Fresh Sound & Lone Hill Reissues Discussion

[brownie]

I don't think Mighty Quinn is part of the Jordi Pujol conglomerate.

Pujol's label is Fresh Sound. The other labels emanate from Spain and are handled by the same outlets that take care of the Fresh Sound distribution. Please someone correct me if I am wrong.

The Mighty Quinn reissue of Pepper Adams 'Critic's Choice' did include one addition track from the session (Four Funky People) that was not in the Fresh Sound reissue.

Also that 'Critics' Choice' album was not reissued until the Mighty Quinn appearance. The organizations that handled World Pacific never bothered to reissue it

As far as I am concerned I light (or at least I should!) a candle for the good Pujol every time I enter a Spanish church which is very often.

[JETman]

I don't think Mighty Quinn is part of the Jordi Pujol conglomerate.

Pujol's label is Fresh Sound. The other labels emanate from Spain and are handled by the same outlets that take care of the Fresh Sound distribution. Please someone correct me if I am wrong.

The Mighty Quinn reissue of Pepper Adams 'Critic's Choice' did include one addition track from the session (Four Funky People) that was not in the Fresh Sound reissue.

Also that 'Critics' Choice' album was not reissued until the Mighty Quinn appearance. The organizations that handled World Pacific never bothered to reissue it

As far as I am concerned I light (or at least I should!) a candle for the good Pujol every time I enter a Spanish church which is very often.

Jerry Roche, who owns and runs Mighty Quinn and is part of the Mosaic family, was pretty pissed off that he paid licensing fees for the Pepper Adams reissue, and Pujol obviously did not.

Btw, it's my guess, and this is pure conjecture, that Pujol runs Fresh Sound, Lone Hill, Gambit, RLR and ALL of those other pirate labels.

[brownie]

A friend of mine who is friend with Pujol asked him specifically about any possible affiliation.

The answer was negative. I have no reason to doubt this.

Most Fresh Sound reissues are produced with the knowledge - and agreement - of the musicians or their next of kins. Which is why the reissues often come with liner notes that include photos provided by those.

The other reissues come within the legal copyright issues valid in the EU.

The same cannot be said (with rare exceptions) about the other labels.

Edited January 28, 2010 by brownie

[Big Beat Steve]

I for one have no reason at all to doubt the sincerity of the people that Brownie sees fit to deal with either.

Although I realize that - like somebody else said earlier in this thread - this is not really supposed to be another "nobody-makes-any-moneys-as-long-as-the-Spanish-reissue-this-stuff" thread , let me just summarize this:

1) For the time being and as it is now, the European Public Domain cutoff date is 50 years, and this means we are in early 1960 now, up to which date all complaints are rather pointless now, like it or not. This 50-year limit may change, but it has not yet. And that's that. And that applies to Lonehill and their cohorts too. (Copying of previous/recent reissues that did all the producing/mastering are a different story but that's another issue and the Spanish/Andorrans DEFINITELY are not the only culprits there)

2) Ever since their vinyl reissue days (when most of those recordings still were a long way from the 50-year P.D. cutoff limit) Fresh Sound have reissued material that explicitly bears the mention "released by agreement with ...", notably RCA and WEA material, for example. And I do think they'd really get themselves into VERY hot water if they put THOSE statements on blatant bootleg reissues. Not with those biggies. Nobody would likely give a friggin' d... about the Stepheny indie label , but THEM BIGGIES ... ?

3) I find Fresh Sound's policy of filling niches that nobody else seems to care for reissue-wise highly commendable. Who needs the umpteenth regurgitation of those BN RVG's for (at best) fractional sound improvement (or a remastering sweepstakes among those who consider themselves bigwigs in that field) if there's so much worthwhile music waiting to be made available again for the very first time?

4) As I've mentioned before , as long as so many others (who complain about those Spanish reissue labels, above all Fresh Sound) have no qualms about loudly advocating certain budget box sets from other European countries (and I am not talking about JSP) I cannot take their complaints all that seriously.

But getting back to the topic on hand, Fresh Sound DO run the BLUE MOON blues reissue label too. Any ill feelings out there for recommendations of these too? :blush2: I cannot see any substantial production difference between them and the "Classics" label, especially the "Classic Blues & Rhythm" series. Except that for my money Blue Moon has an edge for their liner notes.

OK, I cannot light a candle for Jordi Pujol (like Brownie would do) but I guess this is a good moment to dust off my Spanish vocabulary again and get seriously started on his monumental 550-page opus "Jazz en Barcelona 1929-1965" while the matching CD box set will provide the background to it (Brownie, thanks again for being my guide to the Gibert emporium where I was able to pick up those CD way back ...! ).

P.S. BTW, is it 100% guaranteed that all the Japanese facsimile reissuers always paid their licensing fees through the decades?

Edited January 28, 2010 by Big Beat Steve

[BillF]

As far as I am concerned I light (or at least I should!) a candle for the good Pujol every time I enter a Spanish church which is very often.

I'm not religious by inclination, but were I, I'd do the same.

[brownie]

As far as I am concerned I light (or at least I should!) a candle for the good Pujol every time I enter a Spanish church which is very often.

I'm not religious by inclination, but were I, I'd do the same.

This was in jest!

I have to confess I am a strict non-believing jew! But I am open-minded and do visit quite a number of the splendid churches that can be admired throughout Spain

[king ubu]

No no, what I wanted to say is: Mighty Quinn did the legit, EMI-licensed reissue of "Critics Choice", which is still readily available. Mighty Quinn are the good boys!

Fresh Sound comes on pairing a shortish Mode album (also still in print by what I think is the legit owner of the music, VSOP: http://home.earthlink.net/~magnebit/) with "Critics Choice", and that - even if is perfectly legal in yurp - is definitely NOT a nice thing to do. So Fresh Sound are the guys I'm ambivalent about... (also lots of their twofer pairings are annoying as they tend to pair an album that everybody - well me at least - tends to have, with another one that is rare, and at their high prices, I usually don't buy them for that...)

[Big Beat Steve]

Fresh Sound comes on pairing a shortish Mode album (also still in print by what I think is the legit owner of the music, VSOP: http://home.earthlink.net/~magnebit/) with "Critics Choice", and that - even if is perfectly legal in yurp - is definitely NOT a nice thing to do. So Fresh Sound are the guys I'm ambivalent about... (also lots of their twofer pairings are annoying as they tend to pair an album that everybody - well me at least - tends to have, with another one that is rare, and at their high prices, I usually don't buy them for that...)

That last point bugs me too because I am in the same situation. I have a LOT of Fresh Sound vinyl as well as music from that era released or reissued elsewhere but FAR, FAR, FAR from a comprehensive collection. I often find Fresh Sound has interesting twofer CDs but upon closer inspection I find that I already have one of the 2 LPS they combine into one reissue. This has often prevented me from taking the pluge too. HOWEVER - I would not necessarily blame this on Fresh Sound. IMHO it is not a matter if such exceedingly rare stuff being combined with common stuff. I cannot see the one I have necessarily really is that common per se. It rather is a case of previous reissues always reissuing the same material whereas other material constantly gets overlooked. Can't blame the (independent) reissuers for that. Not always, anyway ...

It is for the same reason that I have refrained from buying a LOT of those "Classics" series CDs. Anybody with a fairly decent collection of that music is BOUIND to have about half or two thirds of whatever is found on ANY (well, almost any) CD from that series in their collection in some other form. What we are witnessing here IMO is the same situation that was common back when CDs came on. Collectors were supposed to dump their entire previous collections and start from scratch or else they'd have to live with TONS of overlaps and duplicates in their collections.

This problem is definitely not specific to Fresh Sound, it is a common one in jazz reissues. Because unfortunately the situation is quite unlike the situation that often existed in the blues field, for example, where there have been many labels that have consciously strived to be complementary to each other, e.g. what was on Document was not taken up again on Wolf or Old Tramp or elsewhere (and vice versa) but they were collector-friendly enough to avoid re-re-reissuing stuff and to SPECIFICALLY fill the gaps left by other reissue labels and state this on the covers, up to the point of recommending COMPLEMENTARY further listening in their liner notes.

But who knows ... maybe it also is the fault of the attitude of the buyer public, in a way ..? Too many people maybe clamoring that stuff that went OOP is inaccessible to them (as if what's OOP doesn't exist anymore at all) instead of making an effort to search and track it down? An attitude of wanting to be served off the shelf? Reissue labels working the Public Domain years feeling (maybe on account of the feedback they get) that if they don't reissue the "obvious" stuff (obvious being what everybody seems to be aware of and what therefore seems to be considered "essential") their reissues will reek of being leftovers and breadcrumbs and a case of "scraping the barrel"?

Edited January 29, 2010 by Big Beat Steve

[king ubu]

Well, maybe you're right about the overlap... but then Fresh Sound takes their material from those previous reissues themselves, so they could make it a point to combine the rarer ones and wait about more common ones to disappear. But there the consumer laziness comes in I guess, and it's kind of amazing since in these internet times, you can order anything from anywhere and have it delivered within a few weeks. That was different even in the late 90s... I remember it took about two months for a local shop to get me Johnny Coles' "Little Johnny C" Connoisseur CD (but they sold it for "nice price", like the RVGs were priced after the first few, overpriced batches), so I wouldn't complain).

[Big Beat Steve]

Well, maybe you're right about the overlap... but then Fresh Sound takes their material from those previous reissues themselves, so they could make it a point to combine the rarer ones and wait about more common ones to disappear. But there the consumer laziness comes in I guess, and it's kind of amazing since in these internet times, you can order anything from anywhere and have it delivered

within a few weeks. That was different even in the late 90s... I remember it took about two months for a local shop to get me Johnny Coles' "Little Johnny C" Connoisseur CD (but they sold it for "nice price", like the RVGs were priced after the first few, overpriced batches), so I wouldn't complain).

Yes, "consumer laziness" is the word. "Out of print - oh my goodnes, it's gone forever and vanished off the face of this earth!!" Strange, I can't remember any single period during all my collector's life where I did NOT have to search around for a whole lot of REISSUES (not originals) that per se always had a relatively brief (store) shelf life, only to see other reissues being constantly available in 2 or 3 guises at the same time. Reissues appearing and disappearing really fast has always been part of the game as you cannot keep track of (and buy) everything of interest that crops up somewhere all over the planet (least of all Japan which often really has been out of reach in every respect). But even with formally OOP stuff matters are much easier in today's WWW shopping world if you are prepared to search and pay the shipping cost.

But yet, if it should really be so that all too many collectors really are that lazy and ill-advised and if "OOP" frightens them that much to their bones today then I can almost understand that reissue labels recycle their catalogs in ever shorter intervals if they have to assume so many of those "collectors" out there are totally unaware of what HAS BEEN available before and unwilling to SEARCH for what MIGHT still be available if they'd really look. And of course it is an easy way out for the companies to just recycle their product.

It is up to the collectors to vote by just not buying what would leave them with that many duplicates. But then I guess there just aren't enough of "us" (who already have the stuff) to make ourselves heard (and the "others" who do NOT YET have all that are happy to be served this time around), so ...?

That said - yes, I still do wish Fresh Sound and the other labels with similar policies (connected to FS or not) would make different choices in the pairing of their "2 LPs on one CD" packages. I remember when I definitely wanted that "House of Blue Lights" LP by Eddie Costa I eventually had to settle for a reissue on Lonehill or Definitive (can't recall) which came as a package of a "complete Trio" reissue or so, and - you guessed it - they packaged with the Costa-Burke Trio on Jubilee (I think) which I already had on Fresh Sound (of course ...). Their "complete" packaging makes sense if they go by specific lineups so are they to blame? I'd have loved an original or a facsimile reissue but the first is out of range and the second seems to have cropped up on a Japan reissue somewhere but at inflationary rates, so ....

A vicious cycle, I guess ...

Edited January 29, 2010 by Big Beat Steve

[Cliff Englewood]

Having got to know, but not owned, The Blues Hot and Cold in the sixties, I searched in vain for it for years, until I eventually found it on used vinyl in 2002 at Reckless Records (now closed down) in London's Soho. I'm so pleased to see it now issued on CD; it's too marvelous a record to be left to be forgotten.

It really is a wonderful record, one that gets better every time you listen to it. Jimmy Rowles is excellent on it as well. "7 X Wilder" maybe suffers a bit in comparison coming straight after it and the fact that he's playing piano on 3 tunes is a kind of distraction, he plays both trombone and piano on the last track on "7 X Wilder" which makes one wonder why he didn't do that for the whole album.

[Cliff Englewood]

I saw these recently and I am quite curious, are the worth getting? Opinions appreciated.

Bob Brookmeyer: Portrait of the Artist/Jazz Is a Kick.

Sonny Stitt: Plays Jimmy Giuffre Arrangements/A Little Bit of Stitt.(I think so anyway)

[J.A.W.]

I saw these recently and I am quite curious, are the worth getting? Opinions appreciated.

Bob Brookmeyer: Portrait of the Artist/Jazz Is a Kick.

Sonny Stitt: Plays Jimmy Giuffre Arrangements/A Little Bit of Stitt.(I think so anyway)

The first title on the Brookmeyer CD was a 1959 Atlantic album, the second title a 1960 Mercury album; both were done with larger groups.

According to the Fresh Sound site the Stitt CD only has the 1959 Verve album Sonny Stitt Plays Jimmy Giuffre Arrangements (10 tracks).

Edited February 17, 2010 by J.A.W.

[king ubu]

I saw these recently and I am quite curious, are the worth getting? Opinions appreciated.

Bob Brookmeyer: Portrait of the Artist/Jazz Is a Kick.

Sonny Stitt: Plays Jimmy Giuffre Arrangements/A Little Bit of Stitt.(I think so anyway)

The first title on the Brookmeyer CD was a 1959 Atlantic album, the second title a 1960 Mercury album; both were done with larger groups.

According to the Fresh Sound site the Stitt CD only has the 1959 Verve album Sonny Stitt Plays Jimmy Giuffre Arrangements (10 tracks).

No, seems they just didn't post the complete tracklist (as on amazon, see Cliff's link), but the line-ups give more:

Personnel on #1-8:

Lee Katzman, Jack Sheldon (tp), Frank Rosolino (tb), Al Pollen (tuba), Sonny Stitt (as & ts), Jimmy Giuffre (ts, arr, dir), Jimmy Rowles (p), Buddy Clark (b) and Lawrence Marable (d).

Personnel on #9 & 10:

Sonny Stitt (as), Jimmy Giuffre (ts), Jimmy Rowles (p), Buddy Clark (b) and Lawrence Marable (d).

All tracks recorded at Radio Recorders, Hollywood, on February 16, 1959.

These look interesting! I didn't even have any idea that Stitt ever played with Giuffre! A rather unlikely pairing, but then Stitt was a gun for hire...

[J.A.W.]

I saw these recently and I am quite curious, are the worth getting? Opinions appreciated.

Bob Brookmeyer: Portrait of the Artist/Jazz Is a Kick.

Sonny Stitt: Plays Jimmy Giuffre Arrangements/A Little Bit of Stitt.(I think so anyway)

The first title on the Brookmeyer CD was a 1959 Atlantic album, the second title a 1960 Mercury album; both were done with larger groups.

According to the Fresh Sound site the Stitt CD only has the 1959 Verve album Sonny Stitt Plays Jimmy Giuffre Arrangements (10 tracks).

No, seems they just didn't post the complete tracklist (as on amazon, see Cliff's link), but the line-ups give more:

Personnel on #1-8:

Lee Katzman, Jack Sheldon (tp), Frank Rosolino (tb), Al Pollen (tuba), Sonny Stitt (as & ts), Jimmy Giuffre (ts, arr, dir), Jimmy Rowles (p), Buddy Clark (b) and Lawrence Marable (d).

Personnel on #9 & 10:

Sonny Stitt (as), Jimmy Giuffre (ts), Jimmy Rowles (p), Buddy Clark (b) and Lawrence Marable (d).

All tracks recorded at Radio Recorders, Hollywood, on February 16, 1959.

These look interesting! I didn't even have any idea that Stitt ever played with Giuffre! A rather unlikely pairing, but then Stitt was a gun for hire...

The Fresh Sound site only lists personnel for 10 tracks; where do you see more, apart from what's on Amazon (known to be quite unreliable at times).

(edit) I just noticed that the CD listed on Amazon is on the "American Jazz Classics" label, while the one on the Fresh Sound site is on Fresh Sound. They both have the same cover, though.

Edited February 17, 2010 by J.A.W.

[king ubu]

Sorry, my bad - but amazon has a back-cover scan that is unreadable but clearly shows more than 10 tracks! Maybe there are various editions around?

[J.A.W.]

Sorry, my bad - but amazon has a back-cover scan that is unreadable but clearly shows more than 10 tracks! Maybe there are various editions around?

As I said in my last post, the "Amazon CD" is on the American Jazz Classics label, while the Fresh Sound CD is on, well, Fresh Sound. Different editions indeed.

[king ubu]

Sorry, my bad - but amazon has a back-cover scan that is unreadable but clearly shows more than 10 tracks! Maybe there are various editions around?

As I said in my last post, the "Amazon CD" is on the American Jazz Classics label, while the Fresh Sound CD is on, well, Fresh Sound. Different editions indeed.

Yes, it's truly weird as they seem to use the same cover!

I just saw the Fresh Sound version in a store, it has ten tracks, nothing more.

There was an American Jazz Classics discs among the recent releases, and judging from their layout, it's some sort of variant of Lonehill, the design looks identical!

Wouldn't be the first time that Fresh Sound and Lonehill do reissues that are partly identical!

[BillF]

I took delivery a week or so ago of the Amercan Jazz Classics item and am very pleased with it. I was induced to buy it from my memories of the Stitt/Giuffre session on vinyl in my youth and I still like it. Admittedly, Giuffre's four-man all-brass "backing band" (2 trumpets, trombone, tuba) is pretty unconventional, but Stitt fits well with it and plays at top form. Some tracks from this session are in blowing quintet format, with just the two leaders and rhythm section. Giuffe's tenor (Pres-influenced) and Stitt's (Bird and Pres) work surprisingly well together and my only grumble is that the recording quality leaves the rhythm section sounding a bit muffled. If that weren't enough, there then follows a whole album by a Stitt quartet with Jimmy Jones, where the recording quality is as excellent as Stitt's form. Recommended!

P.S. 20 tracks and 78 minutes playing time.

Edited February 17, 2010 by BillF

[Cliff Englewood]

I've gotten quite a few of the Fresh Sound and Lone Hill releases recently but this one below stands out, it's very good.

The Sax Section - Jazz Workshop: Al Cohn.

Three really nice groups playing lovely swinging tunes, especially liked the Clarinet work on four of the tunes.

:tup :tup

[colinmce]

Is that an original album or a compilation?

[Big Beat Steve]

It's a totally original album (Epic LN 3278), and it's really great indeed.

[epistrophy007]

Maybe it has been mentioned before; but what's about those other labels mentioned on the freshsoundwebsite who release some cd's and then nothing...(without any prejudice about those labels)

Like; Wax Train, Jazz Collectors, Fine & Mellow, American Jazz Classics, et al.

I have also noticed that some of the new releases are like faster in the store than that they are on their site...Is that possible? I have seen a Blossom Dearie album on 'Essential Jazz' that's not on the site...

j.

[Daniel A]

Maybe it has been mentioned before; but what's about those other labels mentioned on the freshsoundwebsite who release some cd's and then nothing...(without any prejudice about those labels)

Like; Wax Train, Jazz Collectors, Fine & Mellow, American Jazz Classics, et al.

I wouldn't be surprised if putting up countless subsidiaries (presumably with complicated ownership relations) makes it easier to escape responsibility for copyright/IP infringements.

Edited April 12, 2010 by Daniel A

[epistrophy007]

Maybe it has been mentioned before; but what's about those other labels mentioned on the freshsoundwebsite who release some cd's and then nothing...(without any prejudice about those labels)

Like; Wax Train, Jazz Collectors, Fine & Mellow, American Jazz Classics, et al.

I wouldn't be surprised if putting up countless subsidiaries (presumably with complicated ownership relations) makes it easier to escape responsibility for copyright/IP infringements.

Sounds logical. Thank's!

Another question; Is there somewhere a list of the lp's that Fresh Sound released back in the '80s? Spotted on ebay some lp's mostly by vocalists(Pinky Winters, Mary Ann McCall, Jackie Paris,...)that were never issued on cd or only through Japanese import. Can't understand why they never made it on cd on this label!?!

j.