World Saxophone Quartet

[AllenLowe]

two sextet CDs are Fat Man and the Hard Blues and 5 Chord Stud - both highly recommended - I think they are on Black Saint - as I mentioned, Hemphill thought of the Sextet as a kind of revenge on the WSQ - it was his way of saying, keep your damn quartet, I can do it for six -

Edited November 26, 2006 by AllenLowe

[7/4]

two sextet CDs are Fat Man and the Hard Blues and 5 Chord Stud - both highly recommended - I think they are on Black Saint - as I mentioned, Hemphill thought of the Sextet as a kind of revenge on the WSQ - it was his way of saying, keep your damn quartet, I can do it for six -

I'll get 'em. DMG has Black Saint.

[Guy Berger]

What was the deal with Woods?

Oh, he was doing some Blindfold Test thing and they played him a cut off that album and he went batshit, talking about how "they shit on Ellington! They shit on Duke!" or some looney-tooney crap like that. Same as his infamous comments about Braxton in a similar context many years earlier, only his sense of "outrage" was even more f-ed up because he'd had more than enough time to figure stuff out and obviously hadn't.

God, what an idiot. Doesn't look like I'll be checking out his music any time soon.

Guy

[brownie]

God, what an idiot. Doesn't look like I'll be checking out his music any time soon.

Guy

You would be very wrong. There's a lot of beautiful music in a number of Phil Woods albums. Not all of them by any means.

He may be narrow-minded in his musical appreciations but he is one of the most dedicated and passionate player!

[JSngry]

What was the deal with Woods?

Oh, he was doing some Blindfold Test thing and they played him a cut off that album and he went batshit, talking about how "they shit on Ellington! They shit on Duke!" or some looney-tooney crap like that. Same as his infamous comments about Braxton in a similar context many years earlier, only his sense of "outrage" was even more f-ed up because he'd had more than enough time to figure stuff out and obviously hadn't.

God, what an idiot. Doesn't look like I'll be checking out his music any time soon.

Guy

Well hey - my "professional respect" for Phil Woods is quite high. As a saxophonist, he's unquestionably a master, and he's one of the greatest lead altoists in the history of the music. But I'm not a fan of his work after he came back to America in the early 70s, and as far as what he "thinks" about post-Ornette music, he can go fuck himself as far as I'm concerned.

[Simon Weil]

What was the deal with Woods?

Oh, he was doing some Blindfold Test thing and they played him a cut off that album and he went batshit, talking about how "they shit on Ellington! They shit on Duke!" or some looney-tooney crap like that. Same as his infamous comments about Braxton in a similar context many years earlier, only his sense of "outrage" was even more f-ed up because he'd had more than enough time to figure stuff out and obviously hadn't.

God, what an idiot. Doesn't look like I'll be checking out his music any time soon.

Guy

What comes out of guys' mouths and what comes out of their horns are different things.

As a rule. I mean if you can say it why bother to play it?

True across the arts.

Simon Weil

Edited November 26, 2006 by Simon Weil

[John L]

Yea, I don't think too many people have stopped listening to Miles because of all the terrrible things that he said about Dolphy and Ornette's music. People are welcome to their own opinions.

The comments here about Hemphill and the WSQ are interesting. I guess that not too many people share Martin Williams' opinion any more about the WSQ being THE most imprortant jazz band of their time. I didn't realize that Hemphill was forced out by the other three. On the other hand, it did seem like Hemphill was becoming increasingly assertive as the de facto leader of the WSQ, and I guess the desire for a more democratic unit was understandable. Personally, I side with those here whose primary interest in the WSQ is Hemphill. I have all of the WSQ discs with Hemphill and none of the others.

[AllenLowe]

it really had nothing to do with democracy in the group - Julius was happy to share the credit and the writing - it was pure jealousy, based on the Downbeat article which rightfully credited Hemphill with the organizing concept - and with Bluett and Murray in particular you had two highly f'd up individuals who were going through particular craziness in their personal lives (on top of their own innate asshole-ness) -

Edited November 27, 2006 by AllenLowe

[Randy Twizzle]

What was the deal with Woods?

Oh, he was doing some Blindfold Test thing and they played him a cut off that album and he went batshit, talking about how "they shit on Ellington! They shit on Duke!" or some looney-tooney crap like that. Same as his infamous comments about Braxton in a similar context many years earlier, only his sense of "outrage" was even more f-ed up because he'd had more than enough time to figure stuff out and obviously hadn't.

Maybe I'm crazy but I seem to remember that it was Stan Getz who did the "they shit on Duke" diatribe during the blindfold test.

[JSngry]

Come to think of it, you might be right. Please confirm.

[Chas]

Don't know whether it was Woods or Getz that disparaged the WSQ , but Dave Liebman weighed in a couple of years ago in his Jazztimes blindfold test :

7. World Saxophone Quartet

“Try A Little Tenderness” (from Rhythm And Blues, Elektra Musicians). David Murray, tenor sax, arranger; Oliver Lake, alto sax; Julius Hemphill, alto sax; Hamiet Bluiett, baritone sax. Recorded in 1988.

BEFORE: I mean, this band made a contribution, no question about it because who would put a saxophone quartet together like that? I mean, white guys wouldn’t do that, they would get it perfect. These guys have a nice attitude towards it, it’s churchy and stuff...I can go with that. But the performance was just not together. I don’t know if you don’t have enough time to do other takes or not, but the downbeats aren’t together here. Maybe there’s a calculatedness to it that they like. I never really go for this kind of stuff in general because I think it’s a little too obvious what you’re trying to do, voicing-wise and everything. It’s one of those older pop tunes, a nice tune. So in that way the voicings fit for what they’re doing. But there’s just a certain thing that I just look for when I hear somebody play, and it’s beyond style because it doesn’t matter if it’s inside, outside or whatever. It’s a certain amount of control over what you’re doing. And control means...again, notwithstanding stylistic differences, I mean, but if you’re going to play a flurry of notes and you’re going to play up and down and stuff like that, there’s a certain amount of cleanness on the beginning and end of a phrase that, to me, should be apparent somewhere. If it’s not for too long then I start to be a little bit disappointed in the performance. If this was a student I would stop the tape and say, “Where was your beginning, where’s you end, where’s your articulation? Maybe I’m not following your thought. Could you show me where the thought ends and begins? Maybe it’s beyond my hearing, I’ll admit that. But let’s go there and put a frame around it, because everything needs a frame in music.” I mean, you need some kind of frame. It could be long, long breaths and long frames, but you need a frame. This kind of playing sometimes to me feels like he’s turning the engine on and just going full-throttle without a pause. And there’s a place for that and certainly there’s people who love that and respond to that because of the energy level. But I’m not sure how much artisticness there is in it. And to me, after a while, it just gets to sound the same. That’s the way I hear it.

AFTER: Those cats, as much as I like some of them individually sometimes they seem to go there a lot, to me. We played opposite them once and I felt the same way. So that’s my feeling about that. But look, they made a big splash because they did things that other cats wouldn’t have done in a saxophone quartet, because usually it comes out of the classical tradition -- it’s very clean, it’s very clear. When I do saxophone quartets it’s accurate and all that stuff. And this is like saying, “OK, let’s go.” On that level I can dig it.

[Larry Kart]

If we're lucky, Chuck eventually will be able to reissue the four-alto, 17-plus-minutes version of Roscoe Mitchell's "Nonaah" -- rec. 1/22/77 with Roscoe, Joseph Jarman, Henry Threadgill, and Wallace McMillan and originally issued on a 2-LP Nessa set of the same name, along with an explosive solo concert version of "Nonaah" and other pieces with Mitchell solo and joined by others (Braxton, Muhal Richard Abrams, George Lewis, Malachi Favors). The quartet "Nonaah" is a masterwork.

[John L]

it really had nothing to do with democracy in the group - Julius was happy to share the credit and the writing - it was pure jealousy, based on the Downbeat article which rightfully credited Hemphill with the organizing concept - and with Bluett and Murray in particular you had two highly f'd up individuals who were going through particular craziness in their personal lives (on top of their own innate asshole-ness) -

Thanks for the clarification, Allen.

[Nate Dorward]

Actually I'm glad to see that comment from Liebman, because that particular performance really really rubs me the wrong way. Never liked that album much.

Of the sax quartets from that period the one I follow is ROVA--some of it's a tough nut, but they can be astounding. The recent disc Totally Spinning was a treat because it was so untypical: it was downright funky & dionysian, with only a couple of more abstract pieces. -- Talked to Larry Ochs a few months back at Guelph & he told me that one of the main inspirations for the formation of ROVA was a Steve Lacy album from the 1970s with a saxophone-heavy lineup--I don't remember the title, does anyone know the one he's referring to?

[John L]

Talked to Larry Ochs a few months back at Guelph & he told me that one of the main inspirations for the formation of ROVA was a Steve Lacy album from the 1970s with a saxophone-heavy lineup--I don't remember the title, does anyone know the one he's referring to?

I assume that it must be this stuff, which I have never heard

SAXOPHONE SPECIAL: Steve Lacy

1/ Staples (Lacy) 9:40

2/ Dreams (Lacy) 11:20

3/ Swishes (Lacy) 5:45

4/ Sops (Lacy, Parker, Potts, Watts)

7:10

5/ Snaps (Lacy) 9:20

Recorded at Wigmore Hall, London (UK) on December 19, 1974

Steve Lacy: soprano, gramophon on (2); Trevor Watts: alto, soprano on (4);

Evan Parker: tenor, baritone saxophone on (3), soprano on (5); Steve Potts:

alto, soprano on (4); Derek Bailey (all but (4)): guitar; Michel Waisvisz

(all but (4)): electronics.

1976 - Emanem (USA), 3310 (LP)

Edited November 27, 2006 by John L

[AllenLowe]

one thing to understand in all of this is the quartet tradition - the vocal quartet is one of the oldest basic units in African American music, going back into the 19th century - Louis Armstrong and WC Handy both got their musical starts in a vocal quartet. And it's not surprising that the quartet has become the basic group formulation in everything from rock to blues to jazz, though of course we see many variations. There are, actually, "gospel quartets" with 5 or 6 members because it has become something of a generic term (think of Henry Threadgill's groups as well). So Hemphill was really drawing on a very important and powerful black tradition when he devised the sax-quartet-without-rhyhm section, which really does draw on that old vocal quartet ensemble idea. I think this was/is one of the sources of that kind of group's power - its flexibility and strength, ability to be like both a small and large band. And though I understand Liebman's comments (I don't know that particular recording) and I do agree that the "ragged" standards approach has gotten to be a little bit of a cliche, I also think his comments reflect the tension between a so-called "schooled" approach to improvisation and a more instinctive, less ordered approach. I prefer the latter, but I have known some great and very advanced musicians who, while members of an earlier avant garde, really despised the later versions of same (as a matter of fact I once did a talk at a jazz seminar called "Who Hates What and Why") -

Edited November 27, 2006 by AllenLowe

[erwbol]

It's been almost eleven years since the last post, but what a story about Julius Hemphill being forced out of the WSQ. And after all that they had the gall to record a tribute album.