felser Posted December 3, 2006 Report Posted December 3, 2006 This is one I've wanted to do for awhile. What are some of the so-called "classic" Blue Note dates which leave you cold? I'm not talking about 'Jimmy Smith Plays Fats Waller' or Donald Byrd's 'I'm Trying To Get Home' or Dodo Greene, I'm talking about the ones that get spoken of in hushed, reverential tones, yet at the end of the day sort of leave you cold. Here are a few that come to mind for me: Jackie McLean - New and Old Gospel Jackie McLean - Tippin' The Scales Jackie McLean - 'Bout Soul (but I LOVE McLean's stuff overall, but some belonged in the can) Freddie Redd- all of them, especially 'The Connection' Ornette Coleman - At The Golden Circle Tony Williams - Lifetime Grant Green - 'The Latin Bit' 'Goin' West', 'Feelin' The Spirit' Lee Morgan - Cornbread (it's good, but the composing disappoints me) Bobby Hutcherson - Components Don Cherry - Symphony For Improvisors Quote
Dan Gould Posted December 3, 2006 Report Posted December 3, 2006 This is one I've wanted to do for awhile. What are some of the so-called "classic" Blue Note dates which leave you cold? I'm not talking about 'Jimmy Smith Plays Fats Waller' or Donald Byrd's 'I'm Trying To Get Home' or Dodo Greene, I'm talking about the ones that get spoken of in hushed, reverential tones, yet at the end of the day sort of leave you cold. Here are a few that come to mind for me: Jackie McLean - New and Old Gospel Jackie McLean - Tippin' The Scales Jackie McLean - 'Bout Soul (but I LOVE McLean's stuff overall, but some belonged in the can) Freddie Redd- all of them, especially 'The Connection' Ornette Coleman - At The Golden Circle Tony Williams - Lifetime Grant Green - 'The Latin Bit' 'Goin' West', 'Feelin' The Spirit' Lee Morgan - Cornbread (it's good, but the composing disappoints me) Bobby Hutcherson - Components Don Cherry - Symphony For Improvisors You make it sound as if most of Blue Note's output in those years is spoken of in "hushed, reverential tones". Not everything deserves that treatment, though maybe its that Blue Note Mystique that covers everything. Personally, I don't regard "The Latin Bit" or "Feelin The Spirit" or "Tippin' The Scales" as "classic" by any means. Just good, solid, enjoyable sessions. So on that basic, I can't identify "classic" Blue Notes that leave me cold. Of the ones you identify, I definitely cannot fathom anything less than superlatives for Cornbread. Quote
Big Wheel Posted December 3, 2006 Report Posted December 3, 2006 I don't know who reveres Tippin' the Scales so much. In comparison with Jackie's other sessions, I bet at least 75% of those who are familiar with it rate it no better than a C+. On the other hand, The Latin Bit and Feelin' the Spirit are just gorgeous to my ears. They aren't necessarily the deepest of the entire genre, but I could listen to Grant Green play "Brazil" all day long. Quote
danasgoodstuff Posted December 3, 2006 Report Posted December 3, 2006 Can't think of any offhand, I totally love pretty much all of the above... Quote
JSngry Posted December 3, 2006 Report Posted December 3, 2006 Tippin' The Scales wasn't even regarded all that highly by Lion, apparently, seeing as how it wasn't released until the 70s... Quote
felser Posted December 3, 2006 Author Report Posted December 3, 2006 Tippin' The Scales wasn't even regarded all that highly by Lion, apparently, seeing as how it wasn't released until the 70s... 'Course he didn't release 'Jacknife' until then either, and that's a stone classic. I'm sorry to see that we're so many posts into this thread, and no one else has added any albums. Quote
ep1str0phy Posted December 3, 2006 Report Posted December 3, 2006 (edited) Jackie McLean - New and Old Gospel Jackie McLean - Tippin' The Scales Jackie McLean - 'Bout Soul (but I LOVE McLean's stuff overall, but some belonged in the can) Freddie Redd- all of them, especially 'The Connection' Ornette Coleman - At The Golden Circle Tony Williams - Lifetime Grant Green - 'The Latin Bit' 'Goin' West', 'Feelin' The Spirit' Lee Morgan - Cornbread (it's good, but the composing disappoints me) Bobby Hutcherson - Components Don Cherry - Symphony For Improvisors Almost all of these are among my favorite BNs. Including 'Bout Soul--but then we get into questions of aesthetic, and I can't remember too many other people who swooned over this BN quasi-free thing. I'm not the biggest fan of Maiden Voyage, especially in light of the greatness that is Empyrean Isles. Edited December 3, 2006 by ep1str0phy Quote
ep1str0phy Posted December 3, 2006 Report Posted December 3, 2006 Inevitably, I'll add, this winds up being a "favorites/I like/don't like" thread. Someone out there thinks that too much praise is heaped on Speak No Evil. Quote
Guy Berger Posted December 3, 2006 Report Posted December 3, 2006 (edited) Lee Morgan, The Sidewinder Art Blakey, Moanin' (the band got a major upgrade once Wayen replaced Golson) Wayne Shorter, Speak No Evil (a good album, but I'd rather hear any of his albums with Miles over this one) Joe Lovano, From the Soul (again, a good album, but not a classic) Also, I think Hank Mobley and Lee Morgan are overrated in general among Blue Note fans. Guy Edited December 3, 2006 by Guy Quote
GA Russell Posted December 3, 2006 Report Posted December 3, 2006 Wayne Shorter - Super Nova. Not a bad album, but I don't think it is on a par with his other Blue Notes. Quote
GA Russell Posted December 4, 2006 Report Posted December 4, 2006 Well I won't kid about Blue Train. It's my least favorite Coltrane album, except for A Love Supreme. I don't get why people make such a big deal over it. Quote
felser Posted December 4, 2006 Author Report Posted December 4, 2006 Inevitably, I'll add, this winds up being a "favorites/I like/don't like" thread. Someone out there thinks that too much praise is heaped on Speak No Evil. Actually, what made me think about this for some time is that it seems like every time any 60's Blue Note album is mentioned, people are jumping on and declaring it one of the great masterpieces of all time, regardless of title. I'm trying to stimulate people, especially some of the newer/younger guys, to think/listen through some of this. I mean, I love the Blue Note sound, but not every title is among the greatest. If there are 500 of them, then 100 of those rank in the bottom 20%. (BTW, I think 'Speak No Evil' is awesome). Quote
ep1str0phy Posted December 4, 2006 Report Posted December 4, 2006 (edited) Wayne Shorter, Speak No Evil (a good album, but I'd rather hear any of his albums with Miles over this one) HEY-OH! felser--agree with the intent (breaking through the brand name hero-worship thing, which seems to blind us to honest critical appraisal at times), but this kind of thread seems to have been attempted before--and, as you said, this is the stuff that leaves us cold (as in us v. them). And it's true that, if you run through the archives, almost every BN will be hailed as a masterpiece (but by a different cat each time?). It's nothing with the "general" consensus on the albums themselves (i.e., I like Components, as do a few other folks on this board, but you'll probably find just as many or more guys who don't--we're just vocal in the defense; in other words, you'll find far fewer people speaking in those "hushed tones")--just that someone here is bound to think that something that someone doesn't like is really something, dig? In the spirit of the spirit, then: I don't know what the deal with Am I Blue? is, nor why it was elected for an RVG. Edited December 4, 2006 by ep1str0phy Quote
chewy-chew-chew-bean-benitez Posted December 4, 2006 Report Posted December 4, 2006 u r nutz about cornbread Quote
Guest the mommy Posted December 4, 2006 Report Posted December 4, 2006 Jackie McLean - New and Old Gospel Jackie McLean - Tippin' The Scales Jackie McLean - 'Bout Soul (but I LOVE McLean's stuff overall, but some belonged in the can) Freddie Redd- all of them, especially 'The Connection' Ornette Coleman - At The Golden Circle Tony Williams - Lifetime Grant Green - 'The Latin Bit' 'Goin' West', 'Feelin' The Spirit' Lee Morgan - Cornbread (it's good, but the composing disappoints me) Bobby Hutcherson - Components Don Cherry - Symphony For Improvisors i agree with you on "components" and "cornbread" and "the latin bit". i feel the same way. i do not agree about "symphony..." or "new and old gospel" (i used to, though) or "bout soul (also used to on this one). someone else mentioned "maiden voyage" and i kind of agree. i will add "soul station". it is boring, IMO. i will also add "ready for freddie" and "point of departure" to your list as three albums, very highly respected, that don't grab me. Quote
Guest the mommy Posted December 4, 2006 Report Posted December 4, 2006 i will also add "page one", though i am not sure that one is super highly regarded everywhere.... actually i will also add "go" to your list. as well as it's sister album "swinging affair"???. i found them boring. Quote
Rooster_Ties Posted December 4, 2006 Report Posted December 4, 2006 (edited) Tippin' The Scales wasn't even regarded all that highly by Lion, apparently, seeing as how it wasn't released until the 70s... Well, neither was Shorter's "Etcetera" -- which wasn't released until the 70's either. And we all know that "Etcetera" is THE best Shorter-lead date EVER!!!! ( ), so it's not like "wasn't released until the 70's" is proof of anything. But all half-kidding aside, "Etcetera" really is MY all-time favorite Shorter leader date, and I think arguably one of his best (maybe one of his very best) -- AND it wasn't released until the 70's. PS: And add me to the "Bluetrain" is overrated party. "Bluetrain" is good, but it sure ain't any better than "real good" in my book. IMHO, that date is WAY overrated, in terms of the credit it gets (and sales it generates). "Bluetrain" wouldn't be in my personal "top-50" favorite BN dates list, and it wouldn't even crack my "top-20 from the 50's" favorite BN list either. Edited December 4, 2006 by Rooster_Ties Quote
Rooster_Ties Posted December 4, 2006 Report Posted December 4, 2006 (edited) Actually, there's a shit-load of "wasn't released until the 70's" BN dates that are among my all-time favorites. Mothership (Young) Solid (Green) Etcetera (Shorter) and probably half-a-dozen more (or more!!), if I really thought about it. I'm serious (really). And there's some that didn't see the light of day until the 90's and 00's that I feel the same way about. Boogaloo (Patton) Passing Ships (Hill) Again, several others I'm forgetting at the moment. MANY of my all-time favorite BN dates weren't released until the 70's. LOTS!!! Edited December 4, 2006 by Rooster_Ties Quote
ep1str0phy Posted December 4, 2006 Report Posted December 4, 2006 (edited) I'm with you on all of those, Rooster (notwithstanding Blue Train). Edited December 4, 2006 by ep1str0phy Quote
Rooster_Ties Posted December 4, 2006 Report Posted December 4, 2006 (edited) I thought I'd done this before (this post is from a thread from over three years ago, entitled 5 Favorite Conns to recommend). I've added a lot of red to the post, to highlight the "wasn't released until the 70's or later" dates... Strangely enough - I just realized that most of the choices in my "top-16" Conn list are dates that were unreleased for many years, until they finally came out in the 70's, 90's, or even later. Nearly 2/3rds of these titles sat in the vaults for 10-35 years (the dates below in red)... "Top 16 Conns" 1. Wayne Shorter - Etcetera 2. Hank Mobley - Third Season 3. Andrew Hill - Lift Every Voice 4. Chick Corea – The Complete 'IS' Sessions 5. Don Cherry – Complete Communion 6. Lee Morgan – The Procrastinator 7. Andrew Hill - Judgement 8. Jackie McLean – Jacknife 9. Bobby Hutcherson - Medina/Spiral 10. Grant Green - Solid 11. Lee Morgan - Infinity 12. Pete La Roca - Basra 13. Dizzy Reece – Comin’ On 14. Larry Young - Mother Ship 15. Andrew Hill - Tomorrow is Now!! a.k.a. Passing Ships 16. Sam Rivers - Fuschia Swing Song "Honorable Mention" Andrew Hill - Grass Roots Wayne Shorter – The All-Seeing Eye / Schizophrenia Jackie McLean – Destination Out! / ‘Bout Soul / Vertigo Bobby Hutcherson - Patterns / Stick-up! Grachan Moncur III – Some Other Stuff Larry Young – Into Somethin’ Hank Mobley - A Slice of the Top Tina Brooks – Minor Move / Back to the Tracks / The Waiting Game Grant Geen – Green Street / Sunday Mornin’ Booker Ervin – Structurally Sound / The In-between Donald Byrd – Byrd in Flight Johnny Coles – Little Johnny C Dizzy Reece – Blues in Trinity Horace Parlan – On the Spur of the Moment / Us Three PS: My favorite "Rare Groove" CD's are also previously unreleased sessions, that didn't ever come out until the 90's... John Patton - Boogaloo Donald Byrd - Donald-Kofi Also, the only Conn I have that I don't really care for all that much, is.... Don Wilkerson – The Complete Blue Note Sessions FYI, if I'm remembering what I've got right, then I've got 66/99 of the Conns (in some form or another, TOCJ, Mosiac, etc...) Like I said a few posts back, a shitload of my all-time favotite BN dates weren't released until the 70's, or way later. Edited December 4, 2006 by Rooster_Ties Quote
Jim R Posted December 4, 2006 Report Posted December 4, 2006 Inevitably, I'll add, this winds up being a "favorites/I like/don't like" thread. Someone out there thinks that too much praise is heaped on Speak No Evil. Actually, what made me think about this for some time is that it seems like every time any 60's Blue Note album is mentioned, people are jumping on and declaring it one of the great masterpieces of all time, regardless of title. I'm trying to stimulate people, especially some of the newer/younger guys, to think/listen through some of this. I mean, I love the Blue Note sound, but not every title is among the greatest. If there are 500 of them, then 100 of those rank in the bottom 20%. (BTW, I think 'Speak No Evil' is awesome). Basically, I agree that the Blue Note label tends to get overhyped. We've been over that a dozen times, going back to threads on the board hosted by the label in question. It used to suprise me how many members of the BNBB seemed virtually unaware of the Fantasy catalog, for example. At any rate, all of this is highly subjective. Everybody has their own tastes, and their own personal favorite artists and recordings. We all know (we've had it beaten into our brains ) that Rooster loves Andrew Hill and the "progressive" post-bop era. I'm sort of the opposite. I much prefer Benny Golson over Wayne Shorter (as a player as well as a composer). "Cornbread" includes "Ceora", and that alone makes it indispensible to me. "Page One"? Indispensible to me, for "Blue Bossa", "La Mesha", and the chemistry between Henderson and Dorham. "GO"? Hey, it's Dexter, you MF's. Bottom line- I suspect that nothing will come of this discussion. Seriously, I'm all for newer/younger jazz fans being encouraged to think for themselves (don't pay any attention to those AMG reviews... that's my motto). Quote
JSngry Posted December 4, 2006 Report Posted December 4, 2006 Thisng is, there weren't very many "bad" BNs from this period. It's all pretty above-average for the most part, especially from the late-50s on (I myself find the early/mid 50s dates much more variable). Some are just better than others, and that's where all the subjectivity comes in. Is every one of them a "classic"? No, of course not. But there's a consistency there that seems to lead the enthusiatics among us to think so, and that's an impression that can easily be excused, at least for a little while. I will say this - other than Royal Flush, there's no Donald Byrd album I'd just have to have. Quote
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