Wynton Marsalis

[Simon Weil]

Yeah. . . by "craft" I was thinking both of musical craft and also in the sense of "craftiness". . . .

OK. I get it.

Simon Weil

[chris olivarez]

In spite of the fact that he comes off as stuffy and pompous,personally and musically,I've got no real beef with Wynton. I like some of his stuff like the VV set especially since he seemed more personable in that setting. I have the Blue Notes but I haven't checked them out yet. Withy my backlog they are not terribly urgent listening at this time.

[felser]

With my backlog they are not terribly urgent listening at this time.

Our backlogs would make an interesting string some time. I have a huge one due to a couple of collections I bought.

[felser]

Two albums where he blows the roof off the sucker are "Citizen Tain" by drummer Jeff Watts and "Lush Life" by Joe Henderson. I've played both albums for people who claim not to like Wynton, and they are always very favorably impressed. They'll usually say something like, "I didn't know he could play like that."

I'd add his appearance on Chico Freeman's Destiny's Dance to that list. (Hard to imagine him keeping that kind of company these days)

When I interviewed Wynton in April, 1982, he said that "Destiny's Dance" was a very poor experience for him because Chico Freeman did not know the changes to his own songs, and that he would not be getting involved in any projects with musicians like that again.

What a douche bag.

He meant, I won't play anymore with musicians who have more talent and personality than I do.

Actually, to me, Freeman is a bigger waste of talent than even Wynton is (better pretension than ill-conceived, weird semi-sellout), though Wynton created the marketing atmosphere which destroyed Freeman. Some of Freeman's early playing, especially with Cecil McBee (under both Freeman's name and McBee's name), was truly marvelous.

[chris olivarez]

With my backlog they are not terribly urgent listening at this time.

Our backlogs would make an interesting string some time. I have a huge one due to a couple of collections I bought.

I feel your pain.

[felser]

With my backlog they are not terribly urgent listening at this time.

Our backlogs would make an interesting string some time. I have a huge one due to a couple of collections I bought.

I feel your pain.

I didn't say I could afford them. I just said I bought them. Hence the huge trade/sale list.

[chris olivarez]

With my backlog they are not terribly urgent listening at this time.

Our backlogs would make an interesting string some time. I have a huge one due to a couple of collections I bought.

I feel your pain.

I didn't say I could afford them. I just said I bought them. Hence the huge trade/sale list.

Bummer man. I've been in that boat so I can relate.Seriously.

[etherbored]

my own two cents, in prototypical beating-a-dead-horse timing;

correct me if i'm wrong, which to some i surely will be, but isn't wynton more along the lines of jazz for the masses [tm] who don't necessarily have a musical palette as well developed as most listeners who may be regular posters on a jazz newsgroup? as a self-described 'serious' listener (whatever that may be), i've never really taken the bait to take him seriously. i've seen him three or four times and at each gig one can easily tell the audience was comprised of at least 80-90% of folks who surely have, like, maybe a half dozen records in their "jazz collection". as if 'marsalis' was suburban for 'jazz for dummies'. nothing wrong with that, in my opinion (after all, i'd rather passive tastes for jazz or instrumental music be met by marsalis than contemporary jazz), so long as one doesn't confuse abridged cliff notes with an actual full length masterwork. for his own part, wynton himself has been shrewd in steering those with a curiosity towards artists and recordings that have stood the test of time. his playing and recordings, however, are another matter entirely. i find something inherently sterile about nearly each one of them; the rhythm section. they say they 'swing', but they damn sure swing with the proverbial stick... another problematic thing for me is, of course, the liner notes strewn across not just a title here or there, but his entire catalog. any self-respecting jazz fan worth his salt has a long and illustrious love for the art of the liner note. in my mind, this is one area where things have really gone wrong. reading stanley crouch's liner notes are akin to, well, let's just say something unpleasant.

so in the end, i can't simply say that i despise wynton or his camp (after all, i was charmed by some of 'the magic hour'). i do admire the scholastic bend he's taking towards the genre, although many (including an earlier post here, i believe) have criticized him for insitutionalizing jazz. hard not to disagree, but raising an awareness of the genre is not completely bad. maybe in summary, the way i feel is that if the man brings awareness, however flawed it is, towards jazz that i appreciate that on its own terms. is he for me? not. do i dig his records? primarily, nyet. is he to be publicly flogged and humiliated? maybe. just kidding. not in my opinion. i've yet, in my lifetime, to come across a person so ire-invoking, in his own special way, to hardened jazz listener as wynton marsalis. i see him as a fantastic mirror of sorts. each person reacts to him and his work in varying degrees.

carry on,

-e-

[Chuck Nessa]

Jazz is being killed by its listeners.

Yup, it's the other guy's fault.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

[BruceH]

If jazz really is "being killed" wouldn't the lack of listeners be the main problem?

[Elissa]

Was up at the Time Warner Ctr for lunch and walked past the JLC Marquee. Very lackluster indeed, the dates they have booked. Make the music seem about as interesting as a high school reunion. Made me wonder too how long his reign will last there, and if there's any chance that someone with something more say with and within the music will get a go at the helm. At the same time, perhaps an argument could be made that at least Ellington has greater popular name recognition now than he did 15 years ago?

[felser]

Ellington has greater popular name recognition now than he did 15 years ago?

Give Ken Burns most of the credit for that. Ellington and Armstrong were the two narrative threads which held his version of the story of jazz together, and the Ellington persona was so utterly compelling, you couldn't see it and help but want to know a lot more about Ellington the musician and Ellington the man. The series for what it did do was marvelous. Now if only Burns had also included the second half of the 20th century. How do you present 10 hours on the history of jazz and never mention Keith Jarrett once?

[Jim Alfredson]

Jazz is being killed by its listeners.

Yup, it's the other guy's fault.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

Well, Sangry's assessment is probably more fair (ie, that it is a team effort), but when I see post after post talking about the latest re-issue of 40+ year old recordings and posts asking whether they should go see live jazz (like the one asking whether to go see a group with Scott Kinsey in it... an amazing keyboardist doing new things with the music) it is just a bit disheartening.

It's taken 3 years for some people on here to get hip to Bill Heid and the guy is playing fairly traditional organ jazz.

I'm not trying to point fingers or single anybody out, but to me, the jazz of today should sound different than the jazz of the 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s, and 90s. Completely and radically different? Not necessarily. But what is the point of recording another standard for the 1000th time? Unless you're doing something to make it your own.

I'm not black, I wasn't born in 1928, I didn't grow up in 1930s Philadelphia, I didn't experience that era in time, so why should I sound like Jimmy Smith? Sure, I learned to play like him because he is the original master of the instrument and I love his music, but I sure hope that I'm developing my own voice and style on the instrument that comes from my experiences. And some listeners don't like that. They want to hear "The Sermon" for the 1000th time.

[Joe G]

Well, Sangry's assessment is probably more fair (ie, that it is a team effort), but when I see post after post talking about the latest re-issue of 40+ year old recordings and posts asking whether they should go see live jazz (like the one asking whether to go see a group with Scott Kinsey in it... an amazing keyboardist doing new things with the music) it is just a bit disheartening.

How many 60's-era CDs did you buy during that Concord sale again?

[Jim Alfredson]

A LOT! The better question is how many I've actually listened to. The answer is probably 10 out of the 60+.

[felser]

Well, Sangry's assessment is probably more fair (ie, that it is a team effort), but when I see post after post talking about the latest re-issue of 40+ year old recordings and posts asking whether they should go see live jazz (like the one asking whether to go see a group with Scott Kinsey in it... an amazing keyboardist doing new things with the music) it is just a bit disheartening.

It's taken 3 years for some people on here to get hip to Bill Heid and the guy is playing fairly traditional organ jazz.

I'm not trying to point fingers or single anybody out, but to me, the jazz of today should sound different than the jazz of the 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s, and 90s. Completely and radically different? Not necessarily. But what is the point of recording another standard for the 1000th time? Unless you're doing something to make it your own.

I'm not black, I wasn't born in 1928, I didn't grow up in 1930s Philadelphia, I didn't experience that era in time, so why should I sound like Jimmy Smith? Sure, I learned to play like him because he is the original master of the instrument and I love his music, but I sure hope that I'm developing my own voice and style on the instrument that comes from my experiences. And some listeners don't like that. They want to hear "The Sermon" for the 1000th time.

Jim,

How do we sort through it to know who in the new era is worth hearing, without buying a lot of $15-$20 CD's which sound like academic runthroughs or trip-hop wannabees? Are there trustworthy domestic labels the way Blue Note, Riverside, Prestige, and Contemporary were for our parents generation? I sure don't trust the "new" Blue Note or any of the majors, can't afford the imports. How do we avoid the hype of the "new breakthroughs" which foist the Modeski, Martin, and Wood's, etc. on us? How do we avoid the pure noise? What critical sources are trustworthy? I've bought a couple of large collections chock full of jazz promos from small labels and have spent the last several years working through them, finding dozens of new artists I like on labels like Origin and Sharp Nine, etc.

[Jim Alfredson]

The internets!

[felser]

The internets!

Give details for the technologically semi-challenged. Where do I start?

[clifford_thornton]

Being predisposed to the "free" thing or what have you, I think that labels like Eremite, Atavistic, Okka and CIMP, among the domestics, are doing a fine job. Imports: Ayler, Clean Feed, and Not Two seem to be at the top of the heap. That would be for the circles I run in.

Fresh Sound New Talent and Sunnyside seem to have the new straight-ahead market cornered, and well. I have not heard as broad a swath of their respective catalogs as I have some of the more free-leaning labels to make a judgement, but both seem to be on top of things.

Edit to say: there are TONS of independent labels out there. I just name-dropped a few. Additions welcome.

Edited December 23, 2006 by clifford_thornton

[JSngry]

Pi.

[felser]

Pi.

are squared? Say what? I'm also Greek challenged.

[jazzbo]

Wow! I now Greek too! And I thought I gave up after Latin!

http://www.pirecordings.com/

[JSngry]

Pi is on a roll. Check'em out.

[Lazaro Vega]

http://www.wyntonmarsalis.org/2006/12/01/w...e-penitentiary/

[JSngry]

http://www.wyntonmarsalis.org/2006/12/01/w...e-penitentiary/

Here's hoping that the music matches the rhetoric...