Latest RVGs are COPY CONTROLLED

[mikeweil]

The last batch of Latin inflected Blue Note CDs was copy protected as well in its European pressings.

[mikeweil]

Personally speaking, I find the industry's hassle about copy protection is ridiculous. They want to sell CDs, but they want to sell the technical equipment for copying as well. We are supposed to buy the equipment but not use It?!?!?!

Or didn't they think about the possible consequences in the first place? Then they deserve it!

[mikeweil]

The copy controlled Blue Note CDs I have play without any problem on my Windows 98 computer, but it loads a special player from the CD to do so; sound is as good as usual. Don't have a burner, so I can't try this ...

[mmilovan]

It is a bit cynical to call these CD's audio, or to say something like: this is new standard for an audio CD... like EMI said. What it seems to me: this is very old standard but in new package: a "Mixed mode CD" or "CD extra" where data portion is used to bring compressed music (in any known codec, it can any known coded sound format that can be played with Media player), and audio portion (playable on any ordinary audio CD player) while this portion is disabled for ordinary CD rom players found in computer.

So, great idea! Everybody satisfied! You can play it on your computer (who will notice the difference on pair of plasic desktop speakers, right), play it on your audio, and you can not digital copy it.

But it is not audio CD!

Edited August 30, 2003 by mmilovan

[Claude]

So, great idea! Everybody satisfied! You can play it on your computer (who will notice the difference on pair of plasic desktop speakers, right), play it on your audio, and you can not digital copy it.

Yes, that's how it is supposed to be.

But don't forget that there are serious compatibility issues with "exotic" devices such as DVD players and car CD players. Many people now use hometheater systems to play music, and those sets usually have a DVD player for CD playback. As the protected CDs are not to be copied, you are supposed to use the original CD in your car, which may not work depending on the player.

There are also potential issues with sound quality of copyprotected CDs. I don't have information if the "Cactus Datashield 200" scheme present on the european RVGs affects the sound, but it is not a reassuring thought. Some tests have shown that the protected discs become more easily unplayable with scratches, because they already have more data errors in their original state.

I assume that Blue Note did not have anything to say in EMI's decision to protect their releases, but in my view it is especially counterproductive on the reissue market. Collectors are supposed to upgrade their old 80's CDs with the better sounding RVGs, but who wants to replace their CDs with discs that may have playback or durability problems and may sound worse because of the copy protection scheme?

[mmilovan]

Claude,

I must say - agree with everything you wrote. My intention was to bring some irony to my thinking - I don't know if I was clear enough.

If record company often spoke about the truth, fair games, copy write protection, etc. it would be honest to clearly explain what they gave you in theirs product - compressed music and formats that are not compatible to written red book standards.

But, it is not such the case.

The other thing is, of course, that protections of such rare available and expensive music are on the other side of mind or brain.

Or we don't know every score of the game. Maybe jazz is selling more than they told us, more than 1-2 % of whole record selling business.

[Claude]

For information and to update Claude's post Martial Solal's NY1 is NOT copy protected.

I just saw the Solal CD in a local store, it has the Copycontrol logo. Maybe you've got an import or prerelease CD.

[Clunky]

I picked up the Silver trio and Rollins Vol 1. Both at £5 and copy controlled. Both sound very good but given the concerns above these will be my last BNs till the longevity of this new format has been clarified.

May even pass on the upcoming Conns if they appear in this new format. I have never ripped a disc for anyone and object to being treated like a criminal rather than a pillar of the jazz community.

[Jazzmoose]

I have never ripped a disc for anyone and object to being treated like a criminal rather than a pillar of the jazz community.

I agree completly. Add to this the fact that any copy protect scheme is going to be a bigger hassle to the honest consumer trying to enjoy the product in a legal manner than to the pirate. Anything that can be encoded can be decoded, and with a financial stake in the matter, the pirate is going to make the effort. It flys in the face of logic, although that probably shouldn't surprise me.

[brownie]

Currently away from base and just peeking in into the Board all too briefly.

Noticed this interesting item from AFP which may have relevance with the new European RVG reissues:

French court says anti-copy music CDs are faulty: consumer body

Wed Sep  3,12:40 PM ET

PARIS (AFP) -  A French court has ruled that music compact discs which include functions to prevent copying amount to faulty goods and that buyers must be reimbursed, the consumer association UFC-Que Choisir said. 

  The court made its decision on Tuesday on the basis of a CD produced by EMI France of a song by the French singer Alain Souchon entitled, ironically given the judgement, "J'veux du live" (I want it live). 

UFC-Que Choisir is campaigning against the use of technical devices by manufacturers to prevent their CDs from being read by, or played on, computers, car radios or even some hi-fi audio systems. 

The association also objects that manufacturers protect CDs in Europe against copying but do not do so in the United States, fearing legal action against them there. 

Another association, the CLCV confederation concerned with consumers, housing and quality of life, won a similar victory in June when a French court decided that a protected CD must carry a warning that it cannot be read by certain players. 

[Claude]

I wouldn't call that a victory. It should be an absolute minimum requirement that protected (limited) CDs are marked as such on the jewel case and that CDs can be returned if there are compatibility problems with regular CD/DVD-Players that the buyer uses.

Amazon Germany has a strange policy in this respect: Copyprotected CD can be returned, but only if they are unopened. That's ok for someone who notices the Copycontrol logo only after receiving the CD (it can be checked on their website too). But it does not help those buyers who find that they cannot play the CD on a device that it is supposed to play in.

The condition that copyable media must be returned unopened seems reasonable, but those CDs are supposed to be uncopyable (at least digitally)!

So Amazon can refuse to take back problematic copyprotected CD if they are opened, saying "You have been warned by the logo that they may be unplayable on your CD/DVD player". Because thats what the logo says (from my memory): "Playable on CD/DVD/SACD players and Windows and Apple computers. There may be problems with some devices"

http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/tg/browse...4169412-3466450

Edited September 4, 2003 by Claude

[David Ayers]

Returns policy is a major issue, and we would all do well to ask retailers about returns policy before purchasing any disk. The simple answer is not to buy and to write to EMI. A decisive boycott at this stage could prove more effective than the courts.

Even if a copy controlled disk you have bought works on the machine you try it on it may well not work on the next machine you use - and you can't take it back when it fails to work five years from now. After all, they warned you - it might not work.

Edited September 4, 2003 by David Ayers

[mgraham333]

Just an interesting note:

I received all of Sep 2 RVGs today from CDUniverse. I noticed that the CD tray did not have the Compact Disc logo stamped in the plastic. I have with me at the office RVGs from 1999, 2000, and 2002 and all of those have the Compact Disc logo stamped in the CD tray. I mention this because it's my understanding that discs using certain anti-copy measures do not follow the red-book CD standard and therefore cannot display the Compact Disc logo.

What does that mean? Probably nothing. I haven't tested the discs for anti-copy measures yet, haven't even had time to play them yet.

Any thoughts?

[Claude]

The Compact Disc logo was used during the years when CD technology was protected by patents and had to be licensed from Philips/Sony. It was part of the licensing deal. The patents have now expired, but the logo is still protected by trademark rights.

Philips indeed refuses that copyprotected CDs carry the CD logo. But this does not mean that every CD that has no Compact Disc logo is copyprotected.

Edited September 4, 2003 by Claude

[mmilovan]

Apart from being marked as such - copy controlled, I think it would be fair to mark them also as "on PC devices this disc will be played from compressed source".

Edited September 5, 2003 by mmilovan

[Clunky]

Have I missed something ?

I have had no problem playing my RVG copy controlled Rollins Vol1 on my PC, it plays with the usual Windows media player and the tracks can be ripped by an old copy of free zip. So what's going on. Is the disc copy controlled or not??

. The sound quality of the ripped tracks sound unchanged so I can't be ripping the compressed files. Any thoughts ?

What ever the status of my disc I still think the idea stinks and for that reason I will buy no more copy controlled discs from BN