James Brown dies

[Alexander]

** belated props to Quincy for digging up the James & Nixon photo "we" reqeusted-- nice find!

*Dripping with sarcasim*

Yeah, never saw that one before...

Except in the booklet to Star Time.

Yeah, that's REAL hard to find.

[Adam]

got too much love for it

***

(special txxx to Titania for the tech assistance & pls NOTE: while Harlem has historical resonance, it is NOT-- no no no ain't no way anymore-- the center of black culture in NYC. Brooklyn is like FIVE (or ten) Harlems and one Spike Lee ain't come close to gettin' that message out yet. parts of Harlem are still aiiight but it's ain't thee thing anymore & hasn't been for 30-40-50 years.)

***

this ain't a great shot but note the illustration of 'fro era James the woman is holding-- right fuckin' on.

Thanks for the photos, Clem!

In this one, what is everyone looking at?

[Alexander]

Alvin, hate it to break it down to you but early hip-hop was a wee small evolutionary step that's been l-o-n-g since passed... now you wanna tell me you were rockin' King Jammy then, Smif 'N Wessun now, and therefore have a handle on the whole 'West Indian' <----> American thang & its continued importance... you might have some cred. As it is, son, you're flailing, & waaaaaaay too quick with plural pronouns tho' hey, share any cool Tony Conrad or Morton Feldman stories you have-- "we" would love to hear 'em.

signed,

Admiral Tibet

Gosh, he's right. I mean, I was nine fucking years old when I first heard Grandmaster Flash. Surely, I should have been out there digging the antecidents of early hip hop. How blind I was! I guess I just bow to Clem's superior wisdom...

[Alexander]

* "ALL of us" is a rhetorical construct that in fact does NOT exist. That Al throws it around like crumbs before pigeons is evidence he ain't THINK!!!in' shit through.

Listen to "I Have A Dream" again, Clem. King was doing it for AMERICA. For HUMANITY. He was thinking far beyond black and white. So go fuck yourself AND the horse you rode in on too.

[Adam]

JB is easily one of the top 5 black people of all time.

The reason I find this premise so distasteful is the assumption of the author and, obviously, others by their lists, to associate fame and celebrity with importance. Maybe some people ought to find out about the contributions of people like Benjamin Banaker, Garrett Morgan, Louis Lattimer, Hannibal, Elijah McCoy, Madam Walker, Nefertiti and other great queens and kings of Egypt, Timbuktu and other African nations, Gamal Abdel Nasser, Anwar Sadat, Toussaint L'Ouverture, Marcus Garvey, Jomo Kenyatta, Kwame Nkrumah, Madam Walker, Marshall "Major" Taylor and too many more to list.

All "the top 5 black people" aren't/were not entertainers, athletes and/or Americans. Just because you don't know their names doesn't mean that they have not profoundly impacted the world.

"Black"

I've read a few times in the past couple of days that after the release of the song "Say It Loud I'm Black and I'm Proud", African-Americans in the USA basically started callings themselves "black" as oppposed to "Negro" or "colored." Or allowed themselves to be called "black." or no longer saw it as an insult. or some permutation thereof.

First, for those of you who were around, do you remember it happening that way?

Second, if it did, I would argue that that could be seen as Brown's biggest influence (or one of them) - allowing a people to redefine the language by which they refer to or define themselves. I would argue that he did so musically, and here is an instance of him perhaps doing it linguistically as well. Creating a new language (or languages) that a whole people use for self-definition - that's a pretty big deal. Obviously not a single-handed action, but what is?

[Alexander]

funny you keep skippin' on King & Marshall, King & Marshall-- makes ALL of us* think you don't really know so much about the narratives of civil rights, constitutional law or progressive/radical history as you front-- not to mention the still touchy subject of skin tone. we await yr lecture on Anatole Broyard w/baited breath.

You know, you're absolutely right. I don't know shit about no black people, boss. Why, the only names that spring to my mind are obvious ones like Benjamin Banneker, Percy Julian, Carter Woodson, Whitney Young, James Weldon Johnson, Matthew Henson, Fannie Lou Hamer and Paul Laurence Dunbar. Doesn't EVERYBODY think of those names first off?

Oh, and the only Anatole Broyard I know is the wit and critic. You know, the one who some have claim "passed" for white (obvious inspiration for Coleman Silk in the Philip Roth novel "The Human Stain"). Yes, the notion of "passing" is an interesting one that raises a number of questions about personal identity (if a man considers *himself* white (regardless of parentage), does that make him white?). I prefer to ponder the case of George Herriman, myself...

[Harold_Z]

First, for those of you who were around, do you remember it happening that way?

No. The term Black was in common usage by the time JB recorded "Black and Proud".

[Cali]

First, for those of you who were around, do you remember it happening that way?

No. The term Black was in common usage by the time JB recorded "Black and Proud".

The term Black was made popular years before JB's record. People who inspired this redefinition were Elijah Muhammad, the Black Panther Party, Malcom X, Muhammad Ali, Angela Davis, Jim Brown, Kareem Abdul Jabbar, Stokely Carmichael, H. Rap Brown and lots more. James, actually, was kind of late to the game and surprised a lot of us when he got on the bandwagon.

[felser]

I agree with that, except that I think you have to answer the "important to who" question first.

It's when you get to ranking unquantifiable items that I lose interest (and in this case, it also seems rather distasteful to me). I think we may be in agreement on that point as well.

Yes we are.

[Jim Alfredson]

Why all this argument over something chewy (aka, Aric) said?

[Big Al]

Why all this argument over something chewy (aka, Aric) said?

A-frickin'-men!!!

Nothing like white people arguing over who was the greatest black person.

[Jim Alfredson]

But people aren't even arguing over the same thing! Clem is arguing about whether JB was one of the greatest black people of the 20th century, and Alexander is arguing about whether he's in the top 5 of all-time.

At least define the terms before dropping the f-bomb on each other.

[Big Al]

Really, all that's missing is Christiern to come in here and tell us what the black experience is truly all about, seeing as he's the only one who has managed to be both white AND black simultaneously.

FWIW, I wouldn't be surprised if he's linked to this thread from AAJ, much in the same way he linked to that JC thread earlier this year.

[JSngry]

First, for those of you who were around, do you remember it happening that way?

No. The term Black was in common usage by the time JB recorded "Black and Proud".

The term Black was made popular years before JB's record. People who inspired this redefinition were Elijah Muhammad, the Black Panther Party, Malcom X, Muhammad Ali, Angela Davis, Jim Brown, Kareem Abdul Jabbar, Stokely Carmichael, H. Rap Brown and lots more. James, actually, was kind of late to the game and surprised a lot of us when he got on the bandwagon.

Where I grew up (semi-rural East Texas), "Black" was considered a "militant" word (look at the list above, and you can see why people light-years behind reality on both sides of the tracks might see it this way). An African-American in those parts who referred to themself as "Black" outside of the African-American community was definitely not the norm. But afer JB's record hit, it was. The previously accepted term in the region, "colored", was over immediately. And it pissed a lot of white folks there off that "those people" would suddenly demand to be addressed in terms of their own choosing rather than accept what was offered.

Now, I was only living in one place at one time, but I can't believe that the experience in my region was completely unique.

[JSngry]

But people aren't even arguing over the same thing! Clem is arguing about whether JB was one of the greatest black people of the 20th century, and Alexander is arguing about whether he's in the top 5 of all-time.

Nah, that's just the vehicle for the real argument, which is that they each think that the other one is an asshole.

[Big Al]

But people aren't even arguing over the same thing! Clem is arguing about whether JB was one of the greatest black people of the 20th century, and Alexander is arguing about whether he's in the top 5 of all-time.

Nah, that's just the vehicle for the real argument, which is that they each think that the other one is an asshole.

Or maybe the real argument is which white guy is closer to the "black experience" than the other white guy. -_-

[felser]

Ironically, JB had nowhere near the influence on my (white, middle class, teen) consciousness at that time that Dr. King, Curtis Mayfield (especially "Choice of Colors", but also "Get On Up", and in the moral arena "People Get Ready" and "(If There's A Hell Below) We're All Gonna Go", and other songs) Marvin Gaye ("What's Going On", the song and the album), and Sly Stone ("Everyday People", "Everybody Is A Star", even "Dance To The Music") did, just to further muddy the argument/discussion. And you haven't fully experienced the dialogue until you've read Dave Marsh's writing on how Smokey Robinson broke him of his rascist upbringing through the humanity conveyed in " You Really Got A Hold On Me".

[Larry Kart]

we await yr lecture on Anatole Broyard w/baited breath.

You know about the cat that ate some cheese and then waited at the mouse hole with baited breath. For future reference, it's "bated breath" (i.e. "restrain one's breathing through anxiety or suspense"). Also see the word "abate" -- "lessen or diminish."

[7/4]

Still waitin' for Feldman, Conrad & Creeley stories

Feldman? Never met the guy.

Edited December 29, 2006 by 7/4

[Larry Kart]

Still waitin' for Feldman, Conrad & Creeley stories...

I have a few Feldman and Creeley stories of perhaps moderate interest (and mostly second-hand), but I'll never forget the time Conrad and I chewed over "Under Western Eyes."

[Larry Kart]

I saw Neal Cassady from across a moderately crowded room.

[Soulstation1]

anyone like

Talking Loud And Sayin' Nothing

[7/4]

7/4-- a friend of mine bought a rug from Feldman... took peyote with Nancarrow... wife swapped with Christian Wolff... slept with John & Merce (seperately & together)... bought pot for Elliott Carter... married Martinu's granddaughter... sat with Sorabji on his deathbed... is Georges Perec's literary executor & plays handball with Thomas Pynchon up in East Harlem to this day.

i perfer to remember the good times.

xxoo,

jj

Rug...nice!

I know someone who wrote a book about Nancarrow and knew him pretty well. Another had Conrad in his band. I've met Wolff, someone else I know performed with Merce quite a bit. I know La Monte Young, I recorded a raga concert with Michael Harrison and Terry Riley a few years ago and Phillip Glass sat in front of me, it was pretty cool to see Glass chatting with La Monte after the show. Someone else I know worked for John and Yoko as a go fer and another couple of people I know work performed with their kids.

Fortunately, I never had sex with any of them.

[Alexander]

But people aren't even arguing over the same thing! Clem is arguing about whether JB was one of the greatest black people of the 20th century, and Alexander is arguing about whether he's in the top 5 of all-time.

Nah, that's just the vehicle for the real argument, which is that they each think that the other one is an asshole.

Word!

[Alexander]

anyone like

Talking Loud And Sayin' Nothing

That's Clem's theme song!