Wynton Marsalis

[Free For All]

I dunno, ask Chris Albertson?

That's what I thought when I first saw the thread, that it was a plan to lure Chris back.

[Jazz Kat]

Wynton Marsalis is one lucky son of a bitch!

[BruceH]

(Branford is a giant)

Oh really?

I mean, I like branford, always have, but "giant", in a music where "mega-giants" on even the same instrumet would have to include Coleman Hawkins, Lester Young, Sonny Rollins, John Coltrane, & Albert Ayler, as well as a whole big lot of people who in any other creative realm might well be contenders for mega-gianthood, but instead are "merely" regular giants in this one due to the mega-sized mega-ness of the aforementioned mega-giants, I have a hard time considering Branford as even a semi-giant.

Wow. Maybe the biggest mega-giants should be designated "giga-giants" to distinguish them from the merely mega and kilo-giants. (And of course, there's the rare tera-giant.)

[jazzbo]

Wynton Marsalis is one lucky son of a bitch!

I'll buy that. Luck. . . and craft.

[JSngry]

(Branford is a giant)

Oh really?

I mean, I like branford, always have, but "giant", in a music where "mega-giants" on even the same instrumet would have to include Coleman Hawkins, Lester Young, Sonny Rollins, John Coltrane, & Albert Ayler, as well as a whole big lot of people who in any other creative realm might well be contenders for mega-gianthood, but instead are "merely" regular giants in this one due to the mega-sized mega-ness of the aforementioned mega-giants, I have a hard time considering Branford as even a semi-giant.

Wow. Maybe the biggest mega-giants should be designated "giga-giants" to distinguish them from the merely mega and kilo-giants. (And of course, there's the rare tera-giant.)

[Hot Ptah]

Two albums where he blows the roof off the sucker are "Citizen Tain" by drummer Jeff Watts and "Lush Life" by Joe Henderson. I've played both albums for people who claim not to like Wynton, and they are always very favorably impressed. They'll usually say something like, "I didn't know he could play like that."

I'd add his appearance on Chico Freeman's Destiny's Dance to that list. (Hard to imagine him keeping that kind of company these days)

When I interviewed Wynton in April, 1982, he said that "Destiny's Dance" was a very poor experience for him because Chico Freeman did not know the changes to his own songs, and that he would not be getting involved in any projects with musicians like that again.

[sal]

Two albums where he blows the roof off the sucker are "Citizen Tain" by drummer Jeff Watts and "Lush Life" by Joe Henderson. I've played both albums for people who claim not to like Wynton, and they are always very favorably impressed. They'll usually say something like, "I didn't know he could play like that."

I'd add his appearance on Chico Freeman's Destiny's Dance to that list. (Hard to imagine him keeping that kind of company these days)

When I interviewed Wynton in April, 1982, he said that "Destiny's Dance" was a very poor experience for him because Chico Freeman did not know the changes to his own songs, and that he would not be getting involved in any projects with musicians like that again.

What a douche bag.

[rockefeller center]

*

(Branford is a giant)

thus sprach the liliputian! anyone honestly believing this is DISQUALIFIED from voicing any opinion that even rises to the level of bullshit. he doesn't even have giant technique, tho' he's "fine" (doesn't mean i like him).

NOR do i understand the goddamn effort somne of ya'll (everyone) puts into finding Winston's moments...

why not give Dave Ballou the same chance, Rob Blakeslee, or Paul Smoker.

there are how many Jonah Jones sides to dig if black is the color...

in this history of jazz tenor, Branford is a solid light-middleweight at best; in the history of jazz as a whole, he doesn't even rank except below some general line of also rans. As far as pop music is concerned.... hah-hah.

if Branford is a "giant," what the hell is Ben Webster, or Ike Quebec, or Big Toe Turner, or Bo Diddley, or Wilson Pickett, or George Clinton, or Marley Marl, or RZA?

Branford = Brinsley Schwartz... MAYBE. An OK genre dude in a weak time. Wake the fuck up. He's certainly no Joe Tex or Al Green, Percy France or Bobby Bland.

they call me C-... L-E-MM-Y.

signed,

c

Need oxygen?

[JSngry]

I think Clem was oxygenated perfectly well myself...

[Alexander]

*

(Branford is a giant)

thus sprach the liliputian! anyone honestly believing this is DISQUALIFIED from voicing any opinion that even rises to the level of bullshit. he doesn't even have giant technique, tho' he's "fine" (doesn't mean i like him).

if Branford is a "giant," what the hell is Ben Webster, or Ike Quebec, or Big Toe Turner, or Bo Diddley, or Wilson Pickett, or George Clinton, or Marley Marl, or RZA?

Um...also giants? I love all of the people you just mentioned. Have lots of stuff by them. What recent Branford do YOU own, Clem? Upon what do you base your judgement? Or are you just talking out of your ass (again)? Thought so.

The world only has enough room for people YOU like, Clem?

Branford = Brinsley Schwartz... MAYBE. An OK genre dude in a weak time. Wake the fuck up. He's certainly no Joe Tex or Al Green, Percy France or Bobby Bland.

First of all, I like Brinsley Schwartz, if only because Nick Lowe was with them. Secondly, I disagree whole-heartedly with your assessment of the current state of jazz as being "weak." I think history will regard the early years of the 21st century as one of the most fertile eras in jazz since the 50s. And not just because of Branford (and his last several albums have been OUTSTANDING). Have you been paying ANY attention to Greg Osby, Jason Moran, Dave Douglas, Uri Caine, Joe Lovano, etc.? All have been making one important album after another. I could go on and on about the exciting developments in jazz today. But, of course, my opinion doesn't count, because I disagree with YOU, Clem. How silly of me. I just go listen to anything YOU tell me to.

Edited December 18, 2006 by Alexander

[JSngry]

Have you been paying ANY attention to Greg Osby, Jason Moran, Dave Douglas, Uri Caine, Joe Lovano, etc.? All have been making one important album after another. I could go on and on about the exciting developments in jazz today.

Please do, because I have been paying attention to all of the above (including the edited-out-of-the-quote Branford, and I'm not excited. Entertained in varying degrees, yes, but excited? Nah, not even a little. And I live to be excited.

So what am I missing?

[John L]

Sounds more like a 90s jazz list to me than a 21st century list.

[Simon Weil]

Wynton Marsalis is one lucky son of a bitch!

I'll buy that. Luck. . . and craft.

And I'll buy that. Except that I think that by and large it's political craft. That is to say I think he's a Jazz politican - maybe the first true example of that - and it is to that that he owes his success. That is he has created, along with his minders, an image - of himself and Jazz, which the public has found attractive. But he hasn't really got a great deal beyond that, at least for the majority of people.

Looking at this thread, there are evidently a fair number of people to whom he is a really serious musician with a fascinating back-catalogue. But many more seem to be indifferent (some antagonistic). This only seems comprehensible to me if one asserts that his current top status in Jazz is down to extra-musical factors. Hence the idea of him as a Jazz politican, comparable to that of the Academic politician - good at climbing the greasy pole.

But I think people have seen through the image.

Simon Weil

Edited December 19, 2006 by Simon Weil

[marcello]

Have you been paying ANY attention to Greg Osby, Jason Moran, Dave Douglas, Uri Caine, Joe Lovano, etc.? All have been making one important album after another. I could go on and on about the exciting developments in jazz today.

Please do, because I have been paying attention to all of the above (including the edited-out-of-the-quote Branford, and I'm not excited. Entertained in varying degrees, yes, but excited? Nah, not even a little. And I live to be excited.

So what am I missing?

I can agree with you, Jim.

All of the above , for example, would be better off with some self editing to better make their musical points. Do they really need to make 70 minute recordings?

To each his own, but I dig a little more heart and soul myself.

[Jim Alfredson]

Jazz is being killed by its listeners.

[milestones20]

Anyone heard about his new band the Jazz Curators?

Didn't know he had one...heard he was having chop problems again.

[.:.impossible]

re: Jazz Curators

I sincerely hope that is a joke. I thought it was funny.

[JSngry]

Jazz is being killed by its listeners.

Oh, it's a team effort, belive me....

[Larry Kart]

Jazz is being killed by its listeners.

Interesting point. When and if you feel like it, please amplify.

[Rosco]

Wynton Marsalis is one lucky son of a bitch!

I'll buy that. Luck. . . and craft.

And I'll buy that. Except that I think that by and large it's political craft. That is to say I think he's a Jazz politican - maybe the first true example of that - and it is to that that he owes his success. That is he has created, along with his minders, an image - of himself and Jazz, which the public has found attractive. But he hasn't really got a great deal beyond that, at least for the majority of people.

Looking at this thread, there are evidently a fair number of people to whom he is a really serious musician with a fascinating back-catalogue. But many more seem to be indifferent (some antagonistic). This only seems comprehensible to me if one asserts that his current top status in Jazz is down to extra-musical factors. Hence the idea of him as a Jazz politican, comparable to that of the Academic politician - good at climbing the greasy pole.

But I think people have seen through the image.

Simon Weil

I'd say that was right, although not exactly without precedent. It's easy to forget (and some would rather not even acknowledge) that jazz is part of the business we call 'show'. There have been a fair few jazz musicians whose high profile has been enhanced by, if not politics, a certain amonut of spin doctoring. Ellington, Dizzy, Miles... all extremely savvy at building up a marketable persona. The difference being that all of them had a hefty amount of genius to back it up. Wynton is no genius.

It's been interesting that Wynton's reputation (at least as a recording artist) has taken a slide since doing the Ken Burns docu. If the intention of the show was to place Marsalis' name- as has always seemed to be his ambition- front and center of some mythical jazz renaissance it seems to have had the opposite effect.

Edited December 19, 2006 by Rosco

[milestones20]

re: Jazz Curators

I sincerely hope that is a joke. I thought it was funny.

Let's hope you're right...

[kh1958]

Two albums where he blows the roof off the sucker are "Citizen Tain" by drummer Jeff Watts and "Lush Life" by Joe Henderson. I've played both albums for people who claim not to like Wynton, and they are always very favorably impressed. They'll usually say something like, "I didn't know he could play like that."

I'd add his appearance on Chico Freeman's Destiny's Dance to that list. (Hard to imagine him keeping that kind of company these days)

When I interviewed Wynton in April, 1982, he said that "Destiny's Dance" was a very poor experience for him because Chico Freeman did not know the changes to his own songs, and that he would not be getting involved in any projects with musicians like that again.

What a douche bag.

He meant, I won't play anymore with musicians who have more talent and personality than I do.

[clifford_thornton]

I don't have much to add here; the Wynton debates have always felt a little out of my jurisdiction (I probably should care - but it's hard).

V'mark and Zorn are semi-respectable organizers in their own right, and I think far more where it matters than what Wynton's doing (i.e., punk/indie clubs vs. Lincoln Center). But of course Wynton's constituents have the dough, so I guess that explains that. And yeah, KV and JZ are overrecorded. I just sift.

[jazzbo]

Wynton Marsalis is one lucky son of a bitch!

I'll buy that. Luck. . . and craft.

And I'll buy that. Except that I think that by and large it's political craft. That is to say I think he's a Jazz politican - maybe the first true example of that - and it is to that that he owes his success. That is he has created, along with his minders, an image - of himself and Jazz, which the public has found attractive. But he hasn't really got a great deal beyond that, at least for the majority of people.

Looking at this thread, there are evidently a fair number of people to whom he is a really serious musician with a fascinating back-catalogue. But many more seem to be indifferent (some antagonistic). This only seems comprehensible to me if one asserts that his current top status in Jazz is down to extra-musical factors. Hence the idea of him as a Jazz politican, comparable to that of the Academic politician - good at climbing the greasy pole.

But I think people have seen through the image.

Simon Weil

I'd say that was right, although not exactly without precedent. It's easy to forget (and some would rather not even acknowledge) that jazz is part of the business we call 'show'. There have been a fair few jazz musicians whose high profile has been enhanced by, if not politics, a certain amonut of spin doctoring. Ellington, Dizzy, Miles... all extremely savvy at building up a marketable persona. The difference being that all of them had a hefty amount of genius to back it up. Wynton is no genius.

It's been interesting that Wynton's reputation (at least as a recording artist) has taken a slide since doing the Ken Burns docu. If the intention of the show was to place Marsalis' name- as has always seemed to be his ambition- front and center of some mythical jazz renaissance it seems to have had the opposite effect.

Yeah. . . by "craft" I was thinking both of musical craft and also in the sense of "craftiness". . . .

[Robert J]

I just got an email from him.