Fresh Sound & Lone Hill Reissues Discussion

[Big Beat Steve]

Many FS LPs of that period came with 4-page inlays with lists of their then "current" catalog and back catalog. Should include the bulk of it. You never seen any of these?

[brownie]

Maybe it has been mentioned before; but what's about those other labels mentioned on the freshsoundwebsite who release some cd's and then nothing...(without any prejudice about those labels)

Like; Wax Train, Jazz Collectors, Fine & Mellow, American Jazz Classics, et al.

I wouldn't be surprised if putting up countless subsidiaries (presumably with complicated ownership relations) makes it easier to escape responsibility for copyright/IP infringements.

Why would they do that?

They have nothing to fear as long as they abide by the EU regulations regarding the 50-year copyright limitations!

[Daniel A]

Maybe it has been mentioned before; but what's about those other labels mentioned on the freshsoundwebsite who release some cd's and then nothing...(without any prejudice about those labels)

Like; Wax Train, Jazz Collectors, Fine & Mellow, American Jazz Classics, et al.

I wouldn't be surprised if putting up countless subsidiaries (presumably with complicated ownership relations) makes it easier to escape responsibility for copyright/IP infringements.

Why would they do that?

They have nothing to fear as long as they abide by the EU regulations regarding the 50-year copyright limitations!

I may be wrong, but I'm under the impression that it's unclear if these labels have cleared the rights for covers, are paying royalties for compositions etc., rights which are not limited to 50 years after the release of the recording. Also, several of these labels have also been releasing stuff recorded after 1960.

[Big Beat Steve]

Even if it was so ... any label that reissues items less than 50 years old (i.e. not covered by the current EU public domain cutoff date) will be at risk, no matter what the name of the label is. If any authority would really want to investigate they should be able to overcome this hurdle of different label names just as well, and AFAIK it would not be exactly without risk either if somebody were just to distribute these labels here (if there was a royalty no-payment problem). So what would they really gain if they held a catalog of nominally different labels for distribution?

Which is exactly the same with those US reissuers who have their material produced and pressed in Europe in order to take advantage of a 50-year (vs. 70-year) limit.

No, look at it any way you want, the core of the problem remains the downright rotten, lousy, couldn't-care-less, spiteful attitude of the U.S (or wherever they may currently be) "owners" of the rights who evidently prefer to let everything remain OOP forever.

[Niko]

No, look at it any way you want, the core of the problem remains the downright rotten, lousy, couldn't-care-less, spiteful attitude of the U.S (or wherever they may currently be) "owners" of the rights who evidently prefer to let everything remain OOP forever.

would be easier to agree if there weren't releases like those immediate rip-offs of Uptown albums which are - legal questions aside - plainly unethical...

agree on the label names - can't believe that this is a serious help in escaping authorities...

[Big Beat Steve]

would be easier to agree if there weren't releases like those immediate rip-offs of Uptown albums which are - legal questions aside - plainly unethical...

agree on the label names - can't believe that this is a serious help in escaping authorities...

I agree with you there - when I wrote my above statement I was immediately thinking of Uptown as a "different" matter, and I find those plagiate duplicates of Uptown reissues highly unethical too.

Yet, as often mentioned before, there are other cases (outside the Spanish/Andorran fraternity) that look comparable to me, except that these are not as widely criticized HERE because the music it is all about does not fall within the core realm of bop/hard bop dear to the hearts of oh so many here (in short, other potentially "seamy" labels might deserve threads like this too).

BUT - what I meant to stress are Fresh Sound (and similar labels') reissues of music that really, really nowhere else (least of all in the US of A) get any attention reissue-wise and that those who just MIGHT still have the rights just don't give a hoot about.

Edited April 13, 2010 by Big Beat Steve

[John L]

Yes, let's face it. The market for jazz reissues has pretty much fallen apart. The European bootleg labels might have been right accused of playing a major role in this until recent years. But it is now primarily free downloading that is out of control. For those who want genuine (non-CDR) CDs of reissued music, the boot labels are a very large share of what is available.

[Brad]

Maybe it has been mentioned before; but what's about those other labels mentioned on the freshsoundwebsite who release some cd's and then nothing...(without any prejudice about those labels)

Like; Wax Train, Jazz Collectors, Fine & Mellow, American Jazz Classics, et al.

I wouldn't be surprised if putting up countless subsidiaries (presumably with complicated ownership relations) makes it easier to escape responsibility for copyright/IP infringements.

It all depends if they're thinly capitalized and act as if they're independent companies. Otherwise, the corporate veil can be pierced.

[JETman]

Spoken like a true lawyer!

[gmonahan]

Maybe it has been mentioned before; but what's about those other labels mentioned on the freshsoundwebsite who release some cd's and then nothing...(without any prejudice about those labels)

Like; Wax Train, Jazz Collectors, Fine & Mellow, American Jazz Classics, et al.

I wouldn't be surprised if putting up countless subsidiaries (presumably with complicated ownership relations) makes it easier to escape responsibility for copyright/IP infringements.

Why would they do that?

They have nothing to fear as long as they abide by the EU regulations regarding the 50-year copyright limitations!

I may be wrong, but I'm under the impression that it's unclear if these labels have cleared the rights for covers, are paying royalties for compositions etc., rights which are not limited to 50 years after the release of the recording. Also, several of these labels have also been releasing stuff recorded after 1960.

yeah, I recently got the Lonehill J.J. Johnson big band 2-cd set that reissues the stuff he did for Victor in the mid-60s. The booklet reprints the original cover art in several places. Victor has never reissued most of this material (one compilation cd and the very fine Mosaic version of "J.J." are about it), so I'm happy to have it, but I'd be very surprised if the Andorrans got any kind of real permission to do it!

greg

[Brad]

Spoken like a true lawyer!

Guilty on all counts

[Jim R]

yeah, I recently got the Lonehill J.J. Johnson big band 2-cd set that reissues the stuff he did for Victor in the mid-60s. The booklet reprints the original cover art in several places. Victor has never reissued most of this material (one compilation cd and the very fine Mosaic version of "J.J." are about it), so I'm happy to have it, but I'd be very surprised if the Andorrans got any kind of real permission to do it!

I don't know, but just fyi, BMG Spain issued all of those albums on individual CD's in 2002.

[JETman]

yeah, I recently got the Lonehill J.J. Johnson big band 2-cd set that reissues the stuff he did for Victor in the mid-60s. The booklet reprints the original cover art in several places. Victor has never reissued most of this material (one compilation cd and the very fine Mosaic version of "J.J." are about it), so I'm happy to have it, but I'd be very surprised if the Andorrans got any kind of real permission to do it!

I don't know, but just fyi, BMG Spain issued all of those albums on individual CD's in 2002.

Yes they did. And Jordi Pujol was involved somehow.

[brownie]

Jordi Pujol had very legal distribution rights in Spain for RCA Victors recordings which is why so many of these sessions and albums surfaced on RCA Spain labels.

[JETman]

Jordi Pujol had very legal distribution rights in Spain for RCA Victors recordings which is why so many of these sessions and albums surfaced on RCA Spain labels.

Just stating fact. You'll notice no expression of opinion in my initial post.

[Fer Urbina]

That said - yes, I still do wish Fresh Sound and the other labels with similar policies (connected to FS or not) would make different choices in the pairing of their "2 LPs on one CD" packages. I remember when I definitely wanted that "House of Blue Lights" LP by Eddie Costa I eventually had to settle for a reissue on Lonehill or Definitive (can't recall) which came as a package of a "complete Trio" reissue or so, and - you guessed it - they packaged with the Costa-Burke Trio on Jubilee (I think) which I already had on Fresh Sound (of course ...). Their "complete" packaging makes sense if they go by specific lineups so are they to blame? I'd have loved an original or a facsimile reissue but the first is out of range and the second seems to have cropped up on a Japan reissue somewhere but at inflationary rates, so ....

A vicious cycle, I guess ...

Big Beat Steve, those are not strictly the *complete* trio recordings of Eddie Costa. An interesting 2-CD could have been made with those two albums, plus bits and pieces like a trio with Oscar Pettiford and Ed Thigpen, and other tracks taken from Shelly Manne's 2 3 4, Don Bagley's Jazz on the Rocks, and the live Newport '57 album (although for one unissued trio track on that one, access would be needed to any of the tape sets extant from that gig).

This reissue was made by LoneHill, and the Jubilee LP had been indeed reissued by Fresh Sound in vinyl and CD. So, no connection there: as far as I know (which is not much), as Brownie said, Fresh Sound/Blue Moon/Absolute Distribution are *not* LoneHill, Definitive, etc.

As things stand now, Fresh Sound is fulfilling the 50-year ban for reproduction rights. LoneHill and the rest, don't. FS is officially based in Spain, which would mean that they pay SGAE (the Spanish equivalent of ASCAP, BMI, or MCPS) for author's rights. LoneHill, Definitive and all the rest are officially based in Andorra, and although the 50-year rule applies there too, they tend to ignore that rule - it's probably easier to ignore it without risk, and I don't know whether there's an authors' society to collect royalties, but even if there is, controls are probably more relaxed than in Spain.

F

PS FWIW, I think the Uptown rip-offs were made solely by Definitive.

PPS Someone mentioned the Mainstream label. AFAIK Bob Shad's daughter has the original tapes for that label (and Time) and should be the ideal source for any reissues.

Edited April 15, 2010 by Fer Urbina

[king ubu]

The Time reissue series was done by Fresh Sound - were those "legally" ok as well? Not to debate legitimacy for once...

[Ken Dryden]

The legal costs can be enormous to collect any funds from either outright bootleg labels or those who skirt the 50 year time frame on reissues in Europe. That's why labels and artists rarely attempt to fight them.

[J.A.W.]

The legal costs can be enormous to collect any funds from either outright bootleg labels or those who skirt the 50 year time frame on reissues in Europe. That's why labels and artists rarely attempt to fight them.

Correct. The cost of any legal action can be very high. Bear Family sued JSP for stealing BF's masterings and won, but they didn't follow it up because of the prohibitive cost.

[Cliff Englewood]

Thank God !!!!!!!!!!!, finally there is some debate on this site about the whole Fresh Sound/Lone Hill/Spanish/Andorran/50-year copyright/bootleg thing.

This important issue has been ignored on this stie for far to long.

[Big Beat Steve]

Thank God !!!!!!!!!!!, finally there is some debate on this site about the whole Fresh Sound/Lone Hill/Spanish/Andorran/50-year copyright/bootleg thing.

This important issue has been ignored on this stie for far to long.

Has it??

My understanding (and recollection) is that there have been several threads on this board since 2006 or so that have dwelt on this subject quite extensively.

But if you would like to extend the scope of this thread to the doings of a couple of reissue labels from other (non-Iberian) countries to discuss the fact if it is just coincidence or a clever, cost-cutting strategy (with all that's involved in this cost cutting ) that by sheer coincidence their "artist" or "theme" releases or boxes coincide with other (previous) reissues and (in the case of the artists) cover virtually the same material all over again or (in the case of V.A. "theme" compilations) duplicate two thirds or three quarters of other V.A. boxes on the same theme (all within the Public domain period, of course) then that might make for a mighty interesting thread. :D

It is a wide field you know ...

@Fer Urbina:

I plead guilty to confusing that Eddie Costa Lonehill reissue with Fresh Sound.

However, that annoying Fresh Sound policy of combining two LPs (of which at least one had previously been reissued by F.S. themselves on LP) on on single CD can be found elsehere too. And it makes any attempts of LP AND CD buyers to extend their Fresh Sound LP reissue coverage into CDs rather a frustrating undertaking.

[jazzbo]

Considering the source, I thought that post was meant sarcastically.

[Big Beat Steve]

Ah, OK then!

Although ... one never knows, do one??

[brownie]

I should have added sarcasms of my own!

[king ubu]

Got the "Sonny Stitt Plays Jimmy Giuffre Arrangements" reissue on the American Jazz Classics label today. They don't even bother to state what country the disc was produced in... and the bonus albums is of course taken from the Roost label and hence useless as it's in the Mosaic. But I bet the Fresh Sound disc would have cost more than twice as much at the same store...