Ice Cream And Suckers (Mercury 1963)

[JSngry]

Bought this back in the early '70s, Treasure Cuty cutout bin, $0.33 1/3 (AKA 3/$1.00). It's a VA collection of South African township & jive, and contains the original recording of what Hugh Masakela would later steal for "Grazin' In The Grass". Raw, ragged, and delightful.

Just wondering if now, 40+ years later, this album has accuired any sort of a reputation as being among, if not the, first to present such music to America?

Why am I wondering? Hell if I know.

[BeBop]

You looking to start something?

[JSngry]

Like what?

Or is that a "Mr. Bull" reference?

[JSngry]

You looking to start something?

Yeah, a thread about an album.

(Better-late-than-never response )

[rostasi]

Yeah, it's one of those "100 Records That Set the World On Fire"

"Various Artists Ice Cream And Suckers (Mercury 1963)

At the same time that more respectable South African musicians like Dollar Brand, Miriam Makeba, and The Blue Notes were thinking about making tracks to Europe, the rural township musicians on Ice Cream And Suckers watched their music leap the ocean to become one of the first exports to America. . . if they were informed at all. Using Western instruments - harmonicas, chunky saxophone, lots of guitar - the patterns of the highlife dancehall were underlined in funky bass and drawn above with cascading harmonies. In this collection of singles, each group has a strong presence that comes from the hybrid of soul and mbube. The place where cultures collide can form greatness, like the birth of rocksteady in Jamaica, but a clash is not easy when you're trapped in it. When "Mr Bull" (Freddie Gumbi) yelled "You bloody bastard, get out of my yard!" over the goofy sound effects of a distressed steer, you wonder what he really meant. An almost painfully happy record, Ice Cream And Suckers yields a fascinating and suspiciously sunny picture in a brutal period of history."

[JSngry]

That's from The Wire, right? How much "currency" does that list have?

[rostasi]

Yup! It's kinda from the "addendum" to the originally conceived list -

too much of a good thing...

You can decide for yourself (as "best of's" go, you understand):

the extras

The first 100 (or so)

[JSngry]

I was just wondering if this album's become some sort of "underground classic" among fans of this type thing or not. Seems like a really unusual thing to release in America in 1963, but damned if it's not still a treat to listen to.

[rostasi]

I don't think it comes up that often. MG might have a different perspective.

I didn't begin listening until The Promise of a Future (Masekela)

and/or probably Miram Makeba was played at home too.

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

This passed me by. I only had a couple of African singles in '63 - one by Miriam Makeba, the other by a white South African ("Talkin' Joburg blues") whose name I've forgotten - perhaps one or two others, which I've entirely forgotten now. Oh, "Tom Hark", of course.

This looks interesting - the early development of Mbaqanga - if one is interested in Mbaqanga. I suppose I should be, but most of that stuff I've got is from the jazz side - Ibrahim, Masekela, Pukwana, Rachabane, Coetzee, Jansen, Mpale - can't listen to EVERYTHING. (Though I'd like to.)

MG

[BeBop]

Like what?

Or is that a "Mr. Bull" reference?

Just wondering if you're trying to give the album 'a reputation'. OT, but I can remeber kids in my high school trying to give themselves reputations.

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

Yup! It's kinda from the "addendum" to the originally conceived list -

too much of a good thing...

You can decide for yourself (as "best of's" go, you understand):

the extras

The first 100 (or so)

This list looks very English-oriented. The Ram John Holder write up is a dead giveaway. Nobody who wasn't around on that scene in 1960-62, and I had a bit to do with making that market, would know that Ealing and Richmod were the centre of British Blues developments. This is probably written by some guy I used to know back then.

MG

[JSngry]

Just wondering if you're trying to give the album 'a reputation'. OT, but I can remeber kids in my high school trying to give themselves reputations.

Yeah, I'm trying to give an album that only a few people have heard of a reputation so I can put it up on eBay, sell it for $350,000.00 and the use that money to buy the Velvet Underground acetate. Then I'm going to resell that one and buy me a Honus Wagner card and burn it on national TV. Then I'll have a reputation, and I can go back to my high school reunion and finally have the respect I deserve.

[JSngry]

This passed me by. I only had a couple of African singles in '63 - one by Miriam Makeba, the other by a white South African ("Talkin' Joburg blues") whose name I've forgotten - perhaps one or two others, which I've entirely forgotten now. Oh, "Tom Hark", of course.

Ok, that's what I was thinking, that this was a really odd choice for an album at that time. MG, what was "in the air" in '63 that might have made somebody think that there was a market for this type stuff? Mercury being a part of Phillips and all by then, and this being on a Wire list, I'm thinking that maybe the album was first & foremost aimed at the Euro-market, and the US release was secondary.

No production/coordination credits, but the artists included areSoweto Stokvel Septette, Mr. Dube, Jabulani Quads, S.D.V. Swing Band, Cassius the Great,, T.V. Sisters, & Mr. Bull (it's he who made the record that Masakela later "appropriated"). Any of those names ring a bell, MG?

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

This passed me by. I only had a couple of African singles in '63 - one by Miriam Makeba, the other by a white South African ("Talkin' Joburg blues") whose name I've forgotten - perhaps one or two others, which I've entirely forgotten now. Oh, "Tom Hark", of course.

Ok, that's what I was thinking, that this was a really odd choice for an album at that time. MG, what was "in the air" in '63 that might have made somebody think that there was a market for this type stuff? Mercury being a part of Phillips and all by then, and this being on a Wire list, I'm thinking that maybe the album was first & foremost aimed at the Euro-market, and the US release was secondary.

No production/coordination credits, but the artists included areSoweto Stokvel Septette, Mr. Dube, Jabulani Quads, S.D.V. Swing Band, Cassius the Great,, T.V. Sisters, & Mr. Bull (it's he who made the record that Masakela later "appropriated"). Any of those names ring a bell, MG?

Never heard of any of those names, Jim. This is very early Mbaqanga.

What was around in Britain was Miriam Makeba. "The click song"/"Mbube" (Wimoweh) came out in '63, and I bought it then. So I was definitely in the market for African music, but there wasn't much that I saw. But the Makeba sort of material was definitely aimed by the British licensees at the white market in Britain, as were the few Kwela records that had come out in the years since 1957 and "Tom Hark".

This album seems to have been aimed at the black market; if it ever came out in Britain, that would be a specifically African market. The West Indians were deep into early Ska and Calypso and well provided for by Melodisc records. I can't see a rival trying to break into that market with African music. What was going on that was relevant to the African population of London was early Georgie Fame; he had at least one African drummer (ie not playing traps) in his band in 1962/3. Fame was doing R&B but, on the few occasions I went to his gigs, there were loads of Africans in the audience.

But I'm not sure it ever did come out here. If it had done, I feel sure I would have seen it, if not then, at some time. Sterns opened a separate counter (it was a classical specialist) to deal in second hand records from Africa, in the fifties I think. People would come off ships and flog their 78s and stuff; in a way, like the informal distribution of R&B records in America in the '40s. There appears to have been a good market for it, but wholly among the African population; at least in those days. I didn't know about the shop in those days (more's the pity). My friends and I had a "patch", which was a slice of West London north of the river around to a line from the West End to Harrow - about a sixth. Sterns wasn't in that patch.

But when I did eventually get connected to Sterns, they were still doing a big business in second hand material. I think I'd have recognised that title, had I seen it, when I was looking through their LPs.

I think it really may have been a US only issue. My memory doesn't agree with yours; I don't think Philips bought Mercury until 1964. Until that time, EMI was the licensee for Mercury over here. I don't think EMI was as interested in Africa as UK Decca (which was Gallo's licensee, had its own West African subsidiary and did issue some West African LPs in Britain as imports a couple of years later) in those days. EMI's prime interest in Africa was flogging EMI records over there (Cliff Richard was very big in SA) not in recording Africans for international release.

So I have a definite feeling (no evidence, you note) that this compilation was intended for US consumption. I guess that this must have been aimed at the African-American market not, the African, American market. But I don't know. Were there many Africans living in America in those days? It seems hard to imagine an African leaving Apartheid to go and settle for the middle of the Civil Rights struggle. But I don't know.

Can you tell from the sleeve which South African company recorded the material? That would give some pointer as to how it got where it got and, perhaps therefore, why.

MG

[JSngry]

Thanks MG, that's the kind of deep background I was looking for.

Your memory of Phillips/Mercury is no doubt accurate.

I was born in 1955, so my first-hand memory of 1963 is limited to that of an 8 year old. But I've done enough "homework" to somewhat safely say that I'm not aware of a noticeable market for African popular music in the US then, other than (probably) that of a few highly urbanized areas. There was no "fad" or even a sub-fad that I'm aware of. Makeba was beginning to get released (on RCA, iirc), but her only even semi-crossover success was w/"Pata Pata", and that was, I think, 1967 or 68.

The only possible "connecting" data on the album is that all songs were published by Felsted Publishing.

Another "odd" thing is that the album specifically uses the term "South African Soul". Now, "soul" as a marketing term in "crossover" popular music didn't really come into play over here until a few years later, 65-66. So maybe this was intended to be aimed at an African-American market. Maybe they were aiming at the Olantunji market, but this is so different from that...

I don't know, the whole thing just seems sort of out of left field, if you know what I mean.

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

The only possible "connecting" data on the album is that all songs were published by Felsted Publishing.

Very odd - Felsted was connected with London, UK Decca's US subsidiary. It would be expected for a release like this to have the "in-house" publisher used.

Another "odd" thing is that the album specifically uses the term "South African Soul". Now, "soul" as a marketing term in "crossover" popular music didn't really come into play over here until a few years later, 65-66. So maybe this was intended to be aimed at an African-American market.

The earliest use of the term "Soul" as marketing that I can recollect quickly would have been 1964. "Otis Redding sings Soul ballads"; James Brown's "Grits & soul". The Impression's "It's all right" also 1964 uses the term soul - "you've got soul, and everybody knows, that it's all right".

No, that's not right. There was a ref in a much earlier Ray Charles sleeve note. I'll try to dig it up later.

MG

[JSngry]

Oh, I know that the word was being used before then. I'm referring to its use as a "crossover" marketing term. I don't recall the term being pushed to white, rockish kids over hear until later in the 1960s, around the time that Otis, Aretha, & JB began to make real penetration into that market, which actually would have been around 67 or so, although Stax in general began really getting big a year or two earlier. I can't count Motown, because although they did even have a label called "Soul", that wasn't the real focus of thier whole trip.

[rostasi]

the other by a white South African ("Talkin' Joburg blues") whose name I've forgotten

Jeremy Taylor did the Joburg Talkin' Blues with Ag Pleez Daddy on a 7". There's an EP too that adds a couple of extras.

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

the other by a white South African ("Talkin' Joburg blues") whose name I've forgotten

Jeremy Taylor did the Joburg Talkin' Blues with Ag Pleez Daddy on a 7". There's an EP too that adds a couple of extras.

That's the one.

"Ag please Daddy, won't you take us to the drive-in

All six seven of us, eight nine ten."

The chorus was "Pepsi Calla, Ginger Beer and Canada Droi".

Funny the things you remember.

MG

[JSngry]

 

[duaneiac]

I would take exception to the line, what Hugh Masakela would later steal for "Grazin' In The Grass".  I see no evidence that he "stole" anything.  The song is always credited to Philmon Hou.  I don't know who that is/was.  In the liner notes to  his The Best of CD, Mr. Masekela says that the song was a last minute addition to the Promise of A Future album because "Russ Regan, who was then head of Universal Records, felt the album was not long enough."

[JSngry]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grazing_in_the_Grass

 

Quote

Grazing in the Grass" was inspired by an earlier Masekela recording, "Mr. Bull No. 5". Hou, an actor and singer, came up with the melody while the backing track was already being recorded. The session was held at

Gold Star Studios

in Hollywood

^.

Ok - it was "Mr. Bull No 4" and that was not an "original Masakela recording" in any form that I know of.

D. Thekwane probably{?} = David Thekwane: http://www.discogs.com/artist/807713-David-Thekwane

 

The original Mr Bull record begins with a wonderful sound effect recording of a bull mooing with a cowbell rattling around its neck (shades of the cowbell that opens GITG!) and somebody saying over it :Get out of my yard you bloody bastard, I am Mister Bull!"

Also, no trumpet on this record, just alto, guitars, bass, and drums. I seriously doubt that Masakela was anywhere in the room. He'd left the country by then.

As for Hou's contribution to the melody, GITG does have a secondary melody that does not exist on the Mr. Bull record, and the main GITG melody is a more smoothed-out version of the Mr. Bull record, just as the GITG backing track is a significantly more "sophisticated" Verizon of that done by Mr. Bull.

They're in now way the same type record, but there's no way to get around them being the same rough song.

"Stolen" might be an indelicate description, so let's say "based on" or "strongly inspired by" instead.

 

 

[JSngry]