Hey Jazz fan, are you also a Blues fan?

[catman64]

I am a Jazz and Blues fan and I was just wonderin' why Jazz listeners tend to dislike Blues, and the ones who are into the Blues ignore Jazz.

With some exceptions that's what happens at the Jazz club I run.

In my CD collection, Ellington stands near Muddy, Lightnin' Hopkins close to Coltrane...

Do they have different audiences ? Or am I wrong and that just happens in this little country I live?

CatMan

[Christiern]

I don't see how it is possible to like jazz and ignore blues.

What "little country" are you from?

[catman64]

Unfortunately, that's the way it is here in Portugal. There are only a few who care about both genres (I think it's only One genre).

Even jazz students that i have met can't play a blues...

Catman

[Jim Alfredson]

The blues is the fundamental basis of jazz. Without it, jazz doesn't exist.

[jmjk]

I don't see how it is possible to like jazz and ignore blues.

It IS possible.

[Harold_Z]

Jazz and Blues are part of the same continuum - indistinguishable at times. What is Bessie Smith accompanied by Louis Armstrong, or Big Joe Turner with Pete Johnson, or Jimmy Rushing with Basie? Jazz? Blues? - or part of something that is inclusive of both terms?

Edited August 23, 2003 by Harold_Z

[jazzbo]

I would NOT say that blues is the fundamental basis of jazz, personally. But I'm a big blues fan though crowded out by my obsession with jazz. Hendrix, Hooker and T-Bone head my blues list.

[JSngry]

I can understand jazz people not caring too much for blues if all they know is the post-60s prediliction for screaming guitar solos, predictable and monotonous rhythms, and ultra-macho, often screamed vocals. That kind of music doesn't interest me too much either - it's formulaic, and aimed at an audience who has no knowledge or interest in too much of anything beyond brainless boogieing. An audience who takes Eric Clapton seriously as a blues player deserves what it gets.

But that ain't what I think about when I think "blues". There's so, SO much more to it than that, and any jazz fan who doesn't check out the deeper and subtler aspects of blues music (or their culture's equivalent, in the case of non-Americans)is doing themselves a serious disservice, at least in my opinion. Seek beyond what is readily offered in today's marketplace, and you can find a world, a universe even, of music and philosophy that is as profound as any jazz, at times MORE profound than most jazz, and is definitely tied into jazz in a primal way.

[P.D.]

I don't see how it is possible to like jazz and ignore blues.

It IS possible.

All things are possible in this best of all possible worlds

Somebody said that.....

[Simon Weil]

I think Harold Z nails it when he says:

Jazz and Blues are part of the same continuum

I mean, I think people like Ben Webster and T-Bone are obviously related. On the other hand I don't think you can really call James P. Johnson a blues player (although there's a vibe in there which does kind of fit him into the continuum thing.) - And he's a sort of primal Jazz pianist.

Other than that I respond lot of pre-electric blues and T-Bone Walker but am not really keen on electric guitar urban blues. And never really got into mainstream rock of the Cream sort (which is evidently related to black electric blues). Do like Hendrix, but he's very much sui generis.

A lot of Euro-Jazz isn't blues-based - it adds another dimension to the continuum.

Simon Weil

[Jim R]

I am a Jazz and Blues fan and I was just wonderin' why Jazz listeners tend to dislike Blues, and the ones who are into the Blues ignore Jazz.

With some exceptions that's what happens at the Jazz club I run.

In my CD collection, Ellington stands near Muddy, Lightnin' Hopkins close to Coltrane...

Do they have different audiences ?

In my experience, there is a considerable amount of overlapping interest among music fans. There are of course some folks who are more fanatical about one genre or the other. There are a lot of "blunatics" who don't care for the complexities of jazz, and there are a lot of jazz fans who prefer their jazz with less of a blues influence (people who can't digest a lot of grease ). And, as has been stated, there is also a great deal of overlapping within the music itself. It's hard to draw the line sometimes, and generalize about whay type of music is being played. The old problem with labeling music (the problematic nature of which is evident in this thread). It's all subjective to some degree. Personally, I don't think of Jimi Hendrix as a "blues" musician, although I know a case can easily be made. (I don't think of him as a jazz player either, but ironically enough in terms of this discussion, Hendrix was included in and pictured on the cover of Norman Mongan's "The History Of the Guitar In Jazz" in 1983). There are any number of artists who really can't (and shouldn't be) labeled as either "blues" or "jazz". Some artists are probably both- legitimately.

In terms of origins, how about "Blues is A (as opposed to THE) fundamental basis of jazz"...?

[Christiern]

I don't think one can ignore blues while listening to jazz--it's there, whether you hear it or not.

As Pia Zadora once came close to saying: "Remove blues from jazz and you are removing the yolk from the egg."

[Brad]

I came to jazz from the blues, to which I'd been listening a long time and frankly it had become kind of stale. The blues is obviously an important part of jazz (e.g. Parker's Mood, etc.) but there's a big difference between the blues as part of jazz and The Blues. The Blues to me is a pretty archaic formula without much inventiveness; it all sounds the same. That's why I got bored with it and progressed to jazz. In fact, I think the next logical step is to move to jazz. I don't listen to the blues much anymore but the bluesy feeling and the metric structure is obviously an important part of jazz. Would jazz be the same without the blues? No. Would the Blues be the same without jazz? Maybe.

[Chuck Nessa]

As Pia Zadora once came close to saying: "Remove blues from jazz and you are removing the yolk from the egg."

You working on a Zadora bio now Chris?

[Soul Stream]

I guess it all depend on what your perception and "likes" about jazz and blues are. If you're nothing but a Weather Report fan, I guess the link to Lightnin' Hopkins may not be apparent.

To me, Fred Below playing a shuffle behind Little Walter is pretty damn close to Philly Joe doing the same behind Tina Brooks.

That said, some kid playing Stevie licks ad nausium isn't necessarily linked to anything I would consider jazz.... However, the Vaughan brothers were/are huge Grant Green and Kenny Burrell fans among other things.

To me any true jazz player HAS to be a good blues player. If not, it shows.

[jazzbo]

I don't disagree with anyone here, I just disagreed with the singular aspect of "THE" in the term "the fundamental."

There are a lot of great jazz performances and concepts that don't include the blues, and I appreciate the heck out of these as well.

[Eric]

Huge blues fan here,although I came to it through rock, not jazz. I tend to like guitarists best:

Albert King

Otis Rush

Elmore James

Freddie King

Albert Collins

Magic Sam

Buddy Guy (older stuff)

Son Seals

Eric

[John L]

My primary love in music (and art) is blues music in the general sense, including blues-rooted jazz, blues "proper," gospel, and R&B. I understand that as a musical continuum that evolved together, i.e. not as separate entities, but as an organic whole.

Sure, there exists jazz with at best weak ties to blues music, especially since the 1970s. I like some of that music too. But the blues-based stuff will also have the top spot in my heart and soul. That is part of my life's breath.

[Chuck Nessa]

To me, Fred Below playing a shuffle behind Little Walter is pretty damn close to Philly Joe doing the same behind Tina Brooks.

Freddie was always trying to get me to use him on a jazz date. I heard him a few times in jazz based groups he led on the south side and he sounded more like Sid Catlett or Cozy Cole than PJJ. Damn fine drummer and good spirit anyway.

By coincidence I used his old partner Louis Myers on a Wadada Leo Smith date later.

[A Lark Ascending]

That the blues gave birth to jazz is undeniable (well, it was one of the parents!). That it was central to its shaping in its first fifty years, equally so. That it still lies at the heart of much contemporary jazz, no argument. That anyone interested in jazz might also gain much from the listening to the blues outside of jazz, seems fair to me (I just received the box of Newport recordings from the early 60s today - it might have been these artists second wind but it sounds pretty wonderful to these ears).

But that jazz has to contain the blues or that jazz musicians who choose to avoid it are lacking something. We're into jazz mythology there.

There are other ways of expressing the depth of feeling that the blues has given jazz. Choosing to leave aside the musical structures associated with the blues is not a denial of the form or its influence, just another way to rejuvenate and help the music expand in the many directions its been going. In that evolution there is room for blues based and non blues based jazz. They needn't be mutually exclusive. They both owe their origin to earlier jazz and the blues from which it partially emerged.

I can understand many people being unhappy with jazz that does not wear its blues on its sleeve. But be a bit careful in suggesting it is consequently lacking in something.

Edited August 24, 2003 by Bev Stapleton

[Soul Stream]

To me, Fred Below playing a shuffle behind Little Walter is pretty damn close to Philly Joe doing the same behind Tina Brooks.

Freddie was always trying to get me to use him on a jazz date. I heard him a few times in jazz based groups he led on the south side and he sounded more like Sid Catlett or Cozy Cole than PJJ. Damn fine drummer and good spirit anyway.

By coincidence I used his old partner Louis Myers on a Wadada Leo Smith date later.

I think out of all the blues drummers, Freddie Below and Odie Payne were about the jazziest imho. I always dug that aspect of the chicago sound....the drummers. Without their more uptown contributions, Little Walter, Muddy, Magic Sam, and everyone else's music would've been much different.

BTW, the Myers brothers were some baaad cats! I wish I could have met Louis, I bet that would've been great. Remember that band they had with Junior Wells'...The Aces?!!!

[Jazzmoose]

The Blues is certainly represented on my shelves, but not nearly as well as jazz. I like blues, but don't know as much about "who is who" in the blues field. With jazz, I was able to take a class on the history of the music that gave me somewhat of a road map to search the field. Looking back, it was a pretty basic map, but it did help. With blues, once I get past Johnson, House, the two Kings and a few others, I'm pretty much on my own. Add to that the fact that particular types of blues interest me a lot more than others (I'll take Son House over B.B. King, thank you), and I'm sort of up in the air as far as where to explore. I doubt my blues selection will ever catch my rock collection, or even my C&W collection (although the C&W I listen to probably ought to be in the Blues section anyway!).

[A Lark Ascending]

Jazz history seems to have been sorted out quite neatly. You can trace a linear story...yes, lots of sidetracks too...which makes it relatively easy to find your bearings.

I've read two or three blues histories and always got totally lost. All those field trips into this and that region coming up with micro-styles. Outside of the really big names it can be really hard to get your head round.

Which, of course, is no comment on the quality of the music. But might explain why there is some sort of system in my jazz collection where my much smaller blues collection seems quite random.

[paul secor]

To me, Fred Below playing a shuffle behind Little Walter is pretty damn close to Philly Joe doing the same behind Tina Brooks.

Freddie was always trying to get me to use him on a jazz date. I heard him a few times in jazz based groups he led on the south side and he sounded more like Sid Catlett or Cozy Cole than PJJ. Damn fine drummer and good spirit anyway.

By coincidence I used his old partner Louis Myers on a Wadada Leo Smith date later.

Not to get off track from the main topic, but a friend of mine and I had a chance to speak with Louis Myers during his break at a club date. He was playing very well and seemed to be a truly nice guy, but he was very tired (it was just a few years before he died). However, his face lit up and he seemed to come to life when I asked him about Earl Phillips. He spoke very highly of Earl Phillips, but said that he hadn't seen him for a while, and thought that he was in a nursing home. Earl Phillips is my favorite blues drummer of all time. He recorded a number of sessions for the VeeJay label with Snooky Pryor, Eddie Taylor, Billy Boy Arnold, and on many of Jimmy Reed's records. He also played on some of Howlin' Wolf's Chess recordings. He was a great drummer - could really drive a band. His trademark was that he loved to throw in some cymbal accents here and there. I believe I read somewhere that he played with big bands at some point in his career. He also had one 45 issued on VeeJay, but I've never heard it.

Back to Louis Myers, another wonderful musician - check him out on Little Walter's and Junior Wells' early recordings, on his his own date, I'm a Southern Man (Advent, reissued on CD by Hightone), and solo on an anthology, Chicago Blues at Home (also Advent, Hightone). I've wondered how he came to record with Wadada Leo Smith on Procession of the Great Ancestry. If Chuck wants to give some background and details, I bet it's an interesting story.

And to answer the question posted, I don't have as many blues recordings as jazz recordings in my collection, but it's damn close.

Edited August 24, 2003 by paul secor

[Jim R]

I came to jazz from the blues, to which I'd been listening a long time and frankly it had become kind of stale. The blues is obviously an important part of jazz (e.g. Parker's Mood, etc.) but there's a big difference between the blues as part of jazz and The Blues. The Blues to me is a pretty archaic formula without much inventiveness; it all sounds the same.

Hmmm... I've got to disagree with that a bit, even though I'm sympathetic to some of what you say, Brad. I too was interested in blues for several years before I really got into jazz. A lot of it WAS monotonous, unimaginative, and stale. However, I always found enough creativity- especially in terms of song structure (things that went well beyond the typical 12-bar patterns)- to keep me interested. I think I was fortunate in terms of timing, in that the genre was experiencing a renaissance during the 70's. There were a lot of great young artists coming up (Robert Cray, Stevie Ray Vaughan, the T-Birds, Duke Robillard and Roomful, Little Charlie & the Nightcats, etc etc) in addition to many of the greats still being around. Plus, we had the advent of major festivals, including the SFBF, which I was fortunate enough to live fairly close to. Most of the local no-name bands were in the stereotypical "wannabe macho hardcore Chicago screaming guitar" mold, but at the same time there were a lot of people stretching the boundaries in different directions (blending soul, rock, jazz and other influences into the mix).

Speaking of jazz-tinged styles coming out of Chicago, I've got to mention Robert Jr. Lockwood. He put out a couple of LP's on the Trix label in the 70's that were just as much jazz as they were blues.

Another favorite guitarist of mine back then was Billy Butler, who I could never bring myself to label.

Then there was Robben Ford...