Wynton Marsalis

[Scott Dolan]

Exactly. 

It’s using minutia to differentiate things which in a larger context aren’t much different at all. Hence: it’s still fucking Merlot. 

The thing that blows me away is that anyone would take offense to this, or see it as a form of degredation. 

Just because an artist has found their own voice doesn’t mean they’ve transcended the genre they call home. 

My apologies, but anyone that can listen to First Mediatations and Godspelized and proclaim, “huge difference” is just bullshitting themselves. 

 

Edited November 2, 2017 by Scott Dolan

[Steve Reynolds]

I used to think there was no way Fall 72 Grateful Dead was much different than Spring 73 Dead even though the band had the same 6 members and the set lists were similar. Until I listened more closely over the years, that is.

In fact I used to think the whole idea that Dead Heads liked or thought of eras by time frames as distinct like Fall 71 vs Spring 72 or even supposed vast differences between Spring 77 & Fall 78 was thoroughly insane. 

Sounded crazy.

Once I’ve immersed myself in it, I’ve found it all to be true. Real changes from even April 78 to July 78. Forget about the difference between 1970 & 1972.

same applies to improvised music - I understand the merlot analogy but many of these “free jazz” bands don’t even have saxophones. Look up Jaimie Branch’s Fly or Die. You wouldn’t even call it free jazz. Or Harris Eisenstadt’s nonet I saw earlier this year with Instrumentation and an approach far from anything thought of as free jazz/free music.

[Scott Dolan]

Hahaha...

I've nothing more to say than thank you! 

[mandrill]

22 hours ago, Scott Dolan said:

 

UNLESS! You’re talking hybrids. Like Mary Halvorsen’s blend of European Improvisation with a more traditional Free Jazz, and even Garage Rock approach. 

BUT! David S. Ware plays no hybridized forms. None. 

At the very least there are some Asian influences in David S. Ware music (not that he pioneered that, mind you). Yes, one may argue that he still essentially plays that "cosmic jazz" of late Coltrane & Sanders, but he's thoroughly his own man in that idiom. He's not your "same fucking Merlot". For example, the way he dis- and re-assembles the standards on his DIW albums is unique and beautiful.

I don't find Mary Halvorsen "hybridization" all that interesting- the whole of it seems to me less that the parts it's assembled from. As for blending free jazz with garage rock, I'll take Raoul Björkenheim over Mary H.

17 hours ago, Scott Dolan said:

Exactly. 

It’s using minutia to differentiate things which in a larger context aren’t much different at all. Hence: it’s still fucking Merlot. 

The thing that blows me away is that anyone would take offense to this, or see it as a form of degredation. 

Just because an artist has found their own voice doesn’t mean they’ve transcended the genre they call home. 

My apologies, but anyone that can listen to First Mediatations and Godspelized and proclaim, “huge difference” is just bullshitting themselves. 

 

This discussion got run in circles, kicking clouds of dust, so it's hard to see anymore where it's started. "Huge difference" between those two albums? Maybe not, depending on one's scope of "huge". But the later is definitely an advancement on the former, and, for me, it's more interesting listening experience.

Edited November 2, 2017 by mandrill

[Scott Dolan]

To be honest, I don't hear any advancement, only variations. 

Great album. Really great album. But I hear no new territory being explored. 

And once more, I see absolutely nothing wrong with that. 

[mandrill]

We all hear different things. Some are able to hear big advancement in Grateful Dead sound vintage of April 78 vs July 78, while most of that band output totally bores me (though I can agree that Workingman Dead/American Beauty is good music to drive by).

Edited November 2, 2017 by mandrill

[Guy Berger]

2 hours ago, Scott Dolan said:

To be honest, I don't hear any advancement, only variations. 

Great album. Really great album. But I hear no new territory being explored. 

And once more, I see absolutely nothing wrong with that. 

Zoom in on a map and there are always new, interesting geographical details to be discovered, but you probably won't find new continents

[Scott Dolan]

1 hour ago, mandrill said:

We all hear different things. Some are able to hear big advancement in Grateful Dead sound vintage of April 78 vs July 78, while most of that band output totally bores me (though I can agree that Workingman Dead/American Beauty is good music to drive by).

But the problem with that is that it's still The Grateful Dead. It's not like you're going to hear July '78 and think, "I have no idea who this is!" 

1 hour ago, Guy Berger said:

Zoom in on a map and there are always new, interesting geographical details to be discovered, but you probably won't find new continents

Absolutely! And I've never tried to say otherwise. 

[mandrill]

2 hours ago, Scott Dolan said:

Absolutely! And I've never tried to say otherwise. 

In this case, what (who) are those continents of Planet Jazz? And when, in your opinion, did the last tectonic movement take place?

[Scott Dolan]

Fusion.

[clifford_thornton]

Just to bring this full circle, I got quite a look at old Wynston on the cover of Downbeat (which arrived in my mailbox today. Somehow I get a free subscription).

[mandrill]

9 hours ago, clifford_thornton said:

Just to bring this full circle, I got quite a look at old Wynston on the cover of Downbeat (which arrived in my mailbox today. Somehow I get a free subscription).

I heard ole Wynston [sic] is busy building the Cathedral.

[Rabshakeh]

WM episode coming up on Marc Maron's WTF podcast tomorrow, apparently. 

I'm keen to hear who out-talks who.

(Edit: "Keen" is perhaps too strong a word...)

Edited October 7, 2020 by Rabshakeh

[Rabshakeh]

Wynton Marsalis – Wynton Marsalis Plays Louis Armstrong's Hot Fives And Hot Sevens (Blue Engine, 2023)

Marsalis' new record, just released on a tiny label, to no excitement whatsoever. 

This is competent unswinging museum-re-enactment quality dixieland. It is not even close to the basic standards of post-war Dixieland Armstrong worship.

I find it really absorbing just how extreme Marsalis' fall from relevance has been. It feels like there's no failure too embarrassing. How can a figure like Marsalis have failed to become a respected elder statesman putting out records that still generate a buzz just because of his name? Those of his peers who have survived like Kenny Garrett, Terence Blanchard or James Carter (and in retrospect it does seem like an ill-starred cohort) have fallen into that role nicely. Whereas Marsalis is doing... this. To complete indifference.

On the other hand, the amount of time he's spent on early jazz re-enactment recently has given him a new smudgy trumpet tone that I do like. I enjoyed his playing on that Farnsworth record last year. That was leagues better than this.

Edit: As has been pointed out below, this is not a new record, but is actually an archival JATLC release from 2006, on its own label.

Edited August 11, 2023 by Rabshakeh

[Kevin Bresnahan]

4 hours ago, Rabshakeh said:

Wynton Marsalis – Wynton Marsalis Plays Louis Armstrong's Hot Fives And Hot Sevens (Blue Engine, 2023)

Marsalis' new record, just released on a tiny label, to no excitement whatsoever. 

This is competent unswinging museum-re-enactment quality dixieland. It is not even close to the basic standards of post-war Dixieland Armstrong worship.

I find it really absorbing just how extreme Marsalis' fall from relevance has been. It feels like there's no failure too embarrassing. How can a figure like Marsalis have failed to become a respected elder statesman putting out records that still generate a buzz just because of his name? Those of his peers who have survived like Kenny Garrett, Terence Blanchard or James Carter (and in retrospect it does seem like an ill-starred cohort) have fallen into that role nicely. Whereas Marsalis is doing... this. To complete indifference.

On the other hand, the amount of time he's spent on early jazz re-enactment recently has given him a new smudgy trumpet tone that I do like. I enjoyed his playing on that Farnsworth record last year. That was leagues better than this.

Love how you ignore that this "tiny label" is Jazz At Lincoln Center's own label that has released JALC recordings since 2015 or that this is not even a new recording. It was recorded in 2006. So this is the Jazz At Lincoln Center releasing what they feel is a recording they made that they felt would be enjoyed by JALC fans. Why this one? You'll have to ask them. My guess is that there was strong demand for it.

FWIW, this same label put out a JALC's tribute to Wayne Shorter, featuring Wayne himself, back in 2020 to decent reviews. Did that meet your sniff test for "early jazz re-enactment"?

[Rooster_Ties]

5 hours ago, Rabshakeh said:

…time spent on early jazz re-enactment…

At this point, we might at well call it what it is: jazz-LARPing — especially something like remaking the Hot 5’s & 7’s.

[Rabshakeh]

49 minutes ago, bresna said:

Love how you ignore that this "tiny label" is Jazz At Lincoln Center's own label that has released JALC recordings since 2015 or that this is not even a new recording. It was recorded in 2006. So this is the Jazz At Lincoln Center releasing what they feel is a recording they made that they felt would be enjoyed by JALC fans. Why this one? You'll have to ask them. My guess is that there was strong demand for it.

FWIW, this same label put out a JALC's tribute to Wayne Shorter, featuring Wayne himself, back in 2020 to decent reviews. Did that meet your sniff test for "early jazz re-enactment"?

Okay. I didn't know the label. My apologies. I also only just realized that the record was archival and had been recorded in 2006. 

The fact remains, the Louis Armstrong record is not a good record. I am not a Marsalis fan or a Marsalis hater, but it is clearly below his level, and below the level of most dixieland since the second world war. It's an embarrassing record that I would not want associated with my own name. I am surprised that is what Marsalis is doing because, like it or not, he is a giant of the jazz world.

49 minutes ago, bresna said:

FWIW, this same label put out a JALC's tribute to Wayne Shorter, featuring Wayne himself, back in 2020 to decent reviews. Did that meet your sniff test for "early jazz re-enactment"?

I have not heard of this record. Is it good? Presumably this is not going to be a bad reenactment of a very historical form of jazz. I don't know what the relevance is to the Louis Armstrong record, other than that it is Wynton and JATLC.

Edited August 11, 2023 by Rabshakeh

[Teasing the Korean]

5 minutes ago, Rabshakeh said:

The fact remains, the Louis Armstrong record is not a good record. I am not a Marsalis fan or a Marsalis hater, but it is clearly below his level, and below the level of most dixieland since the second world war. It's an embarrassing record that I would not want associated with my own name. I am surprised that is what Marsalis is doing because, like it or not, he is a giant of the jazz world.

I struggle to imagine who the audience is for a record like this.  Hot 5/Hot 7 completists?  Wynton completists?  People not into jazz who see Wynton on a PBS pledge drive?  

[Rabshakeh]

10 minutes ago, Teasing the Korean said:

I struggle to imagine who the audience is for a record like this.  Hot 5/Hot 7 completists?  Wynton completists?  People not into jazz who see Wynton on a PBS pledge drive?  

Exactly. One wonders why someone like Marsalis would work on something like this? Is it just a touring live show for well meaning teachers to bring primary school kids to?

There's a lot of talent on the record. Wycliffe Gordon is a hell of a trombone player. Marsalis sounds great.

But it's a complete nothing record.

Edited August 11, 2023 by Rabshakeh

[jlhoots]

Isaiah J. Thompson: The Power Of The Spirit on Blue Engine is a pretty good CD IMO.

[John L]

The album was taken from a live show at Lincoln Center to celebrate 80 years since the Hot 5s and 7s. The music is well played, and includes a few interesting new touches on the originals.  I find it enjoyable to listen to.  No, it does not shake any new mountains.  But that was not the goal.   

Edited August 11, 2023 by John L

[Rabshakeh]

Clearly some people did like the record, and it has been pointed out that this is really an archival release by the JATLC, not Marsalis' big new release. So I apologise.

I still think that Marsalis has sort of wrecked his career with this stuff.

11 minutes ago, jlhoots said:

Isaiah J. Thompson: The Power Of The Spirit on Blue Engine is a pretty good CD IMO.

I'll check that out. I posted a whole ago asking for recommendations of the JATLC musicians outside of the JATLC context. As I say upthread, they're talented players who I think are smothered by this stuff.

[felser]

What has always struck me about Wynton's fall from grace is how self-inflicted it was through his own hubris.  I still greatly enjoy his work with Blakey and I do like some early albums like the live set from Blues Alley.  And his approach seems to have influenced and done in Terence Blanchard, who, despite overall better results through the decades, has often fallen into the same pretentious traps.

[Rabshakeh]

An artist has to go somewhere, and I can understand why Marsalis would not want to be restricted to small group bop spliced with occasional classical records.

I think that he has to some extent been trapped into this by the adulation and institutional prestige he received: (1) He received a lot of awards for those early extended works that he did in the 90s, which I think were probably undeserved, but which seem to have caused him to abandon something he could do well (writing for small group bop) and instead spend the rest of his career putting out (in my view) terrible extended works. (2) His role in the JATLC has placed him at the centre of what seems to me to be a pedagogical feedback loop, so that he thinks that a performance they successfully pastiches a historical style is sufficient. 

These are my own views, and I accept that there must be people out there who like this stuff. Otherwise he would not have won that Pulitzer.

Possibly the Armstrong stuff does represent a bit of a route out. I don't get the sense that he had really absorbed this much Armstrong until now and, as I have said upthread, I think that it has been good for his playing. His trumpet sound is more interesting than ever, and if he could put that in a better context I think people would be interested to hear it again.

[Larry Kart]

 

That Pulitzer win was a put-up job (i.e. the fix was in). I have chapter and verse on that.