Pablo Records

[wolff]

Just got done listening to Joe Pass/Virtuoso #3. I find his playing on this LP amazing.

I've been collecting Pable LP's off and on for years. I get them for their good jazz and great sound/fidelity, like the Pass album I mentioned. Some of the best bass, horns and guitar I've ever heard in my home came off these LP's. Time was you could not give Pablo's away, but now the word is out.

My favorite Pablo cut of all time is 'Morning Glory" from Joe Turner's/ Life Ain't Easy. Sound wise, this is best I've ever heard and I've heard just about every great sounding jazz LP pressed. The only one that comes close is Klemmer's intro on Arabesque from Straight from The Heart(Nautilus Direct to Disc).

[Soul Stream]

one thing that always bothered me and still does is Pablo's dry studio sound. Maybe it was meant for a "live" in your face kind of feel, I also heard that Norman had low production values, but the sound on other dry recordings doesn't bug me nearly as much as these.

Uggh. I'm with you on the "Pablo" sound. To me, it represents the worst of the 70's and 80's dry, no-room-sound ugliness that plagued jazz in those eras.

I'm no Pablo expert. Only have a few Lps and have heard not a more than 20 or so ever. But I agree with the conservative label. Plus some of the stuff I've heard is just plain sloppy or careless...uninspired maybe is a better description. Sure, these guys are legends, and I'm glad these recordings DO exist as this is a time where not a lot of this sort of material was being recorded elsewhere. But anything short of a completist or curious individual seems better served by earlier work of almost all of these artists.

If any of these recordings were better aurally, I might be more of a fan than I am. But Paleeeeaaase.

[wolff]

Off the top of my head, 88 Basie Street, Satch and Josh, Basie Big Band, Duke's Big Four and This One's For Blatton are on a few "Best Sounding' lists and have been given the audiophile treatment by JVC XRCD and Acoustic Sounds. I love the real sound of Brown's bass on these titles. Accuratly deep and dynamic. 88 Basie Street rivals the best RCA's and Mercury's for accurate reproduction of a bands dynamics.

[Soul Stream]

Off the top of my head, 88 Basie Street, Satch and Josh, Basie Big Band, Duke's Big Four and This One's For Blatton are on a few "Best Sounding' lists and have been given the audiophile treatment by JVC XRCD and Acoustic Sounds. I love the real sound of Brown's bass on these titles. Accuratly deep and dynamic. 88 Basie Street rivals the best RCA's and Mercury's for accurate reproduction of a bands dynamics.

Wolff, you're obviously much more experienced and knowledgable about Pablo than I am. I'm probably totally wrong. I've got pretty limited experience with the label, but when someone mentioned the dry sound qualities it did seem to ring a bell with me. However, like I said, I'm really just blowing hot air at this point!

[wolff]

All I know is "I" like 'em. True, musically some are sloppy as hell. Sonically....Satch and Josh spreads 2 pianos out in front of me, about 15-18 feet across(one left, one right). I can hear every chuckle, pedal push and grunt Basie and Pederson make. It's all there in the grooves and it's a fun LP to boot, though it does not break any new ground musically. But, why in the #$%^ should Basie or Pederson have to break any new ground when they are in their 70's and 80's? There old turf is unmatched by anyone today. How's that for hot air?

[Soul Stream]

All I know is "I" like 'em. True, musically some are sloppy as hell. Sonically....Satch and Josh spreads 2 pianos out in front of me, about 15-18 feet across(one left, one right). I can hear every chuckle, pedal push and grunt Basie and Pederson make. It's all there in the grooves and it's a fun LP to boot, though it does not break any new ground musically. But, why in the #$%^ should Basie or Pederson have to break any new ground when they are in their 70's and 80's? There old turf is unmatched by anyone today. How's that for hot air?

Well said! Most of these I haven't heard. The Basie/Peterson stuff sounds VERY interesting! I might have to look out for a few of these in the old used bins and give 'em a spin.

Once again this board has made me check something out!!!

[andersf]

I am somewhat ambivalent regarding the Pablos; I suppose it is good that they were recorded even if somewhat late in the day. But there are few if any masterpieces. At the risk of generalising too much, the best Pablos are not from the time the label was recording officially, but rather issues culled from Norman Granz's cupboard; the Carnegie Hall concert with Parker & Navarro, etc. I can't say that I now feel the urge to own many Pablos, better to check out what the same artists were doing for Granz in the 1950s.

Benny Green, the British jazz critic, wrote a quite a few of the liner notes to Pablo LPs of the 1970s, now part of a book called "Such Sweet Thunder". During my LP years I had quite a few Pablos, and it is an interesting experience rereading these notes. In many cases, the Benny Green's writing proves to be better/more interesting than I remember the music to have been.

Finally, Coleman Hawkins "Sirius", belongs to the category of artist in terminal decline; and is to me one of the few sessions I wish never had been released. Very painful listening.

[John Tapscott]

While there are many Pablos I really enjoy, one gets the impression that Norman Granz rarely did second takes of anything, nor that was he overly concerned about consistent sound quality. Sometimes great, sometimes mediocre. I wouldn't say that Granz did things 'on the cheap' because he supposedly paid his musicians very well, but some Pablo sessions give the impression of being rather rushed affairs. Interestingly, I recall, that in the '70's Pablo records were among the most expensive domestic releases, usually priced a couple of dollars more per LP than other labels.

[kh1958]

I am somewhat ambivalent regarding the Pablos; I suppose it is good that they were recorded even if somewhat late in the day. But there are few if any masterpieces. At the risk of generalising too much, the best Pablos are not from the time the label was recording officially, but rather issues culled from Norman Granz's cupboard; the Carnegie Hall concert with Parker & Navarro, etc. I can't say that I now feel the urge to own many Pablos, better to check out what the same artists were doing for Granz in the 1950s.

Benny Green, the British jazz critic, wrote a quite a few of the liner notes to Pablo LPs of the 1970s, now part of a book called "Such Sweet Thunder". During my LP years I had quite a few Pablos, and it is an interesting experience rereading these notes. In many cases, the Benny Green's writing proves to be better/more interesting than I remember the music to have been.

Finally, Coleman Hawkins "Sirius", belongs to the category of artist in terminal decline; and is to me one of the few sessions I wish never had been released. Very painful listening.

The Dizzy Gillespie and Machito recording is pretty close to masterpiece status, it may be Dizzy's last great recording, and he is in amazing form.

[andersf]

Well, yes, perhaps I overstated a bit.The Pablos are definetly not all mediocre.

Sarah Vaughan "How Long Has This Been Going On" is another very good recording. The duo recording Gilliespie did with Peterson can be mentioned as well.

But all the same; I would still stand with my overall judgement, that few of the artists recording for Pablo did their best work on that label.

[JSngry]

Finally, Coleman Hawkins "Sirius", belongs to the category of artist in terminal decline; and is to me one of the few sessions I wish never had been released. Very painful listening.

I totally agree that it's a painful listen, but I still find great meaning there. Exactly what or why, I can't specifically say though. Maybe it's the stark, unflinching portrait of a man who for so long was invincible being clearly on his last legs doing his damndest to not show any pain or fatalism, and largely succeding. It's about the only thing successful about this album, but in that sense, it's as revealing of the "essence" of Coleman Hawkins as anything he ever recorded.

I'd definitely not recommend it to anybody until they're well into Hawk, and unless they have a bit of a philosophical bent about stuff like that. And it's not a record I listen too often, for obvious reasons. But when I do listen to it, I'm moved, both emotionally and intellectually, and I'm glad I have it.

[JSngry]

On a more pleasant note, this puppy here ain't nothin' but a kickass jam session. Nothing at all new about it, but you put Dizzy & Bags in the middle of Griff & Jaws, and how are sparks NOT gonna fly?

[kh1958]

I have this on laserdisc, not LP or CD, but there's a Roy Eldridge Live at Montreux recording, from 1977, with Oscar Peterson, Bobby Durham and Nils Pederson, where Roy plays incredibly--one of his best recordings.

[sidewinder]

How about this puppy from the mid-70s, recorded in Japan by Milt with Teddy Edwards, Cedar Walton, Ray Brown and Billy Higgins. Dream team!

Not to forget this nice Japanese offering from Benny Carter either!

The original vinyls on 'Pablo Live' are particularly cool on both of these...

Edited August 28, 2003 by sidewinder

[Jazzmoose]

I only have two Pablo LPs, Coltrane's Afro Blue Impressions and JATP at the Montreux Jazz Festival 1975, but judging from the latter, and their catalog, this is most definitely a conservative jazz label. On the other hand, I don't see anything wrong with that. The JATP LP I have is about as conservative as jazz gets for it's issue date (in my not-so-knowledgable opinion), but it's a lot of fun.

[montg]

Picked this one up used from Euclid Records yesterday in St. Louis. I didn't know what to expect since Lockjaw Davis, Sweets, and Al Grey were all in their 60s when this was recorded.. but man, this swings. All three sound inspired--no coasting and some wonderful blues.

[Brad]

Some of their offering may not be all that enticing to some but Dizzy's Big 4, plus some of those senior citizens, who were trailblazers in their day, deserved to get recorded.

[wolff]

I own quite a few Pablos on vinyl. I really like many of them, but also got rid of a few. As I've mentioned before, some have very good music and dynamic range that is life-like.

Fantasy or their new owners ought to put together a "Best of Pablo" series(maybe 30 titles) and price them low and let us pick them.

[Spontooneous]

I'm gonna let my Kaycee prejudices show here by recommending the Basie jam session with Eddie "Cleanhead" Vinson, who got so few opportunities to blow so freely on record.

And the Mary Lou Williams solo recital from Montreux is a definite keeper too.

Here's a hearty second to the Sarah Vaughan "How Long...?" and the Gillespie/Machito session.

[montg]

I've been enjoying some Pablo sessions lately, reminding me of a thread I started a few years ago. Since that time, I've had some hits and misses, but these I've been particularly enjoying:

[marcello]

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

On a more pleasant note, this puppy here ain't nothin' but a kickass jam session. Nothing at all new about it, but you put Dizzy & Bags in the middle of Griff & Jaws, and how are sparks NOT gonna fly?

Hellfire!!!!

Glad this thread got bumped - never heard of that one before! "Oof!" "Wee!" "Pow!" any other titles?

MG

[JSngry]

"I'll Remember April" iirc.

[Tom 1960]

Great to you across threads like these. While the consensus is to proceed with caution, there appears to be a good number of recommendations here worth seeking out. The above Dizzy Big 7 sounds very interesting along with the Gillespie/Peterson collaborations. Thanks for reviving this thread!

[marcello]

Dizzy Gillespie's last great record.