.

Edited December 29, 2009 by Aggie87