Bob Dylan corner

[blind-blake]

One of my favorites

Love this one, too.

Edited February 16, 2015 by blind-blake

[blind-blake]

A great song...

Edited February 16, 2015 by blind-blake

[Mori]

"A lot of people don't know this, but the blues, which is an American music, is not what you think it is. It's a combination of Arabic violins and Strauss waltzes working it out. But it's true."

What exactly is he trying to get at here?

Never easy to say because the guy expresses himself metaphorically, not factually. But I would guess his meanings include something like "blues sounds simple, but is complex with a high degree of musicality, also mixes many disparate elements that could only come together in the time and place it did, our ears have got accustomed to this stuff, but it is passing strange, stranger than you think, and carries an unimpeachable truth" Or to put it another way -

Well, God is in His heaven

And we all want what’s His

But power and greed and corruptible seed

Seem to be all that there is

I’m gazing out the window

Of the St. James Hotel

And I know no one can sing the blues

Like Blind Willie McTell

Edited February 16, 2015 by Mori

[jazzbo]

I really like these Dylan lyrics, and what Mumford et al did with them. This is a "new song" I keep listening to lately.

Edited February 16, 2015 by jazzbo

[blind-blake]

"A lot of people don't know this, but the blues, which is an American music, is not what you think it is. It's a combination of Arabic violins and Strauss waltzes working it out. But it's true."

What exactly is he trying to get at here?

Never easy to say because the guy expresses himself metaphorically, not factually. But I would guess his meanings include something like "blues sounds simple, but is complex with a high degree of musicality, also mixes many disparate elements that could only come together in the time and place it did, our ears have got accustomed to this stuff, but it is passing strange, stranger than you think, and carries an unimpeachable truth" Or to put it another way -

Well, God is in His heaven

And we all want what’s His

But power and greed and corruptible seed

Seem to be all that there is

I’m gazing out the window

Of the St. James Hotel

And I know no one can sing the blues

Like Blind Willie McTell

Love that lyric

[blind-blake]

Here's a great lesser known one.

Edited February 17, 2015 by blind-blake

[Mark Stryker]

Moms, Mori -- thanks for the thoughts.

[AllenLowe]

hotel does not really rhyme with McTell; Bob is lazy and has been for some time, I think.

and what is it we want that's God's?

and what's 'corruptible seed' ?

Edited February 18, 2015 by AllenLowe

[mjzee]

Here's a great lesser known one.

I highly recommend last year's Blu-ray release of the concert; great visuals and sound:

[Mori]

hotel does not really rhyme with McTell; Bob is lazy and has been for some time, I think.

and what is it we want that's God's?

and what's 'corruptible seed' ?

Never just one answer to such questions, but possibly -

Corruptible seed = crooked timber of humanity, its potential versus the ugly reality

What "God" has and we want = perfection, the absolute, what Keats saw on the Grecian urn

Hotel / McTell - a half-rhyme. All the previous verses are set in the past and end with a true rhyme. In the final verse the narrator is in the present, trying to make sense of history. To my ear the half-rhyme is a great instinctive touch, yoking together two fragments of the past and ending with a tinge of dissonance , rather than the sense of closure you'd get from a true rhyme. The past is not over. It's alive today.

Edited February 19, 2015 by Mori

[blind-blake]

Here's a great lesser known one.

http://youtu.be/LC2roZjsv44

http://youtu.be/g5HrkAB7sAY

I highly recommend last year's Blu-ray release of the concert; great visuals and sound:

Will check it out. Thanks man.

[blind-blake]

hotel does not really rhyme with McTell; Bob is lazy and has been for some time, I think.

and what is it we want that's God's?

and what's 'corruptible seed' ?

Dylan seems to have written a lot of his lyrics to fit his own voice and phrasing, and so what looks on the page like a rhyme that doesn't work, ends up sounding perfectly fine when he performs it. One thing I love about his lyrics is the chance-taking and humor he uses in his rhymes, like pairing Honalul-lah with Ashtabula in "You're gonna make me lonesome when you go." Dylan also read a lot of free verse poetry, and of course he listened to a lot of blues and country, where perfectly formed rhymes were less important than the overall presentation and emotional content. Dylan obviously didn't emulate conservative lyricists, like Gilbert and Sullivan, whose rhyming schemes had to be perfectly in sync, but that's part of Dylan's coolness, in my opinion. In part, that's why I posted "Foot of pride" above, which, for me, really demonstrates the rugged appeal of his words. And it's hard to resist (for me, anyway) the sarcasm, barely concealed anger, and gospel fervor of this song. The two I posted from "Blood on the "Tracks" get across Dylan's enormously powerful but unsappy way with love songs. I also REALLY like the "On the Road," Beat Generation imagery of "Tangled Up in Blue." Dylan's "impossible-to-understand" lyrics probably came out of his deep appreciation for Rimbaud, whose New Vision approach, which was taken up by the Beats and other modern poets, was in large part about uninhibited self-expression. Got more to say here, but need to take my kid to the movies. Edited February 20, 2015 by blind-blake

[mjzee]

Speaking of the concert, Eric Clapton just nailed this one:

http://youtu.be/ZphtG5koFlo

[John L]

Dylan seems to have written a lot of his lyrics to fit his own voice and phrasing, and so what looks on the page like a rhyme that doesn't work, ends up sounding perfectly fine when he performs it.

Bingo! Dylan's phrasing is certainly a big part of what makes him so special and unique.

[MomsMobley]

hotel does not really rhyme with McTell; Bob is lazy and has been for some time, I think.

and what is it we want that's God's?

and what's 'corruptible seed' ?

Dylan seems to have written a lot of his lyrics to fit his own voice and phrasing, and so what looks on the page like a rhyme that doesn't work, ends up sounding perfectly fine when he performs it. One thing I love about his lyrics is the chance-taking and humor he uses in his rhymes, like pairing Honalul-lah with Ashtabula in "You're gonna make me lonesome when you go." Dylan also read a lot of free verse poetry, and of course he listened to a lot of blues and country, where perfectly formed rhymes were less important than the overall presentation and emotional content. Dylan obviously didn't emulate conservative lyricists, like Gilbert and Sullivan, whose rhyming schemes had to be perfectly in sync, but that's part of Dylan's coolness, in my opinion. In part, that's why I posted "Foot of pride" above, which, for me, really demonstrates the rugged appeal of his words. And it's hard to resist (for me, anyway) the sarcasm, barely concealed anger, and gospel fervor of this song. The two I posted from "Blood on the "Tracks" get across Dylan's enormously powerful but unsappy way with love songs. I also REALLY like the "On the Road," Beat Generation imagery of "Tangled Up in Blue." Dylan's "impossible-to-understand" lyrics probably came out of his deep appreciation for Rimbaud, whose New Vision approach, which was taken up by the Beats and other modern poets, was in large part about uninhibited self-expression. Got more to say here, but need to take my kid to the movies.

not sure any of us know what "diddy wah diddy" means blake but i'll grant you're a Dylan enthusiast. i used to make similarly impassioned pleas for, oh i dunno... "Just Like Tom T. Hall Blues"? "New Danville Girl"? (the original recording, not the retitled "Knocked Out Loaded" abortion.) maybe even some demo version of "Caribbean Wind"? this last, from a period of misdirection, true. Both Allen Ginsberg/Dylan "Vomit Express" and Danko/Grogan "Java Blues" are far more sustaining.

at his best, Dylan has come up with some novel combinations of prosody, image etc... he's also come up with A LOT banal dogshit-- some of which is redeemed by inspired musical performances (again, return to Paul Williams, not some slumming English professor, for details), much of which is not. This is why Dylan's albums since the vigorous "Love And Theft" suck-- cornball readymades straight up & down, on the page & in the air. Cultists may find glimmers but please...

In a vast world of now easily accessible musical & literary achievement, why bother?

And in a world of brilliantly layered English/Scots ballads & world folktales and literature (try the "Baghavad Gita" or Cao Xueqin "Dream of the Red Chamber" for starters) why did anyone ever bother with garbage like "Lily, Rosemary and Jack of Hearts"? "Roll On, John" is of course deathless, yuk yuk yuk, Leos Janacek only wishes he'd been so aged & vital. Dylan's "Titanic" is so fucking awful, on every possible level, it's almost enough to make one wish they had gone down with the great ship etc.

Even at Dylan's peak btw, one was then and is now vastly better off reading any random dozen Grove Press/Evergreen books than thinking too hard about Dylan's meaning, which is almost invariably trite or commonplace. At certain times, with certain bands, the music-- and singing-- is engaging: 1963-1966; 1967 ("John Wesley Harding," mostly NOT "The Basement Tapes"-- a handful of good songs & lotsa dross-- & definitely not garbage like "Nashville Skyline")... then the great Elvis-influenced gospel bands (the words were mostly silly/doctrine but the live, with the sermons & backup singers etc, the songs cooked).

white people LOVE the song Blind Willie McTell... puts such gauzey sepia tint on the remarkable life of a sophisticated black artist/entertainer one needn't even consider it real, oops. Far less a "tribute," it's insecure yet arrogant Dylan pining for approbation, worth by association he in no way deserves.

Matty

Merle

Edited February 20, 2015 by MomsMobley

[Mori]

Interesting. The Fairports loved Dylan, Richard Thompson likewise. In fact R.T.'s favourite Dylan song is none other that "Lily, Rosemary and the Jack of Hearts." But then , what would he know? He's probably just a middle-brow.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CUtFXmS9FmA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AmmCSOpPzZc

Edited February 20, 2015 by Mori

[John L]

Moms - You are continually proposing that we should rank Dylan's albums, accept the best and reject the rest. But maybe some of us here who greatly admire Dylan are interested in the whole ball of wax, warts and all. I don't think anyone on this thread would try to claim that there are no warts in the Dylan catalog, even if we might disagree about where exactly they lie. Dylan was somebody who never hesitated to put all his cards on the table, good and bad, and I admire him for that. I also admire him for never resting on his laurels, which he could have been doing for some time now, always pushing in new directions, taking risks, and never playing the same music the same way twice. The new album is a case in point. It is a sincere effort to move into new and very challenging territory that leaves Dylan exposed. You might not like it, but should agree that it is a much better thing for him to do at this point in his life than playing Blowing in the Wind and Tambourine Man at folk sing alongs in old peoples' homes.

[blind-blake]

hotel does not really rhyme with McTell; Bob is lazy and has been for some time, I think.

and what is it we want that's God's?

and what's 'corruptible seed' ?

Dylan seems to have written a lot of his lyrics to fit his own voice and phrasing, and so what looks on the page like a rhyme that doesn't work, ends up sounding perfectly fine when he performs it. One thing I love about his lyrics is the chance-taking and humor he uses in his rhymes, like pairing Honalul-lah with Ashtabula in "You're gonna make me lonesome when you go." Dylan also read a lot of free verse poetry, and of course he listened to a lot of blues and country, where perfectly formed rhymes were less important than the overall presentation and emotional content. Dylan obviously didn't emulate conservative lyricists, like Gilbert and Sullivan, whose rhyming schemes had to be perfectly in sync, but that's part of Dylan's coolness, in my opinion. In part, that's why I posted "Foot of pride" above, which, for me, really demonstrates the rugged appeal of his words. And it's hard to resist (for me, anyway) the sarcasm, barely concealed anger, and gospel fervor of this song. The two I posted from "Blood on the "Tracks" get across Dylan's enormously powerful but unsappy way with love songs. I also REALLY like the "On the Road," Beat Generation imagery of "Tangled Up in Blue." Dylan's "impossible-to-understand" lyrics probably came out of his deep appreciation for Rimbaud, whose New Vision approach, which was taken up by the Beats and other modern poets, was in large part about uninhibited self-expression. Got more to say here, but need to take my kid to the movies.

not sure any of us know what "diddy wah diddy" means blake but i'll grant you're a Dylan enthusiast. i used to make similarly impassioned pleas for, oh i dunno... "Just Like Tom T. Hall Blues"? "New Danville Girl"? (the original recording, not the retitled "Knocked Out Loaded" abortion.) maybe even some demo version of "Caribbean Wind"? this last, from a period of misdirection, true. Both Allen Ginsberg/Dylan "Vomit Express" and Danko/Grogan "Java Blues" are far more sustaining.

at his best, Dylan has come up with some novel combinations of prosody, image etc... he's also come up with A LOT banal dogshit-- some of which is redeemed by inspired musical performances (again, return to Paul Williams, not some slumming English professor, for details), much of which is not. This is why Dylan's albums since the vigorous "Love And Theft" suck-- cornball readymades straight up & down, on the page & in the air. Cultists may find glimmers but please...

In a vast world of now easily accessible musical & literary achievement, why bother?

And in a world of brilliantly layered English/Scots ballads & world folktales and literature (try the "Baghavad Gita" or Cao Xueqin "Dream of the Red Chamber" for starters) why did anyone ever bother with garbage like "Lily, Rosemary and Jack of Hearts"? "Roll On, John" is of course deathless, yuk yuk yuk, Leos Janacek only wishes he'd been so aged & vital. Dylan's "Titanic" is so fucking awful, on every possible level, it's almost enough to make one wish they had gone down with the great ship etc.

Even at Dylan's peak btw, one was then and is now vastly better off reading any random dozen Grove Press/Evergreen books than thinking too hard about Dylan's meaning, which is almost invariably trite or commonplace. At certain times, with certain bands, the music-- and singing-- is engaging: 1963-1966; 1967 ("John Wesley Harding," mostly NOT "The Basement Tapes"-- a handful of good songs & lotsa dross-- & definitely not garbage like "Nashville Skyline")... then the great Elvis-influenced gospel bands (the words were mostly silly/doctrine but the live, with the sermons & backup singers etc, the songs cooked).

white people LOVE the song Blind Willie McTell... puts such gauzey sepia tint on the remarkable life of a sophisticated black artist/entertainer one needn't even consider it real, oops. Far less a "tribute," it's insecure yet arrogant Dylan pining for approbation, worth by association he in no way deserves.

Matty

Merle

hotel does not really rhyme with McTell; Bob is lazy and has been for some time, I think.

and what is it we want that's God's?

and what's 'corruptible seed' ?

Dylan seems to have written a lot of his lyrics to fit his own voice and phrasing, and so what looks on the page like a rhyme that doesn't work, ends up sounding perfectly fine when he performs it. One thing I love about his lyrics is the chance-taking and humor he uses in his rhymes, like pairing Honalul-lah with Ashtabula in "You're gonna make me lonesome when you go." Dylan also read a lot of free verse poetry, and of course he listened to a lot of blues and country, where perfectly formed rhymes were less important than the overall presentation and emotional content. Dylan obviously didn't emulate conservative lyricists, like Gilbert and Sullivan, whose rhyming schemes had to be perfectly in sync, but that's part of Dylan's coolness, in my opinion. In part, that's why I posted "Foot of pride" above, which, for me, really demonstrates the rugged appeal of his words. And it's hard to resist (for me, anyway) the sarcasm, barely concealed anger, and gospel fervor of this song. The two I posted from "Blood on the "Tracks" get across Dylan's enormously powerful but unsappy way with love songs. I also REALLY like the "On the Road," Beat Generation imagery of "Tangled Up in Blue." Dylan's "impossible-to-understand" lyrics probably came out of his deep appreciation for Rimbaud, whose New Vision approach, which was taken up by the Beats and other modern poets, was in large part about uninhibited self-expression. Got more to say here, but need to take my kid to the movies.

not sure any of us know what "diddy wah diddy" means blake but i'll grant you're a Dylan enthusiast. i used to make similarly impassioned pleas for, oh i dunno... "Just Like Tom T. Hall Blues"? "New Danville Girl"? (the original recording, not the retitled "Knocked Out Loaded" abortion.) maybe even some demo version of "Caribbean Wind"? this last, from a period of misdirection, true. Both Allen Ginsberg/Dylan "Vomit Express" and Danko/Grogan "Java Blues" are far more sustaining.

at his best, Dylan has come up with some novel combinations of prosody, image etc... he's also come up with A LOT banal dogshit-- some of which is redeemed by inspired musical performances (again, return to Paul Williams, not some slumming English professor, for details), much of which is not. This is why Dylan's albums since the vigorous "Love And Theft" suck-- cornball readymades straight up & down, on the page & in the air. Cultists may find glimmers but please...

In a vast world of now easily accessible musical & literary achievement, why bother?

And in a world of brilliantly layered English/Scots ballads & world folktales and literature (try the "Baghavad Gita" or Cao Xueqin "Dream of the Red Chamber" for starters) why did anyone ever bother with garbage like "Lily, Rosemary and Jack of Hearts"? "Roll On, John" is of course deathless, yuk yuk yuk, Leos Janacek only wishes he'd been so aged & vital. Dylan's "Titanic" is so fucking awful, on every possible level, it's almost enough to make one wish they had gone down with the great ship etc.

Even at Dylan's peak btw, one was then and is now vastly better off reading any random dozen Grove Press/Evergreen books than thinking too hard about Dylan's meaning, which is almost invariably trite or commonplace. At certain times, with certain bands, the music-- and singing-- is engaging: 1963-1966; 1967 ("John Wesley Harding," mostly NOT "The Basement Tapes"-- a handful of good songs & lotsa dross-- & definitely not garbage like "Nashville Skyline")... then the great Elvis-influenced gospel bands (the words were mostly silly/doctrine but the live, with the sermons & backup singers etc, the songs cooked).

white people LOVE the song Blind Willie McTell... puts such gauzey sepia tint on the remarkable life of a sophisticated black artist/entertainer one needn't even consider it real, oops. Far less a "tribute," it's insecure yet arrogant Dylan pining for approbation, worth by association he in no way deserves.

Matty

Merle

For some who doesn't like Dylan's music very much, you sure seem to listen to a lot of it. I'll try and respond later.

[jazzbo]

I listened to "Bob Dylan in the 'Eighties: Vol. 1" over the last few days, a couple of times, and have to say I really really enjoy this effort. And the interpretations have made me really appreciate the songwriting and gave me a new look at the feelings and intentions possibly behind the songs.

[Mori]

Moms - You are continually proposing that we should rank Dylan's albums, accept the best and reject the rest. But maybe some of us here who greatly admire Dylan are interested in the whole ball of wax, warts and all. I don't think anyone on this thread would try to claim that there are no warts in the Dylan catalog, even if we might disagree about where exactly they lie. Dylan was somebody who never hesitated to put all his cards on the table, good and bad, and I admire him for that. I also admire him for never resting on his laurels, which he could have been doing for some time now, always pushing in new directions, taking risks, and never playing the same music the same way twice. The new album is a case in point. It is a sincere effort to move into new and very challenging territory that leaves Dylan exposed. You might not like it, but should agree that it is a much better thing for him to do at this point in his life than playing Blowing in the Wind and Tambourine Man at folk sing alongs in old peoples' homes.

Martin Carthy - another Dylan-loving British folkie - makes a similar point.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_6W6WzpphTA

[danasgoodstuff]

for your consideration

another one, make up your own minds, but to me in a perfect world, we'd have more like this to consider and less bagage surrounding them.

[danasgoodstuff]

Sorry 'bout the dbl post, this is what I was trying to add.

[MomsMobley]

Interesting. The Fairports loved Dylan, Richard Thompson likewise. In fact R.T.'s favourite Dylan song is none other that "Lily, Rosemary and the Jack of Hearts." But then , what would he know? He's probably just a middle-brow.

Mori, my sincere comrade in good sounds: as you well know, Richard Thomson neither wrote nor sang "Matty Groves," and though he sure played fine guitar, that lineup of Fairport-- also as you well know-- was a tremendous BAND. What he peeps about in some unseen interview not a concern-- and sounds like one of RT's dry jokes!

Further, every song on "I Want To See The Bright Lights Tonight" and "Pour Down Like Silver" are greater, in every possible way except callow verbosity, than any on "Blood On The Tracks" (save "Buckets of Rain") or "Desire" (save certain live performances of "Isis"). Also, putrid and inexcusably moronic as "Joey" is, the backstory and fusion of sincerity/idiocy that Dylan invests in it is... "remarkable." ("Astounding!")

Stange so few contributors here seem familiar with Paul Williams' Dylan books as he nearly alone and at length was championing certain sides of his career-- performance especially-- when most right thinking folk-- couldn't be bothered.

It's as a musician, and performer, that Dylan rises or falls for most of the last 40 years and yes, "Blood On The Tracks" was and remains middlebrow. If someone wants to grant it adolescent fervor (from a 35-year-old jillionaire of a man)... OK, there's room for value judgements.

I think Dylan's 1984 MTV interview with Martha Quinn posted above is far far FAR truer-- and charming, sympathetic-- measure of the man but of course we couldn't know that then. (If anyone wants to get all "textual" etc, there's more potential value in "Renaldo and Clara," depending on how you see/read it, than all the lyrics of "BOTT" in any of their versions.)

To take 95% of Dylan even half-seriously as a writer of song-as-verse, however, is ludicrous, and it's why "High Water Everywhere (For Charley Patton)" is a vastly greater achievement than ersatz "wistful" crap like "Blind Willie McTell."

Now, if someone loves that song, again OK, but we could also substitute damn near any word & it would make no difference, which is to say Dylan's writing is null, just sounds and filler. That's fine, it's music after all but are so many people invested in pretending it's more? For language & ideation both, Dylan's writing of words '80-'84 (say) beats nearly everything from "Nashville Skyline" through the tentative "Slow Train Coming." He did start pushing hard again, albeit oddly.

JohnL, your holistic view is a sage one but also why some of who were listening in the bleak-but-not-wholly-unredeeemed 1980s-- and those who never bought the "Blood On Tracks" schtick that more words = better-- have a difficult time with Zimmymania 2015-- let alone his lies about Tom T. Hall.

Ginsberg & Dylan

Danko & Grogan (kills anything the Band did after 1968)

Edited February 20, 2015 by MomsMobley

[paul secor]

We're blessed that we have a prophet in our midst to save us from the heathen Dylan.

[erwbol]

We're blessed that we have a prophet in our midst to save us from the heathen Dylan.

This is Moms' gourd!