Bob Dylan corner

[Leeway]

Dixie Hall obituary, note lead photo--

Compare Tom T. Hall or Merle Haggard's biography to Bob's... middle-to-upper middle class bar mitzvah boy, college dropout who wanted for nothing except maybe a few days when Dave Van Ronk's kettle was empty... And Bob worked hard, earned it, fine, but if Wiggy is bitter and lacking empathy NOW...

And what does that reference have to do with anything? (my italics/bold)

Please Lee, is that even a serious question? What do you think it has to do with, besides personal and community identity, at least a few strains of American historical narrative (Jewish diaspora, Upper Midwest of same) etc etc. I'm drastically understating: it means everything and to evade that is to be complicit with historical anti-Semitism... You know the story of Arnold Schoenberg's conversions and why, right?

(The economics of it matter, greatly, also. Compare Dylan's background, his ideas on labor value with the biographies of Tom T. Hall and Merle Haggard.)

The schtick "Dylan" playes with in other people's voices and now in his own absurdly dyed hair (or wighat) dotage is inane: like he's one of the oppressed... but not those oppressed, whose tales remain great, important stories! (Insert your favorite I.B. Singer & Cynthia Ozick & Philip Roth here.)

Instead this bitter schmuck Dylan plays like Mr. Americana, the voice of our collective historical concious of verities etc... It's farcical.

Indeed, it's so farcicaal at age 73 he still lashes out at Merle Haggard and especially the great Tom T. Hall and even Jerry Leiber, just to keep it jazzy--

That "Bob Dylan" forsook his heritage-- baruch attah adonai...-- but is still pissed off at Jerry Leiber essentially called him a fucking fraud-- which he was and is-- how does that work? Did Dylan's $$$ make him crazy or is it the hair dye?

"He was playing a role - I never believed he was real. Had a lot of chicks? So did Mickey Rooney. The fact that he was hip, inscrutable, and quiet - this motherfucker is self-aggrandizing and full of shit."

(That's from Josh Alan Friedman --> http://www.amazon.com/Tell-Truth-Until-They-Bleed , you likely know & already love his work with artist brother Drew)

Sometimes Dylan may fraud of genius, he may be the fraud of "If Dogs Run Free" but to front on Merle Haggard or Tom T. Hall--

-- and yes, lest we forget, Tom T. Hall's wife of four decades died a few weeks ago, think Bob said Kaddish for Dixie, tho' she knew far far far more of what, who Dylan pretends to be, from Mother Maybelle and Faron Young on down? Yeah, me neither.

(You know Lenny Bruce at Carnegie Hall where he extols this song right? Dylan's "Lenny Bruce" is trying to tell us something but dopily doesn't know how. Dylan had fifteen years longer to think about it and Phil Ochs' "Doesn't Lenny Live Here Anymore" still blows it away.)

So "Dylan" does have a "right" to be a touchy about Leiber and, classless wannabe salt-of-the-earther that he is-- though actually he's been a show biz functionary, however idiosyncratic, since he was what 19-years-old?-- he let Jerry have it.

However, as noted in previous posts, you 'fact check' Dylan's nonsense re: Kristofferson & Tom T. Hall, none of it holds up: chronologically, 'politically,' aesthetically, etc.

Shalom!

Nice comeback Moms, but I don't buy it. Your initial statement has the whiff of anti-Semitism, and you know it.

[John L]

Until that speech, I never thought of Dylan as really giving a shit what the music establishment thinks of him. Yea, you can attack him on all sorts of grounds, and many people always have - middle class background, "croaking" voice, mediocre technical command of musical instruments, etc., etc.

But the unique and highly affecting music speaks for itself. It always has. I consider Dylan to be one of the greatest musicians, artists, performers.... And I am not alone.

[jazzbo]

No you're not.

[Milestones]

At or near the pinnacle of all 2nd-half of 20th Century music figures.

[mjzee]

Absolutely.

[MomsMobley]

Mainly horseshit from the usual angry young / old man. The smartest guy in the room syndrome.

At least no "douchebag" references yet.

I'm done with this thread.

Q: how'd you feel when you're wife of FOUR DECADES died of a brain tumor a few weeks ago?

A: Robert Zimmerman is completely full of shit and his "opinion" on Tom T. Hall and Kris Kristofferson etc can be refuted FACTUALLY because the timline, and alleged grievances/schisms don't make sense.

Just because "Dylan" remains a heavily promoted corporate 'pop'/rock media figure & Tom T. no longer is doesn't change the facts. And just because rock (& jazz) listeners tend to know little about country music likewise changes nothing.

But yeah, "Bob Dylan," and his fans, are the aggrieved ones.

Roll On, John!

Edited February 10, 2015 by MomsMobley

[MomsMobley]

Nice comeback Moms, but I don't buy it. Your initial statement has the whiff of anti-Semitism, and you know it.

Thank you, Leeway. Actually I didn't know that but I'm like Anthony Braxton hustling chess with a 100 tuba orchestra in outer space, thinking many moves ahead and a multitude of historical contexts as much implied as declared though if one wants to sort through past statements, much of it is there. I wouldn't care to be misunderstoof on this issue, however, reviling all forms of ethnic, etc prejudice AND believing Dylan's Jewish heritage an important, fascinating subject for artist and audience alike.

In all seriousness, the Dylan cult and the passes it gives its hero is amazing; I'm a little baffled where this generosity stems from tho' Dylan has moments: his Jerry Garcia and Johnny Cash obits come to mind, also this sermon from Toronto 1980...

which, crackpot as it is... is yet brilliant, funny, nuanced etc. I hear the whole band was twice born though I'm a little unclear which western religion considers cocaine a sacrement. (The band and the performance of "Solid Rock" are superior also, albeit 98% derived from TCB era Elvis (which lineage will impress some more than others.))

But first Merle on his black love--

Maybe Bob's silence on his second wife was tacit tribute to Hag?

Edited February 10, 2015 by MomsMobley

[JSngry]

Oh, I think he's a "fraud", absolutely. But that's his thing, I know, always thought that he knew it too (that Tom T. Hall/Merle stuff is pretty unbecoming, but, hey, people are talking about it), so I engage/enjoy/ignore accordingly. I like, really like, his "world gone wrong gonna all END RIGHT NOW" stuff (beause that's a helluva lot easier to do than it is to do well) and his really goofy stuff, because nobody frauds a goof like a goofy fraud, ya' know? On other matters of his, I don't really care, so I don't pay any attention. Politics/love/geography/entomology/etc. just not interested.

so much of this shit that people of my "time and place" are supposed to have some ingrown toenail-resonace with... I just don't get it. Phil Ochs, don't get it. Woody Guthrie, Don't get it. Grateful Dead, don't get it, George Carlin, got it, then lost it, Lenny Bruce, get it, just don't laugh at it too much. And so forth. Cheech & Chong, really don't get that.

People done smoked TOO much dope, I think.

I'm a square, I suppose, except when I'm not, but oh well, c'est la vie. Pick your spots, as they say.

Bottom line, who's not a fraud, at least that you've heard of and do not know personally? Oh yeah? How do you know?

It's a Fraud's World (but it wouldn't be nothing without a woman or a girl or some kind of fluffer).

Hey, Onward. Let's go shopping, children, go where I spend thee.

[MomsMobley]

so much of this shit that people of my "time and place", I jsut don't get it. Phil Ochs, don't get it. Woody Guthrie, Don't get it. Grateful Dead, don't get it, George Carlin, got it, then lost it, Lenny Bruce, get it, jsut don't laugh at it too much. And so forth. Cheech & Chong, really don't get that.

Mr. S-- Phil a fascinating figure, went to Staunton military academy, Staunton, Va. became radicalized, the early protest stuff isn't the measure of the artist, the A&M studio records went beyond that with... 'curious' effect. Some great moments but generally, Phil and his guitar serve the ideation best. And he was a great writer, and a great singer, who thought/felt waaaaaaaaay too much about very difficult subjects and broke down from the effort.

Q: have you seen Bob Fosse dir. "Lenny" lately?

Highly illuminating to watch back to back with the astonishing "All That Jazz" (praise be Ralph Burns & George Benson)

"The World Began In Eden And Ended In Los Angeles"

Edited February 10, 2015 by MomsMobley

[JSngry]

Have not seen Lenny in a while. I remember enjoying it as move more than bio, so, mission accomplished?

I get that Ochs is/was a "fascinating figure", but, you know, who isn't, really? Big ones, tall ones, fat kids, skinny kids, even kids wtith chicken pox. I don't begrudge anybody their fascinations because, yeah, no doubt true. I'm just like, well, ok, more than enough of that to go around there.

You know who was a fascinating character? My grandmother on my mom's side. I thought I really knew her, and the longer she's been gone (almost 30 years now), the more extra-realistic she becomes, Native-American/Irish, got married at 16 to a man twice her age, followed her man right into the big NASTY middle of the East Texas Oil Boom (hello, gangsta cred ferrealz), bore two kids, took a break for about 25 years then had two more, reaction to Joplin on Sullivan was, "well, artists have always been a little different, that's what they have to do" so many questions I'd like answers to that just aren't there, mostly because I didn't know what the questions were. Hell, dumbass me, I didn't even realize that there WERE questions,right? Continues to fascinate be more as time goes by, perhaps because there are no answers to be had, short of what I can figure out now. We all want we can't have, as is said.

I mean, you got "characters" galore like her, tv, movies, books, cartoons, Lady Gaga, medias shitting out "characters" like it's what WAS for dinner, oops, didn't think it was gonna be THAT hot. But how many people do any of us know like that these days? They're out there, but if you haven't heard of them, that should tell you something, maybe, like, opportunity not sensed here, by anybody. And all the more better more better, I think. And if you can't find them, look better. And then, on a good day, Tom T. Hall, or, even, Dylan fraudulating about it in a most entertainingly believably fraudulent fashion.

So, yeah, art, entertainment, frauds, real-deals, it's all good. But "fascination", hell that's something best found inside-out, I think. But maybe not.

[JSngry]

...I'm like Anthony Braxton hustling chess with a 100 tuba orchestra in outer space...

Now THERE'S a Kickstarter project I'd throw down/in/with, like, immediately!

[chewy-chew-chew-bean-benitez]

i liked the parts about how he wrote songs by being inspired by other songs and he gave examples

[Mori]

"Lenny Bruce was bad / He's the brother you never had."

Thanks for the advice, but I think I'll take those Dylan lines over Phil Ochs' dirge.

[paul secor]

My old granddaddy once told me, "Son, you can't make one person smaller by trying to make other people bigger."

[jazzbo]

Grandparents can be so wise!

My Grandpa used to tell me when I skinned a knee, banged an elbow, stubbed a toe, etc: Don't get so upset. You carry a spare.

[MomsMobley]

from today's Washington Post "What DId Poor Old Tom T Hall Do To Deserve Bob Dylan's Scorn"

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/style-blog/wp/2015/02/10/what-did-poor-old-tom-t-hall-do-to-do-deserve-bob-dylans-scorn/

***

Haggard tweeted his kill-him-with-kindness response, but what of Hall, now 78 and semi-retired? Don’t expect to hear much. Friends in Nashville said Monday he’s been crushed by the death last month of his wife of 46 years, Dixie. A call to Hall’s office was returned quickly and politely by an assistant. “He appreciates your interest but really didn’t have any comment.”

Which is not to say that Dylan’s speech hasn’t sparked some conversation in Nashville.

“I don’t know what the motive was,” said producer Ray Kennedy, whose lengthy list of credits includes Steve Earle, Lucinda Williams and Richard Thompson. “For Dylan to have that kind of a platform and the whole academy, it just seemed weird that he picked on those writers.”

Kennedy also noted that, as is typical when Dylan gets rolling, his sense of chronology grows foggy.

Consider that Dylan basically stopped recording in Nashville in the spring of 1970. So how could he have been in a session there when “I Love” came onto the radio. Hall’s hit was released in October of 1973.

... But let’s examine the idea that Hall served as some kind of old guard, fuddy-duddy. Again, the facts betray. Hall mentored Dylan’s great pal, a then-unknown Kris Kristofferson, and was the first person to record a Billy Joe Shaver song, doing “Willy the Wandering Gypsy and Me” in 1972.

There used to be a clip of Phil Ochs on "Midnight Special" with Curtis Mayfield '73 or '74-- deep in his bi-polar or multiple personality period-- but, despite a broken arm, Phil's strong and Curtis seemed genuinely pleased to introduce him.

[John L]

Oh, I think he's a "fraud", absolutely.

Jim- Just curious. When you say that Dylan is a fraud, what exactly do you have in mind. Is he pretending to be somebody who he is not? Is he being praised for talents or accomplishments that are not real?

Edited February 10, 2015 by John L

[Larry Kart]

Moms — You like Fosse’s “Lenny”? Oy vey!

Like the proverbial stopped clock, the IMO usually wrong Pauline Kael could be right, and was she ever right about “Lenny.” In fact, Kael’s full review, linked to below, is the best appreciation of Lenny Bruce I’ve ever read, and I’m old enough to have seen Bruce in-person operating at full force in his heyday — albeit I was underage when I saw him at Mr. Kelly’s on Rush St. in 1959. It was like being the same room with a ticking time bomb.

Lenny

US (1974): Biography

112 min, Rated R, Black & White, Available on videocassette and laserdisc

This earnest Bob Fosse film starring Dustin Hoffman is for those who want to believe that Lenny Bruce was a saintly gadfly who was martyred only because he lived before their time. Working from a weak script by Julian Barry, Fosse accepts the view that Bruce's motivating force was to cleanse society of hypocrisy, and, having swallowed that, he can only defuse Bruce's humor. So when you hear Hoffman doing Bruce's shticks you don't even feel like laughing. Despite the fluent editing and the close-in documentary techniques and the sophisticated graphics, the picture is a later version of the one-to-one correlation of an artist's life and his art which we used to get in movies about painters and songwriters. Hoffman makes a serious, honorable try, but his Lenny is a nice boy. Lenny Bruce was uncompromisingly not nice; the movie turns a teasing, seductive hipster into a putz. As Honey, Valerie Perrine does a dazzling strip and gives an affecting, if limited, performance. With Gary Morton, Jan Miner, and Stanley Beck. United Artists.

Full review:

https://books.google.com/books?id=tkShTL84MrcC&pg=PT789&lpg=PT789&dq=pauline+kael+on+lenny&source=bl&ots=3vKVZDubQX&sig=Hpu2nAbpNl9DlNQhiUWJkTkGDjo&hl=en&sa=X&ei=43zaVLn9EoWfgwS0toTwAQ&ved=0CDEQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=pauline%20kael%20on%20lenny&f=false

OTOH, based on (deliberately) limited experience on my part, I agree with you about Dylan. I ran into him when he stopped by the U. of Chicago in 1960 or '61, this when he was still Bob Zimmerman, and felt that while he obviously had significant though somewhat ectoplasmic organizational gifts as a musician -- the talented U. of C. guys he played with on his visit there all sounded better than usual when he was around -- there also was something namelessly creepy about him. Then, just by chance, I caught what may have been his breakthrough gig at Gerde's Folk City in NY -- maybe a year or so later? It was fairly clear IIRC that he well might be going somewhere fast, but the aura of nameless creepiness had grown considerably.

[JSngry]

Oh, I think he's a "fraud", absolutely.

Jim- Just curious. When you say that Dylan is a fraud, what exactly do you have in mind. Is he pretending to be somebody who he is not? Is he being praised for talents or accomplishments that are not real?

Not fraud, "fraud" - I think he's an actor portraying a non-actor portraying an actor, etc. Not by definition a bad thing, just that when I dig him, I dig him, when I don't, I don't, and either way, that's as far as it goes. I don't find him to be "the voice of our time" , for sure not my time, he's just one of many.

He does make it real easy to be whatever "you" need him to be, though, and that goes to the whole "fraud" thing. I don't mind, hell, we all need some of that in our life at one point or another. And by the time it's all over with, the whole "fraud" thing may very well end up being the real voice of our time, because our time keeps on fraudulating up and over and but not yet out, yet, that is. But that's a world I only sometimes engage, dig?

However - I am not, and never have been, one to knock his singing/playing/whatever on the "skill" level. I think he's like Monk in that what he does, he means to do, exactly. So, that. But that's just one layer, the top one, really. After that...ultimately you get what you want to get, I suppose. I know I do.

[paul secor]

Bob Dylan's full MusiCares speech

I just read Dylan's speech and he's got his opinions and that's fine. I don't have to agree with everything he said.

Moms has his opinions and I don't have to agree with everything he says.

It does interest me that someone who calls himself "MomsMobley" has a problem with someone calling himself "Bob Dylan".

[danasgoodstuff]

Sometimes ol' Bob is full of it on purpose, this might be one of those times, or not... I ain't got the bandwidth to figure that out. Most likely he was just looking for an illustration of whatever halfbaked point he was trying to make and just grabbed something outta the air - it's not like he's ever been known for his research or editing skills.

[John L]

Thanks for that clarification, Jim.

Bob Dylan's music was so much a part of my growing up that I couldn't ever think of trying to give his art an objective evaluation. I just know that much of his music is very close to me and always will be.

[MomsMobley]

Paul-- I like plenty of Dylan and have since l-o-n-g before the current inane idol worship phase we've (re-)entered. The 1980 gospel tour is among Zimmy's very greatest musical work & within its own nutty, received bounds, it's lyrically trenchant also. Dullsville "Modern Times" & 'tastey' dogshit like most of "The Tempest" are a waste of everyone's time, save the idle idol worshippers. Roll on, John!!! Will we never hear (the loathsome) Traveling Wilburys again?

What I take extreme umbrage at is his bullshit about Tom T. Hall which is factually, historically, politically wrong, as I'm sure you & other know.

Interesting question whether a "friend" like Kristofferson told Bob he was out of line, DIxie Hall RIP sure but that's just for starters.

That the author of "If Dogs Ran Free"-- or fucking "Sara" for that matter (& lots others)-- could be churlish about others' low points...

Noone ever said he was "class," unlike Merle who's is an exponentially greater artist than Buck Owens ever cared to be; I'm a huge Don Rich & Buckaroos fan but come on.

***

Larry, I cannot believe you called up Paulin Kael for that!! Which compeltely misapprehends both Fosse's intentions (tho' she's correct to note its visual splendor) and Lenny's career. Fosse as director almost never works on just the surface level, which is all Kael seems to have recognized.

However, before defending "Lenny" further and explaining its "flaws"-- how could it NOT be flawed?-- I do urge you & everyone to rewatch "All That Jazz," one submotif of which is the editing of "Lenny" & which sequences feature the star of the Broadway Lenny, Cliff Gorman.

Not suggesting it's true in your case but generally-- & I once included myself in this #-- otherwise smart people drastically underrate Fosse as film director because they can't believe he's serious, that the dancer/dance guy really made great, highly individual movies (OK, you got Fellini first but hey, that's like saying Coleman Hawkins got the tenor first, of course, now whaddya do with it?)

That "All That Jazz" was a popular success of 1979 was remarkable then & flabbergasting now.

***

Bob can be charming when he's trying to get laid--

Edited February 11, 2015 by MomsMobley

[MomsMobley]

My old granddaddy once told me, "Son, you can't make one person smaller by trying to make other people bigger."

turn it on, turn it on, turn it on

greed kills more people than whiskey (from 1979, which is after the commonly accepted 'classic' period)

[Larry Kart]

Paul-- I like plenty of Dylan and have since l-o-n-g before the current inane idol worship phase we've (re-)entered. The 1980 gospel tour is among Zimmy's very greatest musical work & within its own nutty, received bounds, it's lyrically trenchant also. Dullsville "Modern Times" & 'tastey' dogshit like most of "The Tempest" are a waste of everyone's time, save the idle idol worshippers. Roll on, John!!! Will we never hear (the loathsome) Traveling Wilburys again?

What I take extreme umbrage at is his bullshit about Tom T. Hall which is factually, historically, politically wrong, as I'm sure you & other know.

Interesting question whether a "friend" like Kristofferson told Bob he was out of line, DIxie Hall RIP sure but that's just for starters.

That the author of "If Dogs Ran Free"-- or fucking "Sara" for that matter (& lots others)-- could be churlish about others' low points...

Noone ever said he was "class," unlike Merle who's is an exponentially greater artist than Buck Owens ever cared to be; I'm a huge Don Rich & Buckaroos fan but come on.

***

Larry, I cannot believe you called up Paulin Kael for that!! Which compeltely misapprehends both Fosse's intentions (tho' she's correct to note its visual splendor) and Lenny's career. Fosse as director almost never works on just the surface level, which is all Kael seems to have recognized.

However, before defending "Lenny" further and explaining its "flaws"-- how could it NOT be flawed?-- I do urge you & everyone to rewatch "All That Jazz," one submotif of which is the editing of "Lenny" & which sequences feature the star of the Broadway Lenny, Cliff Gorman.

Not suggesting it's true in your case but generally-- & I once included myself in this #-- otherwise smart people drastically underrate Fosse as film director because they can't believe he's serious, that the dancer/dance guy really made great, highly individual movies (OK, you got Fellini first but hey, that's like saying Coleman Hawkins got the tenor first, of course, now whaddya do with it?)

That "All That Jazz" was a popular success of 1979 was remarkable then & flabbergasting now.

***

Bob can be charming when he's trying to get laid--

My main problem with "Lenny" was the choice of Hoffman (I assume it was Fosse's, at least in part) to play Bruce, which virtually guaranteed that the real Lenny would not be in view. "All That Jazz" was quite something, as you say.

BTW how does Kael misapprehend Lenny's career? I think she may be one of the very few who gets it right. Or are you among those who think of Bruce as a crusading civil libertarian?