Most Overrated 50's-60's Blue Notes

[paul secor]

brownie's post wasn't there when I wrote the first paragraph above. Obviously, Cecil wasn't enamored of the BN/RVG sound.

Cecil wasn't enamorated with the RVG sound. Period.

When CT was in Paris in 1966 - that was before I heard those two BNs - we had arguments about the way RVG captured the Miles Davis Quintet on those Prestige sessions. I was trying to defend that sound, Cecil was against!

Hard to win against Cecil Taylor I didn't!

That was my impression when I heard him speak. He wasn't going to go against what he believed in - which is probably why he's still doing what he does and why I'm still listening to his music.

[B. Clugston]

When something is overrated, it’s got nothing to do with the music--it’s about critics building something up and then tearing it down. I look at this more as 'albums most people love, but I don’t.' Among the Blue Notes, Night Dreamer and a lot of Blakey’s Messenger dates don’t thrill me as much as their reputation. Nothing wrong with the music, just my taste.

As for The Byrds, I love Clarence White’s playing on the live sides of Untitled.

[GA Russell]

I note that Royal Flush is now available from BMG/Your Music.

[clifford_thornton]

don't bother but if yr ever w/a gal who really likes her, don't argue too much. seriously, yr better of going on a Judy Collins binge, no lie. Emmylou is too pretty, too wan, the much feted Lanois side from the '90s a total dog, HORRIBLE cover over excellent Neil song "Wrecking Ball." as a gateway drug for the real 'billy or bluegrass... OK, but otherwise... uh-uh. Lucinda Williams, if you ever get the urge, is greater than Emmylou & fucking Paul Westerberg combined, even if dorks have, at times, been all over her too... oh, Gillian Welch is the real deal also, a remarkable-- & rare-- example of someone being able to work in old-styles in an totally distinct manner. (Joni, tho' not my totem, is legit too, natch, & Sandy Denny also-- faaaaaar superior interpretive singer to Emmylou also tho' if you pull on Emmy's silver mane... yeehaw.)

straight outta the dungeons of folk--

c

Thanks. Yeah, Gillian is really good. I get annoyed with Mark Olsen, thus sullying my readings of Williams' work. Sandy Denny is/was at one time also rather good - Fairport has a fair amount of dreck, but Lief and Liege is a mother.

[Jazzmoose]

u r nutz about cornbread

Amen, brother!

[J Larsen]

On the topic of overlooked labels, Candid had some damned impressive records. Too bad their availability is so sporadic. I've gotten to the point where if I see something on Candid that I don't already have, I usually just jump on it. Haven't been very disappointed too many times.

[BruceH]

Actually, there's a shit-load of "wasn't released until the 70's" BN dates that are among my all-time favorites.

Mothership (Young)

Solid (Green)

Etcetera (Shorter)

and probably half-a-dozen more (or more!!), if I really thought about it. I'm serious (really).

Yeah, how about those Tina Brooks albums (all but True Blue, I believe.)

Now someone is going to chime in that Brooks is overrated. Well, if you say that he's the best tenorist of all time, then yes, that's going a bit too far... Otherwise, no, he ain't overrated.

[BruceH]

The Moncurs

Some of the Hubbards

Yes, I agree.

[BruceH]

i will also add "page one", though i am not sure that one is super highly regarded everywhere....

actually i will also add "go" to your list. as well as it's sister album "swinging affair"???. i found them boring.

Well, Swing Affair is a little boring in comparison to Go, that I'll grant you, but then, Go is one of my favorite albums of all time so I can't get on board for that.

[michel1969]

On the topic of overlooked labels, Candid had some damned impressive records. Too bad their availability is so sporadic. I've gotten to the point where if I see something on Candid that I don't already have, I usually just jump on it. Haven't been very disappointed too many times.

Candid , yes i'll second that (Mingus, Booker Ervin, Toshiko + Mariano...) ! and

Epic (Charlie Rouse, Phil Woods, Dave bailey ! ) and

Jazzland (Don Sleet, René Thomas) and

Riverside (countless) and

Prestige (Mobleys, Bryant, Burrell, Flanagab + countless) and

Savoy (Detroit jazzmen) and many others ! and Atlantic (Candoli levy, Fruscella, Konitz, Montrose)

and Mode (Marsh, Kamuca) and

Jubilee (Herb Geller)....

Edited December 5, 2006 by Michel

[ep1str0phy]

We partied pretty hard to Stepping Into Tomorrow back in the day. It was just the right soundtrack for losing virginity.

Interesting--but have you ever partied to Andrew Hill?!

[ep1str0phy]

sidenote: how do ya'll rank Johnny Griffin's Riverside leader sessions, & those different contexts? (Not including Griff & Jaws, which we all know is straight fire.)

I think that griff was significantly better served at Riverside than at BN, although whether or not that was as much a matter of his own maturing as anything else, I'm not ready to say. But Riverside was definitely more amenable to different/expanded/whatever settings than was BN, for whatever reason.

Now, about Unit Structures, again, some historical perspective is called for. You gotta remember that prior to that, the last Cecil date that was out there was the Into The Hot material, and that that was still "Cecil playing over time". (I know that some of the Montmartre stuff was released in the US on Fantasy/Debut, but A)that was a trio date, B)Fantasy back in those days was not all that widely distributed except for a few "hits", and C)I don't know exactly when that album was released. Anyway, good luck finding a copy, then or now).

Anyway, Unit Structures was the first side with profile (and quite possibly the first side period) to present Cecil Taylor's music in the form that we all know today. It could be argued that pretty much everything that's come since is an expansion on what was first documented on that album. So afaic, it's "classic" status is a no-brainer, even if the music wasn't as incredible as it is ("Enter Evening" alone is one for the ages, & getting an alternate of it on the CD was a gift from on high). He'd have come out (no pun intended) somewhere sooner or later, but this is where it happened, and there ain't no changing that. There literally was no Cecil Taylor music like this on record before Unit Structures, but there's been plenty of it since. So I say you gotta give recording props to the recorded archetype.

Ah--and there's the historical perspective. There's a dearth of recordings of Ayler from this period, although we've since heard a few "un-metered" recordings from earlier years. How do you think this one stacks up, in light of what's available now (i.e., with respect to Nefertiti, which was earlier)? They can't all have the right impact, but there's something to be said for hindsight...

[ep1str0phy]

FWIW: I love Tina Brooks. I like Mobley a lot. I like the Hubbard BNs - most of 'em, anyway - quite a bit. For my money, DC's music was MUCH better live or at least in concert recordings than in the studio. The endearing ragtag assembly of it was often lost when the studio light was on. Cecil's BNs are great if ill-recorded; strangely I feel the same way about Anthony Williams' dates. Personally, I'll let others make the case for Hill and Henderson because I don't have it in me, though I can get with the latter's sideman BN appearances in a few cases. The LaRoca is the shit.

I'm thinking Eternal Rhythm right now. There's definitely something discomfitingly precise about Symphony--which is still enjoy dearly--which doesn't jibe with the rest of his large group output. Maybe the strictures of the recording studio just pulled his "ragged glory" a little too far in, or maybe RVG's style simply worked better for the smaller group (I, too, think that Communion might be the more "successful" document). Don's stuff--especially his large group material--was the sort that needed that group energy to work off of (and I guess it's hard to have that communion when you're playing to the mic).

[Guest the mommy]

"dialogue" and "search for the new land" are two more blue notes which are highly regarded and i wouldn't place as my favorites for the respective musicians.

and later 60s, "song of singing" is highly regarded and it leaves me cold. especially compared to "now he sings..".

[felser]

The Byrds lost a GIANT when Gene Clark split and tho' Notorious Byrd Brothers is brilliant, little of anything that followed ranks. Gram wasn't good 'til later & you can get yr Clarence White better elsewhere.

through the morning, through the night--

c

That lightens things up.

I'm not enough of a Byrds' fan to comment, but I do know that they gained when David Crosby split - The Asshole of the Earth.

Actually, they lost bigtime in musical terms when Clark and then Crosby split. The McGuinn/Clark/Crosby trio was the magic of the Byrds. All had their moments in the years afterwards, obviously, but nothing that holds a candle to the magic of the first four Byrds albums (five if you want to count 'Preflyte', which is fine with me). Not that this has anything to do with the original intent of the thread, but the prime Byrds are my favorite rock group of all time, so I can't resist comment

[Guy Berger]

"dialogue" and "search for the new land" are two more blue notes which are highly regarded and i wouldn't place as my favorites for the respective musicians.

and later 60s, "song of singing" is highly regarded and it leaves me cold. especially compared to "now he sings..".

mommy,

What are your favorite Hutcherson and Morgan albums?

Guy

[Guest the mommy]

morgan albums-the gigolo, the last session, the sixth sense, taru, live at the lighthouse

hutcherson albums-oblique, patterns, total eclipse, stick up!, cirrus, medina

[felser]

"song of singing" is highly regarded and it leaves me cold. especially compared to "now he sings..".

Totally agree with that.

[ep1str0phy]

I'll break up the "hate fest" [ ] and say that Patterns is > sliced bread.

[Guest the mommy]

i was responding to guy in my last post...patterns is one of my favorites too.

[ep1str0phy]

Oh no, I got that, too. In spite of it all, I know there's a lot of shared love up in here.

[felser]

Oh no, I got that, too. In spite of it all, I know there's a lot of shared love up in here.

Everybody loves Blue Note here, everybody has many titles on that label which are priceless to them.

[ep1str0phy]

Wouldn't doubt it.

[John L]

sidenote: how do ya'll rank Johnny Griffin's Riverside leader sessions, & those different contexts? (Not including Griff & Jaws, which we all know is straight fire.)

I think that griff was significantly better served at Riverside than at BN, although whether or not that was as much a matter of his own maturing as anything else, I'm not ready to say. But Riverside was definitely more amenable to different/expanded/whatever settings than was BN, for whatever reason.

Now, about Unit Structures, again, some historical perspective is called for. You gotta remember that prior to that, the last Cecil date that was out there was the Into The Hot material, and that that was still "Cecil playing over time". (I know that some of the Montmartre stuff was released in the US on Fantasy/Debut, but A)that was a trio date, B)Fantasy back in those days was not all that widely distributed except for a few "hits", and C)I don't know exactly when that album was released. Anyway, good luck finding a copy, then or now).

Anyway, Unit Structures was the first side with profile (and quite possibly the first side period) to present Cecil Taylor's music in the form that we all know today. It could be argued that pretty much everything that's come since is an expansion on what was first documented on that album. So afaic, it's "classic" status is a no-brainer, even if the music wasn't as incredible as it is ("Enter Evening" alone is one for the ages, & getting an alternate of it on the CD was a gift from on high). He'd have come out (no pun intended) somewhere sooner or later, but this is where it happened, and there ain't no changing that. There literally was no Cecil Taylor music like this on record before Unit Structures, but there's been plenty of it since. So I say you gotta give recording props to the recorded archetype.

That's an interesting perspective, Jim. I guess that, given the Cafe Montmartre recordings, I had never thought of Unit Structures as being so much of a step forward, particularly as it came several years later. I have always considered Cafe Montmartre as the foundation for everything that came since. It may have only been a trio, but the trio is to Cecil what the string quartet was to Beethoven. It includes pretty much the whole palette. Certainly, Unit Structures was important in giving the widest dissemination yet of Cecil's mature music at the time. It is not clear if that has much bearing on its significance today. On the other hand, you and many others find the music to be incredible. So I guess that is enough.

There is an interesting philosophical question in here somewhere. If a recording is very popular primarily because it has great sentimental value to many people who used it as an introduction to something new, can that make it "overrated?" For example, I would say Dave Brubeck's Take Five is so loved not only because it is a very interesting album, but because it was THE introduction to jazz for a lot of people.

Edited December 6, 2006 by John L

[John L]

We partied pretty hard to Stepping Into Tomorrow back in the day. It was just the right soundtrack for losing virginity.

Interesting--but have you ever partied to Andrew Hill?!

I have always been too scared to dance with death.

Edited December 6, 2006 by John L