Wynton Marsalis

[Guy Berger]

8 hours ago, Scott Dolan said:

Nah, not really. Sun Ship, First Meditations, and Godspelized all sound incredibly similar to each other (other than Ware's tone is harsher, more in line with Shepp, for example). And all three are phenomenal recordings. Actually, Sun Ship and First Meditations are my two favorite Jazz albums of all time. So it's not as though I'm casting Godspelized in a negative light. I think that's just the way some wish to see it. But claiming he's doing something entirely different than the 60's Avant Garde artists that influenced him is a stretch, IMO. That would be like saying Wynton Marsalis is doing something entirely different than the 40's-50's artists that influenced him. 

100% agreed with the gist of this

Edited October 23, 2017 by Guy Berger

[Scott Dolan]

9 hours ago, Pim said:

Haha I really disagree with you. Maybe we compare in a different way. Sure they do not differ in the way that, say Louis Armstrong and Roy Campbell do. After all Trane blows what people call free jazz and so does David S. Ware. So they build on the same concept. But the bands and the music itself is very different from each other. 

Trane uses more melodics and changes than Ware and his overblowing is different. Tyner is a completely different pianist than Shipp. Tyner is more based in the tradition, has got a different pulse and uses more changes and blues scales. Shipp uses more clusters, creating a wall of sound like Cecil Taylor or Bobby Few. I personally think Parker is more out there than Garrison, Garrison sounds more thoughtful using Arabic music as an inspiration, while Parker uses more expression. And Elvin Jones and Guillermo Brown could not differ more from each other. Elvin Jones keeps a tight rhythm and strong pulse, while Brown floats more on the music itself. So the influence is there but they are not two of the same kind.

For me the same as you: I regard both of the groups as fantastic jazz quartets. And Sun Ship is my all time favorite jazz album. 

 

Based upon everything you've noted here, I'm not sure we "really disagree" at all. 

You've noted varying degrees that essentially lead to the same thing. Which was the point I was getting at.

And again, I don't see anything wrong with that. They're all fantastic. 

Can we agree that tenor players like Evan Parker and Mats Gustafsson are different as far as the Coltrane/60's Free Jazz continuum is concerned? Because that was the point I was trying to get at. 

3 hours ago, Guy Berger said:

100% agreed with the gist of this

Yeah, but I'm obviously not getting my point across to others properly. 

That's on me. 

Edited October 23, 2017 by Scott Dolan

[Teasing the Korean]

As someone with a roomful of LPs, the vast majority of which are either jazz or jazz related, I have to wonder what would compel anyone to buy a Wynton Marsalis album.  I can imagine a pleasant passive experience, for example, hearing a Wynton Marsalis track on the jazz station while you're getting ready for bed and brushing your teeth and thinking, "That was OK," but I can't imagine actively pursuing his music.  

Edited October 24, 2017 by Teasing the Korean

[mandrill]

22 hours ago, Pim said:

 And Elvin Jones and Guillermo Brown could not differ more from each other. Elvin Jones keeps a tight rhythm and strong pulse, while Brown floats more on the music itself. So the influence is there but they are not two of the same kind.

 

Providing you're still describing Godspelized, the drummer there is Susie Ibarra- a very different drummer from Elvin Jones indeed, really more of a percussionist than a drummer. As other great examples of her work, I'd highly recommend her Radiance album- trio w/ Charles Burnham on violin and Cooper-Moore on piano, and "Peach Orchard" of William Parker's In Order to Survive quartet.

Edited October 24, 2017 by mandrill

[Scott Dolan]

The Peach Orchard is one of the best Free Jazz albums of the last two decades, IMO. Also with Cooper-Moore and Susie. But, I actually think Rob Brown steals the show on that one, oddly enough. 

[kh1958]

14 hours ago, Teasing the Korean said:

As someone with a roomful of LPs, the vast majority of which are either jazz or jazz related, I have to wonder what would compel anyone to buy a Wynton Marsalis album.  I can imagine a pleasant passive experience, for example, hearing a Wynton Marsalis track on the jazz station while you're getting ready for bed and brushing your teeth and thinking, "That was OK," but I can't imagine actively pursuing his music.  

You don't have to be very active; they are available cheap and in abundance; the used LP and CD bins are stuffed full of them.

[Pim]

2 hours ago, mandrill said:

Providing you're still describing Godspelized, the drummer there is Susie Ibarra- a very different drummer from Elvin Jones indeed, really more of a percussionist than a drummer. As other great examples of her work, I'd highly recommend her Radiance album- trio w/ Charles Burnham on violin and Cooper-Moore on piano, and "Peach Orchard" of William Parker's In Order to Survive quartet.

Shame on me. Indeed Susie Ibarra 

[Scott Dolan]

I think Brown's first album with Ware was Surrendered. An album many didn't seem to care for due to him taking over for Susie. I still think it's a fantastic album, personally. 

[clifford_thornton]

Though some people are loathe to do it or take it with a heaping grain of salt, I think that in some cases it's worth talking to musicians about their work. Ware is no longer with us but the people who played with him night after night, year after year are and they can speak to his singularity and where he's coming from. Certainly influence/tradition are there but I was responding more to language that these musicians were rehashing the music of the 60s, which is far from the case. I've drowned my ears in thousands of recordings of free music from 1958 forward for many years and have never seen Ware's music as a mere update of Coltrane's classic quartet or even, truly, Frank Wright or Albert Ayler (although Wright is closer). Hell, he's far from a favorite saxophonist of mine but I greatly respect his work.

[Guy Berger]

1 hour ago, clifford_thornton said:

Though some people are loathe to do it or take it with a heaping grain of salt, I think that in some cases it's worth talking to musicians about their work. Ware is no longer with us but the people who played with him night after night, year after year are and they can speak to his singularity and where he's coming from. Certainly influence/tradition are there but I was responding more to language that these musicians were rehashing the music of the 60s, which is far from the case. I've drowned my ears in thousands of recordings of free music from 1958 forward for many years and have never seen Ware's music as a mere update of Coltrane's classic quartet or even, truly, Frank Wright or Albert Ayler (although Wright is closer). Hell, he's far from a favorite saxophonist of mine but I greatly respect his work.

I agree they weren't rehashing, but there was a strong "retro" intention to Ware's music that it shares with Marsalis's music.

[Scott Dolan]

I greatly respect his work, too. A point that is obviously being lost or overlooked here. 

And no musician wants to be compared to another, nor do they usually compare any of their peers to others. So that's not exactly a telling metric. 

Are there differences? Of course there are! I've never said otherwise. 

You're saying there is a LOT of difference. And no, there isn't. There's a lot of difference between, say, Peter Evans and Freddie Hubbard. There's a lot of difference between Mats Gustafsson and Albert Ayler. There's a lot of difference between Paul Lytton and Elvin Jones. This is because what they are doing sounds absolutely nothing like 60's Free Jazz. 

 

1 hour ago, Guy Berger said:

I agree they weren't rehashing, but there was a strong "retro" intention to Ware's music that it shares with Marsalis's music.

Agreed. An emulation of those who most influenced him while also creating a voice of his own. And while that voice may be "singular", it's still built upon the same foundation that has been there since the 60's. There were lots of "singular" voices then, as well. But one can immediately identify 60's Free Jazz when they hear it. 

[Kevin Bresnahan]

The digital version of Downbeat magazine just hit my Inbox. Fan poll results for Hall Of Fame - Wynton Marsalis is in (1062 votes).

And Hank Mobley still only got 618 votes. Still bums me out.

[relyles]

[Justin V]

1 hour ago, Kevin Bresnahan said:

The digital version of Downbeat magazine just hit my Inbox. Fan poll results for Hall Of Fame - Wynton Marsalis is in (1062 votes).

And Hank Mobley still only got 618 votes. Still bums me out.

I knew when I saw the results last year that this might happen.  To be honest, it made me realize that I wasn't part of the magazine's target audience and I didn't renew my subscription.  This is a slap in the face for all of the living and dead masters who actually deserve the recognition.

[JSngry]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DownBeat#Hall_of_Fame

If it makes you feel any better (and it shouldn't), both Glenn Miller and Stan Kenton were voted in before Bird & Duke.

[Kevin Bresnahan]

1 hour ago, Justin V said:

I knew when I saw the results last year that this might happen.  To be honest, it made me realize that I wasn't part of the magazine's target audience and I didn't renew my subscription.  This is a slap in the face for all of the living and dead masters who actually deserve the recognition.

I realized I wasn't part of their target audience when they voted in Frank Zappa.

[Scott Dolan]

Muddy Waters?! Did I miss his Jazz recordings?

[Kevin Bresnahan]

2 hours ago, Scott Dolan said:

Muddy Waters?! Did I miss his Jazz recordings?

That's the veterans committee feelings on it. B. B. King got voted in right before him by the readers.

But the Blues Hall Of Fame has Jazz artists in it too. A total of one - Dinah Washington

Two if you count Cleanhead Vinson.

Edited October 24, 2017 by Kevin Bresnahan

[jlhoots]

In all (some) fairness DB has also done pieces on Tyshawn Sorey, Wadada Leo Smith, Roscoe Mitchell, etc.

It's not all bad IMO.

[Pim]

3 hours ago, Scott Dolan said:

Muddy Waters?! Did I miss his Jazz recordings?

Haha, it reminds me of our own North Sea Jazz Festival, where more than half of the performers are non jazz musicians. ‘Highlights’ of the last years were Kanye West and Snoop Dogg...

[mandrill]

4 hours ago, Kevin Bresnahan said:

The digital version of Downbeat magazine just hit my Inbox. Fan poll results for Hall Of Fame - Wynton Marsalis is in (1062 votes).

And Hank Mobley still only got 618 votes. Still bums me out.

Doesn't surprise me at the least. Wynton is much more of a household name than Hank. With all the talk about Mobley on this and few similar forums (there aren't many), he'd still fit the definition of a cult artist- which is really puzzling, providing accessibility of his music and the fact that (including Mosaic set) pretty much his whole catalog is still in print. I just got Mosaic last week and thoroughly enjoy it.

5 hours ago, Scott Dolan said:

The Peach Orchard is one of the best Free Jazz albums of the last two decades.

Wholeheartedly agree.

Edited October 24, 2017 by mandrill

[Scott Dolan]

See? I knew we'd eventually agree on something!  

And BTW, unless your name is nearly household like Miles, Wynton, Coltrane, Bird, Dizzy, etc... you're pretty much destined to be a "cult artist" in Jazz these days. It was likely a far different story back when Jazz was still a fairly popular style of music. But not anymore. Unless I'm misinterpreting what you mean by "cult artist". And knowing me, the likelihood of that is definitely greater than 50%...

Oh, and though I don't recall seeing you post here in the past, I must say I'm glad to see that you are more active recently. You bring a lot to the discussion. 

Edited October 24, 2017 by Scott Dolan

[gmonahan]

8 hours ago, Kevin Bresnahan said:

The digital version of Downbeat magazine just hit my Inbox. Fan poll results for Hall Of Fame - Wynton Marsalis is in (1062 votes).

And Hank Mobley still only got 618 votes. Still bums me out.

I don't necessarily blame the magazine for the Readers Poll. Now, the Critics Poll, yes. My guess is that's the only way Hank will get in. But given Wynton's visibility (as another poster suggested), it's hardly a surprise, and he is very active in pushing the music, albeit his own definition of it.

 

 

greg

[Larry Kart]

2 hours ago, gmonahan said:

I don't necessarily blame the magazine for the Readers Poll. Now, the Critics Poll, yes. My guess is that's the only way Hank will get in. But given Wynton's visibility (as another poster suggested), it's hardly a surprise, and he is very active in pushing the music, albeit his own definition of it.

 

 

greg

Just asking, as a former Down beat assistant editor (1969-70) who nonetheless has little residual fondness for the magazine, but how can you blame DB for either poll? Yes, it selects those who vote in the Critics Poll (doing so on the basis of who's out there and writing,) but it certainly doesn't know how those people are going to vote nor, of course, does it try to influence how they vote and couldn't do so even if it tried. Now if you're going to say that DB is responsible for shaping the overall climate of jazz and thus shaping how the critics vote, I'd say "nah" or "meh." 

[Scott Dolan]

Hey, Miles is in the Rock And Roll Hall Of Fame, so fuck 'em all, right?

It's like the Gold Glove in MLB. 

Whatever...